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Hi! Mid-low masters terran here, Been playing since the beta.
Currently im having a difficult time with TvZ, Here is a basic rundown of the game. I go 111, I wall off my front with supply depos so no scouting information is given, I go reactor hellion into cloak banshees (Yes It is forgg's build)
This worked really well for about a month, However Zergs are learning that they can hold off literally any pressure thrown at them by getting several blind spine crawlers, Spore crawlers in every base. A good mass of zerglings, and 3-5 queens.
What happens in my games: I start off with some early pressure with the hellions, only to find 3 spine crawlers in their base with a queen and about 10 zergling defending, I proceed to play safe, kill creep tumors, and poke where i see an opening.
at about the 8 minute mark, my first 2 banshees with cloak roll in, but there are already spore crawlers littered through-out the bases of the zerg player. At most, i will get a queen or two and then have to back up with my banshees at 1/2 health.
This is where i get to my point in case.
EXHIBIT A)
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-source.com/image/unitdatabase/unit/155.jpg?lastUpdated=1289410341)
This is a spine crawler, Even the name invokes fear into all those who hear its name! This defense is good not because of the damage so much, but as it controls the space of where the units of terran can attack safely. Hellions tremble in its quake, marines get 2 shotted, and marauders just arent that good against zerglings, this leaves the reaper, with its incredibly long build time of 45 seconds, it just isnt that viable.
EXHIBIT B)
![[image loading]](http://thesavvygamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/queen.jpg)
This is a Zerg queen. With its beefy life and double attack, it does a great job against hellions, ok against marines and not so good against marauders, however maruaders, just arent that good against zerglings, also this unit has the most incredible (yet very necessary and important AA attack) Several of these guys can wipe out small bunches of hellions and a lot of banshees.
EXHIBIT C)
![[image loading]](http://starcraft2bg.net/images/units/182878514-spore_crawler.jpg)
This odd looking contraption is really more than just a tube with legs, its a tube with legs that SPIT STUFF! The reason this puppy is so difficult to deal with, is because it can move, so the longest something is undefended is about 10 seconds. That might sound like a lot of time, but it really isn't, also the spore crawler really only has importance until the mutas come out.
EXHIBIT D)
+ Show Spoiler +
The zergling is really good due to its short build time, speed and ability to mass quickly. zerglings are good at dealing with anything that the terran can dish out before the 10 min mark. Making a lot of zerglings early game has gotten very popular recently and its easy to see why, only a large amount of marines or hellions can dispatch these little guys quickly
Basically what i'm trying to say is, zerg has really done a marvelous job of learning how to drag the game into their strongest attribute (the late game). The era of zergs is on the rise, and only getting stronger. The ability to punish a zerg early game is fleeting.
TL;DR: I need help with aggressing zerg early game.
Replays http://drop.sc/80767
http://drop.sc/80767 <--- + Show Spoiler +I won this game, However i feel like i won because my opponent was bad, not so much i was good. spire at 13 minutes?
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You never talked about 2rax, which honestly is still viable, but for some reasons Terrans have completely stopped using it.
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Opening 111 against Zerg just isn't the same as in TvP and TvT. Try a more economical build. I feel like you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
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I agree with pretty much everything in the OP. I am a diamond Terran and I also do fOrGG's 1/1/1 cloaked banshees build. The only thing I disagree with is you putting zerglings on such a high pedestal. They aren't really that good early game.
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On December 29 2011 13:43 Dispersion wrote:
You never talked about 2rax, which honestly is still viable, but for some reasons Terrans have completely stopped using it.
Yeah, But its very all in, if it gets shut down then we are very behind
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Predictability.
As a zerg, every terran on the ladder opens with a variation of reactor hellions. Either be it more hellions or drops, or marauders. The responses to these are roughly the same.
The 2 rax pressure never stopped working (it's still the bane of idra) and is even to this date extremely annoying :D
1 rax expand and go for a really heavy marine tank timing push once your eco has kicked in. You could start by hiding your rax boxer style, which will force the zerg to prepare for proxy raxes or invest a lot into scouting atleast.
Also I noticed that you seem to think that your harass has to get inside his base and do damage there. It doesn't. Having hellions outside the zerg to kill creeptumors and him not getting a third base is HUGE damage. Let your hellions stay alive and save them. If people read your banshee play too easily, then I'd suggest you just cut it.
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I used to feign reactor hellion and go for a early siege push, with an expo comming. I'm random though so most zs go pool first not sure how that would change the situation, now I just one rax expand since they pool first.
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On December 29 2011 13:47 ThirDilemma wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 13:43 Dispersion wrote:
You never talked about 2rax, which honestly is still viable, but for some reasons Terrans have completely stopped using it. Yeah, But its very all in, if it gets shut down then we are very behind
2 rax is far less all-in that a 1-1-1 cloaked banshee opener. 2 rax is, in fact, not all-in at all. I think you might not really understand what you're talking about so much.
How is it that your hellions arrive to 3 spines and 10 zerglings? At this point, you should be way ahead and can just drop an expansion down, because your first 2 hellions should arrive way before this is possible, therefore you have forced 10 zerglings and done considerable damage already by forcing 3 spines. Similarly, once you show your hellions, if you don't have an expansion, it is a tell that you are going for some one base shenanigans which forces spore crawlers, and therefore the zerg is prepared when you go there. Assuming you do no damage with your hellions, your cloak banshee followup is always going to be weak unless the zerg got very greedy.
There is no way a zerg gets 3-5 queens, speed, 3 spine crawlers, and 10 zerglings by the time your first 2 hellions are out, and if so... he is so far behind that you can expand.
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Update: i am now 2/2 with the 2rax opening. 
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God you are such a bad player. "Oh noes! Im having trouble in the late game after opening with my one base tech build! Zerg is op and is only getting oper! I know! I'll make a thread on TL with a bunch of pictures of units that people see 100 times a day!"
User was temp banned for this post.
User was temporarily forum banned for this post.
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This might be frowned upon but as a Terran player who gets matched with low master players my advice would be to do some crazy 2 rax stuff. One of the new maps has the third base super close to the natural and it's elevated so it's ideal for a proxy rax. Maybe build an engineering bay in their natural too if that's what you feel is giving you a hard time. If you do a proxy rax try blocking their ramp with a bunker or two and float the proxy rax to get the high ground vision. You're right that Zerg is strongest late game so my advice is to do whatever you can to prolong the early game by doing insane pressure.
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Your mindset is flawed. You are thinking that because they can get out spines and queens and spores or even roaches, that they can stop your banshees and hellions from doing damage. That is wrong. Every spine and spore you make, you delay their third by roughly 15 seconds, or their lair by 15 seconds, or whatever.
The point of the reactor hellion + banshee PRESSURE is not to kill your opponent. It is not to kill a lot of drones, neither. The point is to deny him from getting third, so that you can take your third, by playing mech in this case, at the same time as the Zergs'. Simply taking your third at the same time as the Zerg will put you into a MASSIVE lead. If you can take it before, that's even better. You force him to put a lot of effort trying to creep his way to his third with queens so that he can actually expand, or force Roaches or spines or spores which delay his lair/spire/third even more.
The point of the thor hellion banshee follow up isn't just a strong timing. It is to 1) punish the zerg with an autowin if he techs to mutas on 2 base before he is on 3 base 2) punish the zerg if he's being too greedy (taking his 3rd and 4th really fast, or taking his third and teching to hive really fast, AKA hive starts to evolve before 15-16 minutes).
So if you are seeing lots of spines and spores, you are doing the build correctly.
This worked really well for about a month, However Zergs are learning that they can hold off literally any pressure thrown at them by getting several blind spine crawlers, Spore crawlers in every base. A good mass of zerglings, and 3-5 queens.
Zergs are not learning how to hold off pressure. They are learning how to stop being killed by hellion/banshee expand.
Basically what i'm trying to say is, zerg has really done a marvelous job of learning how to drag the game into their strongest attribute (the late game). The era of zergs is on the rise, and only getting stronger. The ability to punish a zerg early game is fleeting.
And so this is wrong as well. The hellion/banshee expand is extremely strong. I highly recommend it over 2 rax unless maybe it's a map such as Xel'Naga Caverns where you want to push your luck and do a lot of damage with a 2 rax (like killing him with a bunker rush or contain).
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(I'm a zerg player btw) I don't see whats wrong here. you're effectively forcing the zerg to make spores and spines(those cost money+DRONES) and then you say mass zerglings. I'll pretend it's 20 lings. Thats 10 drones plus the drones of spines and crawlers. You say about 3 spines so thats 3 drones and we'll say 2 spores since they should have enough queens to do the damage and just need them to detect. that's 15 drones(btw this is wayyy overreacting as a zerg unless terran is all in with tons of marines n shit IMO). If you don't think that's a lot of drones then you are crazyyy!! You havnt even attacked yet. All you've done so far is your build. If you seee this, don't attack and just prevent them from taking a third. Blue flame is wonderful against lings so if you plan to go mech i'd get that so your hellions reign until they have muta or roaches. until then they shouldn't be able to start a third.
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On December 29 2011 14:50 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Your mindset is flawed. You are thinking that because they can get out spines and queens and spores or even roaches, that they can stop your banshees and hellions from doing damage. That is wrong. Every spine and spore you make, you delay their third by roughly 15 seconds, or their lair by 15 seconds, or whatever. The point of the reactor hellion + banshee PRESSURE is not to kill your opponent. It is not to kill a lot of drones, neither. The point is to deny him from getting third, so that you can take your third, by playing mech in this case, at the same time as the Zergs'. Simply taking your third at the same time as the Zerg will put you into a MASSIVE lead. If you can take it before, that's even better. You force him to put a lot of effort trying to creep his way to his third with queens so that he can actually expand, or force Roaches or spines or spores which delay his lair/spire/third even more. The point of the thor hellion banshee follow up isn't just a strong timing. It is to 1) punish the zerg with an autowin if he techs to mutas on 2 base before he is on 3 base 2) punish the zerg if he's being too greedy (taking his 3rd and 4th really fast, or taking his third and teching to hive really fast, AKA hive starts to evolve before 15-16 minutes). So if you are seeing lots of spines and spores, you are doing the build correctly. Show nested quote +This worked really well for about a month, However Zergs are learning that they can hold off literally any pressure thrown at them by getting several blind spine crawlers, Spore crawlers in every base. A good mass of zerglings, and 3-5 queens. Zergs are not learning how to hold off pressure. They are learning how to stop being killed by hellion/banshee expand. Show nested quote +Basically what i'm trying to say is, zerg has really done a marvelous job of learning how to drag the game into their strongest attribute (the late game). The era of zergs is on the rise, and only getting stronger. The ability to punish a zerg early game is fleeting. And so this is wrong as well. The hellion/banshee expand is extremely strong. I highly recommend it over 2 rax unless maybe it's a map such as Xel'Naga Caverns where you want to push your luck and do a lot of damage with a 2 rax (like killing him with a bunker rush or contain).
Thank you, i needed to see this.
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On December 29 2011 14:25 Carmine wrote:
God you are such a bad player. "Oh noes! Im having trouble in the late game after opening with my one base tech build! Zerg is op and is only getting oper! I know! I'll make a thread on TL with a bunch of pictures of units that people see 100 times a day!"
He never said anything about Zerg being OP, just that he was having trouble in TvZ. And not everybody sees pictures of spore and spine crawlers 100 times a day, some people don't actually play that much.
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Zerg player here ..
If all Z start building blind defense, consider a macro heavy opening without any pressure at all (maybe do some fake pressure) but some solid defense. Queens spines and spores are purely defensive, the only danger are mass lings, so get some defense up. You don't need to do damage, the metagame did it already (spore = 1 drone, spine = 1 drone, mass lings = fewer drones).
In fact i have the most trouble against macro terrans (cc first or somewhat safer FE), because i tend to play too careful because of all the agressive T openings/cheese and get behind in drones. Force the Zerg to scout, guess.
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I looked at the first replay. I don't know why you are saying the zerg is getting blind defenses. He floated an overlord into your base and saw everything. If I saw a reactor factory and a techlab starport, I'd build defenses and rush the lair too.
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going cloak banshee is simply big risk. it only pays off if zerg takes a quite some damage from it. going reactor hellion into expo or double expo is a much more solid play and can not be countered so easily.
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The reason ForGG does so well with this build is because his micro is really, really good. I tried his build once on ladder and barely won, and lost a few games after that. He simply has a ridiculous level of micro to make a lot of one base builds work, EVEN when his opponents know exactly what's going on and get very early spines/spores. Keep builds like this in your pocket, but don't do them every game.
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If your micro is not godlike, don't open this way. If your expansion isn't taken when 4-6 hellions are out a decent zerg will know a onebase play that has to do damage is coming. It allows zergs to overprepare and still be ahead.
Most top level terrans seem to approach the early game different now. Instead of thinking they have to kill stuff early, they try to force buildings/units and delay expansions while picking off what's possible without losing units(stray lings, mismicro'd queens, creeptumors). This allows the terran to macro up to 2-3 bases and have a similar economy (or even better) then the zerg, leading into a midgame where both sides have a main focus on denying expansions/expanding themself/trading favourably.
However if you expand 6-7 minutes later then your opponent and your initial attack doesn't do significant damage you'll never get to midgame on equal footing.
Btw, forgg is quite the awesome player and all; just don't take builds from his stream. It's quite obvious he just plays games to showcase & refine his micro while streaming. If you watch tslPolt for example (who seems to be trying to get n1 gm korea atm), he plays a much more solid style on his stream where you can actually learn from instead of be amazed by his micro (which also happens at times but still)(not saying polt is better then forgg but his stream is much more educational, unless you dig the whole 1 base allin thing)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://dave-xeno.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/cute_zerg.png)
