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Mod note: This thread is two years old. Please read the update to this thread before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9223188
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13955477
Original thread:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104023666
He's a retired auto worker living outside of Cleveland who is accused of being a guard at a death camp in nazi occupied Poland in WW2. I guess there's no statute of limitations in Germany, which is where the charges are being brought?
I'm not sure how I feel about this.. part of me is like.. being a prison guard in a death camp isn't something you should get away with, no matter how long after.
But then... some people think he's in such ill health that he might not even survive the trip to Germany (federal agents took him from his home.... in a wheelchair into an ambulance to take him to the airport). And there doesn't seem to be any public evidence that he even did anything... the guy claims he was a soviet prisoner of war, himself, not a guard. If it turns out he's innocent, and they dragged him away from his family, gave him hell, and maybe even shortened his already close to finished life, that would be pretty fucked up.
Is that worse than letting an assistant mass murderer have 5 more years of relative happiness?
I guess it boils down to a classic case of do you let the guilty go free sometimes to protect the innocent? But in this case the trial itself is already a punishment.. so that kindof changes things.
I'm leaning towards the stance of just leave him the fuck alone at this point. Although part of that comes from the fact that I tend to think along the lines of forgiving and moving on is generally better than clinging to the past out of a sense of revenge under a guise of justice.
But technically the letter of the law supports his deportation and trial.
Well, something to think about...
+ Show Spoiler +
Hey Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his counts of accessory to murder?
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Its .. Its OVER NINE-THOUSANND
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hes not gonna do anything else. leave him alone imo.
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United States20661 Posts
Mildly ridiculous. Even if he were guilty, this is simply accelerating the process of natural death by what? a decade, at the absolute upper limit?
To think of the massive costs of flying him around and providing medical care for him and the legal representation of both sides... it's simply not worth it for one damn prison guard.
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Yeah I felt bad about that guy after reading an article a few days back but then again, if he was a Nazi guard, does he still deserve it? I would hate for an elder to die because of something so long ago.
Btw, does anyone remember a movie about an ex Nazi, who is really old? His daughter goes on some trip and she finds clues about his past and finds some jack-in-a-box with pictures of his grandpa.
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So do they have evidence against him or not?
If I were him and I were guilty, I'd probably just confess to the damn crimes and skip the trial. Of course that's only if I were actually guilty.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 12 2009 09:45 Last Romantic wrote:
Mildly ridiculous. Even if he were guilty, this is simply accelerating the process of natural death by what? a decade, at the absolute upper limit?
To think of the massive costs of flying him around and providing medical care for him and the legal representation of both sides... it's simply not worth it for one damn prison guard.
You are looking at this from a purely capitalistic point of view. Put yourself in the perspective of a person who lost out on having a pair of grandparents.. or an entire lineage of family because of men like this man who obeyed orders to contain these people in a little pocket of hell on earth.
This man was supposed to face justice a long time ago. He didn't.. but as they say "It is better late than never."
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The man's 89, won't live for much longer, has a frickun generation of relatives to live by, and now has to fly half way across the fucking world just to see some misfit judge lay punishment on a fucking crime that's about as severe as me fucking the neighbor's dog.
Wait a minute...something's not right...
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No one is above the law?
I understand your views, but can't really go on making exceptions
"Given the history of this case and not a shred of evidence that he ever hurt one person, let alone murdered anyone anywhere, this is inhuman even if the courts have said it is lawful," Demjanjuk Jr. said.
This is just one mans opinion... but I figure the 'someone' had some good shred of evidence, I still have faith in common sense in the courts
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United States20661 Posts
On May 12 2009 09:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 09:45 Last Romantic wrote:
Mildly ridiculous. Even if he were guilty, this is simply accelerating the process of natural death by what? a decade, at the absolute upper limit?
To think of the massive costs of flying him around and providing medical care for him and the legal representation of both sides... it's simply not worth it for one damn prison guard. You are looking at this from a purely capitalistic point of view. Put yourself in the perspective of a person who lost out on having a pair of grandparents.. or an entire lineage of family because of men like this man who obeyed orders to contain these people in a little pocket of hell on earth. This man was supposed to face justice a long time ago. He didn't.. but as they say "It is better late than never."
What I find curious is that the Germans are going to all this trouble to try him - in America, yes, we consider someone at the end of their lifespan to be just as alive as someone in their 20-something heyday [and therefore 90+% of healthcare costs are spent in the last year of life] but the Europeans don't seem to harbor such concern for 80+ seniors.
I digress. It just seems odd to prosecute a possible German veteran who was most likely conscripted into the business in the first place. It's not like the man had a choice as to his posting, either: a soldier sent to the front lines in Normandy would not be censured, whereas a soldier sent to guard an internment camp should be?
I understand that their roles are different; one is killing noncombatants while the other is killing enemy soldiers, but a soldier's place is not to question his orders - he's got no choice. It's well and all to say that your human compassion wouldn't allow you to stand guard over a concentration camp, but the vast majority of prison guards were likely pressed into service.
And where do you draw the line for 'accessory to murder'? One might argue that the soldier who fights against the liberating Allies actively does more to allow the Holocaust than the prison guard who sits in his tower and keeps the Jews from escaping.
What's most striking is that they're flying the guy out and going to all this trouble when there's a high likelihood that the man isn't even a German soldier in the first place. I don't see why they can't confirm in their records before shipping the poor old man around.
edit: nvm lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk ship the guy out
edit2: I still think if he was just some generic guard then I would disagree with the ruling, but looking at his history I'm fairly sure he's guilty of some notoriety [if Jewish prisoners can recognize him as some infamous terror guard.. yeah.]
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Wait, he didn't chose to be a fucking guard, he doesn't deserve it..
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On May 12 2009 09:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 09:45 Last Romantic wrote:
Mildly ridiculous. Even if he were guilty, this is simply accelerating the process of natural death by what? a decade, at the absolute upper limit?
To think of the massive costs of flying him around and providing medical care for him and the legal representation of both sides... it's simply not worth it for one damn prison guard. You are looking at this from a purely capitalistic point of view. Put yourself in the perspective of a person who lost out on having a pair of grandparents.. or an entire lineage of family because of men like this man who obeyed orders to contain these people in a little pocket of hell on earth. This man was supposed to face justice a long time ago. He didn't.. but as they say "It is better late than never."
Two important things here though:
1) Germans were virtually all conscripted to service. You didn't go, you or your family was gonna pay. (I'm sure you know this though)
2) The evidence is, from what I understand, weak and doesn't really prove he did anything.
Really, this is more political than anything. Most people are gonna want him dealt with regardless, because of the association of him with all the shit that went down, but it's not like he was an officer.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I know people like to fall back on the "just obeying orders" argument especially in regard to Nazi veterans but I am sorry.. that just doesn't fly with me.
And save me the "you weren't there, you don't know" argument as well. None of us were there, we are all speculating. That is a huge part of the forum. After all, very few of us are professional bw players yet here we are mostly discussing just that!
He didn't decide to be a guard at an internment camp but he was. On some level that is incredibly unfair but that is life. Sometimes you accidentally hit someone with your car, that doesn't mean justice simply turns away. The penalty might be less severe.. and in this case he probably won't be put to death. But the fact remains, he participated in something that was heinous and atrocious. Whether he decided to do it willfully or not he was an active participant in acts against humanity.
Guess who else didn't choose this fate? The 29k jews that were slaughtered in the camp he guarded.
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United States20661 Posts
Accidentally hitting someone with your car (assuming it is actually accidental and not criminal negligence/aggressive driving on your part) is not punishable by law. Manslaughter and such only results if you fucked up in some way.
In this case it's more like 'I was born in Germany' versus 'I was born in an Allied country' determining his fate (assuming he is an anonymous guard and not a super legendary killer). Whether or not he's doing it willfully is key: if the options are 'let myself and my family get killed' versus 'do what the government tells me', it's not even a choice for most people.
I'm curious as to why the 'just obeying orders' doesn't work.
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On May 12 2009 10:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I know people like to fall back on the "just obeying orders" argument especially in regard to Nazi veterans but I am sorry.. that just doesn't fly with me.
And save me the "you weren't there, you don't know" argument as well. None of us were there, we are all speculating. That is a huge part of the forum. After all, very few of us are professional bw players yet here we are mostly discussing just that!
He didn't decide to be a guard at an internment camp but he was. On some level that is incredibly unfair but that is life. Sometimes you accidentally hit someone with your car, that doesn't mean justice simply turns away. The penalty might be less severe.. and in this case he probably won't be put to death. But the fact remains, he participated in something that was heinous and atrocious. Whether he decided to do it willfully or not he was an active participant in acts against humanity.
Guess who else didn't choose this fat? The 29k jews that were slaughtered in the camp he guarded.
I'm going to assume the second to last sentence here was a typo, but it's just ironic coming from you and all the shit you get =p
I met a guy who was a nazi soldier (medic and messenger, tad different) whose father was in a camp for six months because he was against Hitler. He got off easy compared to most. That doesn't change your perspective there??
I mean, this is a whole lot different than the bullshit with the death penalty and people being worried about innocents getting convicted. This is a guy with scant evidence getting thrown to the fire become of political pressure from Jews (and Germans who are trying to do everything they can to correct a wrong) who want to see anyone associated with this in any way taken to task, regardless of the circumstances.
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On May 12 2009 09:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 09:45 Last Romantic wrote:
Mildly ridiculous. Even if he were guilty, this is simply accelerating the process of natural death by what? a decade, at the absolute upper limit?
To think of the massive costs of flying him around and providing medical care for him and the legal representation of both sides... it's simply not worth it for one damn prison guard. You are looking at this from a purely capitalistic point of view. Put yourself in the perspective of a person who lost out on having a pair of grandparents.. or an entire lineage of family because of men like this man who obeyed orders to contain these people in a little pocket of hell on earth. This man was supposed to face justice a long time ago. He didn't.. but as they say "It is better late than never."
anyone who thinks like this should check out the milgram experiment. The majority of sane people are programmed to follow orders no matter what. Not justifying the actions, but justifying the 'I was under orders' defence.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
[edit]got it![edit]
I understand that the Nazi's went after you/your family when you disagreed with them or outright refused to participate. Sounds like an impossible situation yes? I hope to God nobody is ever in that situation again.. but if someone should ever find them self in the situation where they can be a part of an organization hell bent on purging the earth of a people, enslaving the rest and ruling the planet with a fascist fist they opt to do everything in their power to not aid and abide and instead jeopardize their life, perhaps even their families life in the name of humanity.
Gonna sound like silly philosophical talk to a lot of people who would cling to the "you'd do anything to save your family." And perhaps you are right, but sitting here in a position where I don't have to make that choice I will go ahead and say that the greater choice wasn't made. Would I make the same choice as him? Perhaps, but if it ended up being that I was on the losing end of said cause I'd think someone would want justice for what I helped do.
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It's completly hilarious. Those were war times. War is not pretty. People being prosecuted for war crimes commited more than 60 years ago should be let them be.
IMO war crimes are fucking ridiculous. If you're in a war you're not going to "humanly kill" the opposition. You just want to kill them.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable.
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EPT
