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On March 07 2012 22:03 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything. An 11 pool is behind in minerals to at least the 6 minute mark. An 11 pool is behind in drones until the 4:20 mark.
At the specific time where you decide whether to place your hatch or get queens and lings with a 14 pool 16 hatch, you're quite a bit ahead of 11/18 in both departments, you can afford to go for the queens and lings instead of the hatch if you need to. An 11 pool in the same situation is behind and thus doesn't have the same freedom.
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On March 07 2012 22:03 kaluro wrote: Why is 11/18 being compared with 14/16 rather than 12/19? Is 12/19 worse than either? 12/19 seems to be the big standard.
Well, most of the time, 11/18 is a 11/19. Because the protoss put a pylon on your expand so you need 4 zerglings to kill it. Sometimes it's a 11/20 (double extractor trick) if the protoss do something weird.
I don't know the real difference between 11 or 12 pool.
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On March 07 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 22:03 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything. An 11 pool is behind in minerals to at least the 6 minute mark. An 11 pool is behind in drones until the 4:20 mark.
Yes. As this topic says : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464 But here, we are against a FFE. And you don't need to stop drone until at leat 7:30 (except again the kiwikaki zealot rush). That's what i'm saying since the beginning ^^
I already know that's the 11/18 is not a good opener agaisnt a "one base protoss". And i don't use it on metaloplis and shattered temple.
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On March 07 2012 22:03 kaluro wrote: Why is 11/18 being compared with 14/16 rather than 12/19? Is 12/19 worse than either? 12/19 seems to be the big standard. 12 pool is more or less identical to 14 pool. The pool is slightly later and 14 gives slightly better economy.
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On March 07 2012 22:10 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 22:03 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything. An 11 pool is behind in minerals to at least the 6 minute mark. An 11 pool is behind in drones until the 4:20 mark. Yes. As this topic says : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464But here, we are against a FFE. And you don't need to stop drone until at leat 7:30 (except again the kiwikaki zealot rush). That's what i'm saying since the beginning ^^ I'm discussing the specific situation where you have to decide whether to build a hatch or a queen when you do a 14/16. it's a choice you can't make when doing 11/18, which is why 14 16 is more stable. Doesn't matter if it's an FFE or not, the point is that the amount of economy you have at this key time when doing a 14/16 is really nice and makes the build good, regardless of exact math on amount of drones at X minutes etc.
The point is that pure theorycraft only gets you so far.
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I'm discussing the specific situation where you have to decide whether to build a hatch or a queen when you do a 14/16. it's a choice you can't make when doing 11/18, which is why 14 16 is more stable.
In what situation you have to make that choice ?
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On March 07 2012 22:21 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +I'm discussing the specific situation where you have to decide whether to build a hatch or a queen when you do a 14/16. it's a choice you can't make when doing 11/18, which is why 14 16 is more stable. In what situation you have to make that choice ? If you're pylon blocked when going 14/16, you can just make a queen and two pair of lings instead, take down the pylon and expand. Your expand is slightly delayed, but you used all your cash and you're perfectly fine, you were going to build that immediately after the hatch anyway, so you just switched the position of the two in your build. If you're pylon blocked doing 11/18, you have to build lings and take down the pylon to put down your hatch. Same as 14/16, yes, but the difference is that this happens too early for 11/18 to catch up to 14/16, so the whole point of going 11/18 is ruined. Having your hatch delayed and being forced to build lings suck for 11/18, it doesn't for 14/16.
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Wait...how do you have 70 drones by 8:30, is that supposed to be normal? I think the most I ever have by that time would be 60, and I don't take my 2 gas until 44 supply...
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^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Watch DRG vs genius recently, when he goes fast third in the finals games. He hits at least 75 supply every time at the 8:00 mark except on 1 game he only hit 70. It could be that your taking gas too quickly (ie your banking gas quickly) or your evo/roach warren (7:00/7:30 respectively) are too early.
Which, now that you mention it, I do find the tests a bit funny here. I hit usually 70 supply at 8:00 with 14 pool/~21 hatch with gases taken, roaches, lings, and everything, in an actual game. If the OP isn't hitting at least 70 at 8:00, either the tests are really flawed, or that just shows 14 pool is wayyyy better than 11pool.
... yea OP i think your test must be really fucked up in some way. The gases, maybe lair timing, I don't know what, but you aren't doing them right. DRG hits 75 supply with 14 pool and 16 hatch every time by 8:00. That you can't do that in a closed environment means somethings wrong.
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Maybe i takes extractors at a very wrong timing. Or maybe i'm just really noob at macro :s I take 2 gas at 6:00 and 1 more at 7:00.
When i got 100 gas, i start lair + roach warren + evo chamber When i got 100 gas again, i start zergling speed. And usually (not in this tests, i talk about my standard ZvP), i start the +1 range with the 100 next gas.
Should i do it differently ?
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some things i count in time, some in supply. im not sure what you mean. I think of when 3rd is done and queen is like halfway i get 2 gas, and then 7:00 evo/7:30 roach and scout. ~30 third. It makes a big deal how you make overlords, making them too late or too early really screws shit up. watch like a drg game and see how he does it, he manages to get 75+ every time. i always thought like 70 was the tops possible but he easily gets past that at 8:00.
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I'll check DRG vs Genius.
Do you know where can i find the vod or the replay ?
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On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3
What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !"
Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game.
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On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down.
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On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down.
...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that.
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On March 07 2012 23:32 joeyBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down. ...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that. You obviously need benchmarks to do comparisions, how could we possibly get anywhere in the discussion if we had to account for every possible dynamic? When you want to define aspects of builds, you need to compare them on even grounds, you can't compare an 11/18 when you're being 4gated to a 14 pool where your opponent forgets to build workers. So what do you do? You ignore the computer and show what the builds can do in an optimal situation. Belial just said that since he can personally do way better in real games, 60 drones at 8 minutes obviously isn't optimal, so the tests need to be redone.
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Pros players don't use often 11/18 in officials tournaments. They use it on the ladder. So i only find games "11/18 vs FFE" on livestreams. It's not really simple to compare 2 openers with a livestreams vod.
But for 15/16, you can find a tons of replay files.
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On March 07 2012 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:32 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down. ...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that. You obviously need benchmarks to do comparisions, how could we possibly get anywhere in the discussion if we had to account for every possible dynamic? When you want to define aspects of builds, you need to compare them on even grounds, you can't compare an 11/18 when you're being 4gated to a 14 pool where your opponent forgets to build workers. So what do you do? You ignore the computer and show what the builds can do in an optimal situation. Belial just said that since he can personally do way better in real games, 60 drones at 8 minutes obviously isn't optimal, so the tests need to be redone.
I'm wondering if you're missing my point. Just made my post to put some sentences into the right perspective, 'cause they seemed too "harsh" and judging, based on artificial measurements. Nothing more, nothing less. Again: What you or anyone else does, to get proper measurements, is completely his or her choice.
Just my opinion: If Lionel Messi is going to train, he isn't running over an empty field doing 10 different ways of flanking and attacking to see, which one is the most effective to score a goal. He trains these situations with Pratice Partners and Teammates over and over again, to get a feel and experience what does work and what not. [Except he is practicing free kicks or stuff like that, which would compare to train Hotkeys ] How far you can go with one thing and how another thing doesnt work. Same goes with StarCraft.
Of course we can compare builds like these all day, all night, but i think its highly recommend for lower level players like us, to watch reps of guys like DRG, doing their builds in a real environment and see how their macro develops in an effective situation. Sure, you can train like 10 times to hit a specific amount of drones or supply at mark X. But will you do it in a real game, in a situation of competition ? I dont think so. Again...im just putting out my opinion, of course this IS the only way to "mathematically" get some data, you're absolutely and 100% right. But will this help you more, instead of watching 10 to 20 DRG replays, doing a highly refined build which IS propably the best one you can choose out there ?! I dont think so...Again: MY opinion, you may respect it like i respect yours, although you dont have to agree with me.
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On March 07 2012 23:50 joeyBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:32 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down. ...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that. You obviously need benchmarks to do comparisions, how could we possibly get anywhere in the discussion if we had to account for every possible dynamic? When you want to define aspects of builds, you need to compare them on even grounds, you can't compare an 11/18 when you're being 4gated to a 14 pool where your opponent forgets to build workers. So what do you do? You ignore the computer and show what the builds can do in an optimal situation. Belial just said that since he can personally do way better in real games, 60 drones at 8 minutes obviously isn't optimal, so the tests need to be redone. I'm wondering if you're missing my point. Just made my post to put some sentences into the right perspective, 'cause they seemed too "harsh" and judging, based on artificial measurements. Nothing more, nothing less. Again: What you or anyone else does, to get proper measurements, is completely his or her choice. Just my opinion: If Lionel Messi is going to train, he isn't running over an empty field doing 10 different ways of flanking and attacking to see, which one is the most effective to score a goal. He trains these situations with Pratice Partners and Teammates over and over again, to get a feel and experience what does work and what not. [Except he is practicing free kicks or stuff like that, which would compare to train Hotkeys ] How far you can go with one thing and how another thing doesnt work. Same goes with StarCraft. Of course we can compare builds like these all day, all night, but i think its highly recommend for lower level players like us, to watch reps of guys like DRG, doing their builds in a real environment and see how their macro develops in an effective situation. Sure, you can train like 10 times to hit a specific amount of drones or supply at mark X. But will you do it in a real game, in a situation of competition ? I dont think so. Again...im just putting out my opinion, of course this IS the only way to "mathematically" get some data, you're absolutely and 100% right. But will this help you more, instead of watching 10 to 20 DRG replays, doing a highly refined build which IS propably the best one you can choose out there ?! I dont think so...Again: MY opinion, you may respect it like i respect yours, although you dont have to agree with me. If messi wants to see if he's faster than ronaldino, you have them run a few hundred meters, you don't ask them to play a soccer game each and calculate their mean speed.
It's not about it helping you more, maybe you missed out, but this isn't a thread about how to improve your amount of drones, it's a discussion about two different builds. The comparision is what matters, not how random newbs want to get better at the game.
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14/15p and then a 16 hatch is really good for straight up standard macro because if he FEE then you can 3 hatch before gas. 11p/18h i feel is a BO win or lose imho because if he is greedy and did a nexus first then you win.
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