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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On May 12 2009 10:28 Night[Mare wrote:
It's completly hilarious. Those were war times. War is not pretty. People being prosecuted for war crimes commited more than 60 years ago should be let them be.
IMO war crimes are fucking ridiculous. If you're in a war you're not going to "humanly kill" the opposition. You just want to kill them.
Yeapp..
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Sweden33719 Posts
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
He's 89... He'll be dead soon, why cause his family (who have done nothing wrong) a bunch of anguish?
I dunno, it just doesn't seem worth it.
This being said, I don't care enough to invest any time into finding out what exactly he did, maybe there are people that it would be "worth it" to go after, but "random guard" doesn't cut it.
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Leave the guy alone seriously. He was a guard so what? it's not like he was a top member in the nazi party.
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On May 12 2009 10:32 Sprite wrote:
Leave the guy alone seriously. He was a guard so what? it's not like he was a top member in the nazi party.
He is apparently a man known as Ivan the Terrible who committed horrific and vicious crimes while he was a guard.
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How many people committed murder and got away with it on the allied side? It's war for god's sake. Do you honestly think that, if we had death camps for germans, there wouldn't be a steady supply of guards from england/america?
It's not like he would have done it in peace time, is it?
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Seems pretty ridiculous. Although there is a lot of disturbing information about this individual. Unfortunately, you won't get a straight story from anyone considering the history involved in this case.
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No, if it was just another guard, it'd be ok, but there seems to be evidence that he, himself committed acts of brutality of his own free will etc. I'm sure nobody wants to take the time to punish every single German guard, just the ones who committed crimes.
I think it's a waste of money at a time like this, but he does not deserve freedom in my opinion. (Assuming he is "Ivan the Terrible")
edit: ninja ;;
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On May 12 2009 10:03 Clasic wrote:
Wait, he didn't chose to be a fucking guard, he doesn't deserve it..
Since this is in the US one cannot doubt this.
The timing of this is perfect. Just as Americans largely say that it is OK for people who ordered torture and carried out the orders shouldn't be prosecuted (or alternately saying that they should be praised for it), people want to prosecute a almost parallel case when it is someone else who has done it. Americans will decisively say it is OK to prosecute a Nazi guard who was following orders, lol. edit: actually I don't know, maybe that public opinion has changed recently
Additionally unlike our CIA who had a choice in their actions this guy had no option in joining, as the above post says.
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On May 12 2009 10:45 FragKrag wrote:
No, if it was just another guard, it'd be ok, but there seems to be evidence that he, himself committed acts of brutality of his own free will etc. I'm sure nobody wants to take the time to punish every single German guard, just the ones who committed crimes.
Except for the part where all he's being tried for at this point is being a German guard, not for being "Ivan the Terrible".
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On May 12 2009 10:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable.
Inc, you got no clues what not obeying order means. Imagine yourself in 1940 in germany, being a conscript in their army. Back then there were no media to help you around, nothing... what would you do? Refuse to go in the army? You would have probably been tortured and killed plus your family would have been saw as enemy of the regime. So you get into the army then you get ordered to be a guard at a camp (how old was he back then? 20?) and what are you going to do when you get there? Obey the orders... and you're talking about illegal orders or grotesque orders, please tell me what grotesque means because i doubt this mean has personally killed any jews in caps, as for the illegal part? Illegal..? in a war? no!
I'm sure there have always been people in nazi army who didn't want to fight the allies but they had to. I'm sure there were people in the russian army who didn't want to fight the nazis but they had to. I'm sure there were americans that didn't want to fight in vietnam but they had to. A part of them committed suicide as it was probably the only way out, the others just had to do what they've been told. That's how the military works, it simply wouldn't have worked if people were questioning orders and refusing to fight.
And now when he's almost gone, they help his end come faster. Of course he was guilty, at least indirectly of supporting that horrible regime but as guilty were every germans living back then who were working in factories and making bombs and aircrafts and everyone else for the sole reason that they were indirectly supporting the regime. Should every american be guilty of the murders some have done in iraq?
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On May 12 2009 10:52 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 10:45 FragKrag wrote:
No, if it was just another guard, it'd be ok, but there seems to be evidence that he, himself committed acts of brutality of his own free will etc. I'm sure nobody wants to take the time to punish every single German guard, just the ones who committed crimes. Except for the part where all he's being tried for at this point is being a German guard, not for being "Ivan the Terrible".
How fucking terrible is he now? I mean what in the name of the flying fuck.
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On May 12 2009 10:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable.
Should Americans be held accountable for Hiroshima? That was fucking grotesque wouldnt you say? What about allied bombings of German cities killing a half million innocent civilians? Should the soldiers involved in those incidents be held responsible as well?
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On May 12 2009 10:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable.
Incontrol its not about it. What im trying to say is: this is war. It's fucking hilarious to put up a bunch of "rules" in which you can act or not while in war. They chose to murder brutally for something, call it fear, example w/e. If you want to take a piece of 'em, do it while still in war, not 657357 years later.
and of course, this is because they were on the losing side. I dont see any allied soldier being prosecuted for brutally murdering german captives / tourturing them etc. Just imagine the nazi party winning. Who would be the ones being prosecuted?
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Punishing row soldiers from an old war is hardly fair. It's not like they had a choice in the first place. Not to mention, that war is done and buried. The guilty (and the "guilty") have been brought to justice (or mostly killed), winners have written the history and there's nothing left there. The crimes are simply too old to punish anyone for anymore; they should merely act as a reminder for the future. This is just dumb.
Oh yeah, and let's not forget that he's done nothing criminal with his life at any point. He's never broken the law in the country he's lived in. He's mostly being punished for having survived.
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On May 12 2009 10:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I know people like to fall back on the "just obeying orders" argument especially in regard to Nazi veterans but I am sorry.. that just doesn't fly with me.
And save me the "you weren't there, you don't know" argument as well. None of us were there, we are all speculating. That is a huge part of the forum. After all, very few of us are professional bw players yet here we are mostly discussing just that!
He didn't decide to be a guard at an internment camp but he was. On some level that is incredibly unfair but that is life. Sometimes you accidentally hit someone with your car, that doesn't mean justice simply turns away. The penalty might be less severe.. and in this case he probably won't be put to death. But the fact remains, he participated in something that was heinous and atrocious. Whether he decided to do it willfully or not he was an active participant in acts against humanity.
Guess who else didn't choose this fate? The 29k jews that were slaughtered in the camp he guarded.
if someone were going to kill you and your family if you didn't obey orders, you would do it, don't try the self-righteous shit, when you're on the spot things are different and you shouldn't be held accountable for something like that if you had no morally sound choice
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On May 12 2009 11:01 Night[Mare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 10:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable. Incontrol its not about it. What im trying to say is: this is war. It's fucking hilarious to put up a bunch of "rules" in which you can act or not while in war. They chose to murder brutally for something, call it fear, example w/e. If you want to take a piece of 'em, do it while still in war, not 657357 years later. and of course, this is because they were on the losing side. I dont see any allied soldier being prosecuted for brutally murdering german captives / tourturing them etc. Just imagine the nazi party winning. Who would be the ones being prosecuted?
Guerilla warfare used to be considered dishonorable, line up and take the shot like a man!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 10:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I know people like to fall back on the "just obeying orders" argument especially in regard to Nazi veterans but I am sorry.. that just doesn't fly with me.
And save me the "you weren't there, you don't know" argument as well. None of us were there, we are all speculating. That is a huge part of the forum. After all, very few of us are professional bw players yet here we are mostly discussing just that!
He didn't decide to be a guard at an internment camp but he was. On some level that is incredibly unfair but that is life. Sometimes you accidentally hit someone with your car, that doesn't mean justice simply turns away. The penalty might be less severe.. and in this case he probably won't be put to death. But the fact remains, he participated in something that was heinous and atrocious. Whether he decided to do it willfully or not he was an active participant in acts against humanity.
Guess who else didn't choose this fate? The 29k jews that were slaughtered in the camp he guarded.
its incredibly unfair on pretty much every level
you know they hunted and killed deserters right? dude's probably got a family and shit, maybe he was drafted
i don't necessarily mean that's definitely the case, for all i know this guy could have been smiling and high-fiving his nazi fuckbuddies. i just don't think it should be as simple as 'you were on the wrong side when it happened so fuck you' 
i mean under these circumstances, you're in a warzone 24/7, where exactly does the point come where you're willing to say 'this is too wrong for me, please put a bullet in my head'
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A friend of the family:
Send his ass to jail. He has been photographed walking around and is in a wheelchair to cover up in hopes he isn't deported. But alas, in the end we all have to face the same judge.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 12 2009 11:17 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 10:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I know people like to fall back on the "just obeying orders" argument especially in regard to Nazi veterans but I am sorry.. that just doesn't fly with me.
And save me the "you weren't there, you don't know" argument as well. None of us were there, we are all speculating. That is a huge part of the forum. After all, very few of us are professional bw players yet here we are mostly discussing just that!
He didn't decide to be a guard at an internment camp but he was. On some level that is incredibly unfair but that is life. Sometimes you accidentally hit someone with your car, that doesn't mean justice simply turns away. The penalty might be less severe.. and in this case he probably won't be put to death. But the fact remains, he participated in something that was heinous and atrocious. Whether he decided to do it willfully or not he was an active participant in acts against humanity.
Guess who else didn't choose this fate? The 29k jews that were slaughtered in the camp he guarded. if someone were going to kill you and your family if you didn't obey orders, you would do it, don't try the self-righteous shit, when you're on the spot things are different and you shouldn't be held accountable for something like that if you had no morally sound choice
read the thread before posting.. I already addressed that very issue. You'd have to ignore the post to get where you did.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 12 2009 10:57 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2009 10:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable. Should Americans be held accountable for Hiroshima? That was fucking grotesque wouldnt you say? What about allied bombings of German cities killing a half million innocent civilians? Should the soldiers involved in those incidents be held responsible as well?
Had we lost the war we WOULD be held accountable.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20090502/i/r1826793855.jpg?x=327&y=345&q=85&sig=7KQd6Zu2gFr8x5TxbnKRfQ--)
