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On February 24 2012 09:56 Dbla08 wrote: is it me or does the map pool get worse for zerg every season? Is that serious? State which maps you would rather play on that were removed.
Steppes of War, Xel'Naga Caverns, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine, Jungle Basin, Delta Quadrant, close spawns on 4 player maps, etc.
This seems to be the best map pool for zerg that has ever been out and each season has had improvements that favored zerg.
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Downvote shattered for sure. Entombed Valley is kind of annoying to play on.
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On February 24 2012 09:56 Dbla08 wrote: is it me or does the map pool get worse for zerg every season?
I feel it's better, atleast for me. Previously I had to veto maps like XNC etc that were pretty much "auto-veto" for zerg which left us with less veto's to use for maps that we just didn't like personally. Now this season I am keeping both the new maps, I am not quite sure I love them (lots of chokes on cloud kingdom, but also lots of options for zergling counters, 3rd being siegable on korhal is bad in theory but hasn't happened to me yet) but my winratio on them is very good thus far.
I veto Shattered (obvious reasons), Entombed (because I had almost no success at all in ZvP on that map) and TDA (personal pref between that and Shakuras, might switch around since shakura is the only map I have under 50% on so far this season, every other map is 65%+. I seem to get a lot of 6pools against me on that map for some reason and I suck at defending those )
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How do you guys play TDA in ZvP?
I switched my veto from entombed to TDA and was quickly reminded of close spawn ZvT... but I just goddamn hate TDA. Not to mention the 14/14 ling/bane all-ins every game, but I can't figure out ZvP on that map.
If you go fast third you just autolose basically to any mass gateway blink, which is what is pretty popular due to mutas and hey mass gate blink all-ins are common in masters. I've been going 2 base muta in TDA, but I don't have too much experience with it. I've won some, I've lost some... not sure how to really play it out.
Get lair at like 40? When i try to rush it I just have no econ and die. I don't really know how to follow it up either. You just go mass mutas and force a base trade? And unlike 3 base mutas since you forever deny 3rd it will always be a base trade? Do you even bother getting roaches? do you get mass spines, or mass lings for the base trade?
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TL really needs to add multiple-answer polls :\
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veto'd shakuras, TDA and shattered
the poll is very awkward and the results are skewed, for one why does it matter what order you veto'd the maps? I chose shakuras as #1 and shattered #3 even though the poll is favoring shattered as the #1. just doesn't make sense why the veto order would matter and thus I ruined your flawed poll.
anyways my reasoning
shakuras is awful. It's very easy to get drop/WP harassed, seems almost standard because T/P can easily turtle on 2 base and do whatever they want. Plus this map in TvZ either goes to a 2 rax bunker cheese early game or a very turtley mech game which are both awful to deal with, not to mention the siege tank abuse at your main from the cliff. P's always seem to do the same thing, some 2 base all-in with 2-3 immortals.
TDA I hate because it's really too big. I don't think zerg benefits from big maps as everyone thinks, yeah you have more time to react but you also must scout more since there are plenty of places to hide things. The natural is terrible in ZvT, siege-able and nearly unbreakable at certain points in the game. The 3rd isn't particularly fun to take either and is a pain in ZvP since you must take your 3rd rather far. ZvZ is also awful on this map.
Shattered is out just because it's the smallest 4 player map and securing a 3rd is a pain.
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On February 24 2012 17:32 emc wrote:the poll is very awkward and the results are skewed, for one why does it matter what order you veto'd the maps? I chose shakuras as #1 and shattered #3 even though the poll is favoring shattered as the #1. just doesn't make sense why the veto order would matter and thus I ruined your flawed poll.
We can't make a "multiple answers poll" It is true the notion of "order" is pretty useless, but i had no other choice than make 3 polls.
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after playing Korhal since its release i have decided to check it off. mass muta is impossible since there is no dead space and blink stalkers chew them up. and attacking a Protoss third is near impossible when they wall off one side with cannons and you are backed into an awkward corner if their army comes from the high ground.
holding a third is hard as #$#* against stargate and siege tank play as well. ( although you can burrow units on the high ground to sneak attack tanks)
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So far I'm really feeling like cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg. Am I doing something wrong on it or are other zergs getting that feeling too?
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Korhal is so choky, ZvP is impossible on it. The only open space for engagements is low ground.
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On February 25 2012 02:34 hunts wrote: So far I'm really feeling like cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg. Am I doing something wrong on it or are other zergs getting that feeling too?
you should watch the apollo videos that were linked on the b.net website. His opinion is that the map is very susceptible to runbys which is very good for zerg because there are a ton of different pathways and it's very hard for T/P to split their army and defend 3-4 different chokes. As the map goes on and the T/P need more bases, the runbys become even easier and there happen to be expansions in the corners of the map which are great for dividing your opponents attention in which base to kill.
I admit the 3rd of CK and KC aren't the best but if you spread your creep as apollo mentions then it's pretty easy. KC for instance you want to spread your creep above and around your 3rd rather than just connecting your natural to 3rd. Just remember that these maps aren't very favorable to mutas but are great for ground armies.
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On February 25 2012 02:45 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:34 hunts wrote: So far I'm really feeling like cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg. Am I doing something wrong on it or are other zergs getting that feeling too? you should watch the apollo videos that were linked on the b.net website. His opinion is that the map is very susceptible to runbys which is very good for zerg because there are a ton of different pathways and it's very hard for T/P to split their army and defend 3-4 different chokes. As the map goes on and the T/P need more bases, the runbys become even easier and there happen to be expansions in the corners of the map which are great for dividing your opponents attention in which base to kill. I admit the 3rd of CK and KC aren't the best but if you spread your creep as apollo mentions then it's pretty easy. KC for instance you want to spread your creep above and around your 3rd rather than just connecting your natural to 3rd. Just remember that these maps aren't very favorable to mutas but are great for ground armies.
I know there are lots of paths for runbys. The big issue I've been having is T can still just place some turrets and maybe a bunker/leave some marines and a tank or so and use PFs for the later expos, and P can just make canons and the expos become almost impossible to do any damage to with a runby unless you commit your whole army.
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i voted just shattered. its kinda annying because u cant take a 3rd.
i think the others are ok, entombed may not be the best map for zerg, but its ok^^
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I find that maps are tough to design appropriately. The third base always seems to be a problem for zerg (i'm zerg so maybe biased). If the 3rd base is easy, then it remains easy for terran and protoss. If it's difficult, it's difficult for zerg and a disconnected 3rd is very hard to hold. By putting rocks at the 3rd on any map, it's directly cutting into the zerg's ability to make drones. By having to make units to destroy the rocks, you're sac'ing econ, for the sake of a hatchery (econ/production). Meanwhile, terran and protoss econ + army rise steadily thus always giving them a means to destroying rocks. I'm not sure what the best solution for this is, or if it's an inherent flaw in the design of the game. What do you think?
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i think the others are ok, entombed may not be the best map for zerg, but its ok^^
Are you seriously okay with close spawn ZvT on entombed?
Or siege tanks hitting your main from third/third from main on Antiga? Not to mention another close spawn map?
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Vetod Entombed Valley because horizontal spawns are nothing but a bad joke, no sane person can argue against this IMO. Also vetod Taldarim because of the rocks at the third and tank pushes to the natural.
Antiga is also annoying to play on oftentimes since non-cross positions almost always play a significant role during a match. However it's not as bad as with Entombed Valley. I'm also starting to dislike Korhal, mainly because it is almost impossible to get a fifth base running.
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