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[G] Zerg econ management + bonus Terran section

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 02:53:26
September 17 2008 02:26 GMT
#1
I've seen a lot of questions posted here on zerg econ management. How many drones do I need? What do I do with my excess minerals? How come my opponent can produce so much shit with so few workers?

I used to build as many drones as I can get away with. But when I hit B-, my opponents started to out macro me consistently. Several times I've been told by my opponents that I make too many drones, which was really confusing to me. But the idea is simple, if you make more workers than you need, eventually you end up having lots of excess minerals in the bank for no good purposes, but in the mean time you waste valuable resources and time making workers, and your army is smaller than it should be.

Recently, I played a good Korean zerg who later taught me the 9 pool build like I've never seen it before, and what amazed me was how calculated and exact his econ management was, perfect, not a single drone more than he needs, not a single drone less. That exactness of Koreans in their econ management is precisely why they can pump out so many more units. So, afterward I did an experiment with all zerg units and figured out the amount of income needed to maintain constant production of each unit. And I will put all my findings into this zerg econ guide to share it with others. Be reminded that my max rank was B- a couple seasons ago, so I'm not gosu or anything, just hope this helps.


How many drones do I need to maintain constant production of a ..... from 1 hatchery?


Drone: 3 drones mining minerals

Zergling: 3 drones mining minerals (duh, it costs 50 minerals just like the drone)

Overlord: this unit is unique since you don't constantly produce it....you just need to start a new one when the old one pops out. 2 drones per overlord is good, if later in the game you need to make 2 overlords every round, then 4 drones, no more will be needed, ever.

Hydralisk: 6 drones on minerals + 1 drone on gas ( remember, we are talking about 1 hathcery)

Mutalisk: 4 drones on minerals + 3 drones on gas. It should be noted that this combo gives you the same amount of minerals as gas, 100/100 for muta, and the same combo is used for lurker and ultralisk.

Note, in zvz for muta/ling combo, it's 6 drones on minerals + 3 drones on gas per hatchery, mainly because mutas are limited by gas, not larva, so you will have excess larva and no gas for the zergling.

Scourge: 1 drone on mineral + 3 drones on gas. This unit is only constantly produced in the ling/scourge strategy in zvz. And for that 3 drones on minerals + 3 drones on gas should maintain constant production of ling/scourge from 1 hatchery.

Queen: Omitted from experiment due to lack of use.

Lurker: 4 drones on minerals + 3 drones on gas. This includes the hydralisk cost.

Defiler: 3 drones on minerals + 3 drones on gas, you get a little excess minerals, but 2 drones on minerals is not enough.

Ultralisk: 4 drones on minerals + 3 drones on gas.


How to make use of this information strategically?

Nowadays every game looks like one you have seen many times before, and the reason is because the Korean exactness is taking over the game. Every build they use has a hidden econ side that not everyone notices, but if you look into it you will find that every build ultimately yields the exact amount of workers needed for the strategy of that build. I will do a complete build analysis later. But here let's consider some simple cases:

I want to do mass hydra so how many drones do I need?


Well, to maintain constantly production of hydras from 1 hatch, you need 6 drones on minerals + 1 drone on gas (see section above). So it really depends on how many hatches you want to have in your particular strategy.

If you are doing a 2 hatch hydra break, once the upgrades are done, you can take off a drone from the gas, and have 14 on minerals + 2 on gas. (6 per hatch for hydra + 2 for overlord) If you are doing a 5 hatch mass hydra, then you need 5*6+2=32 drones on minerals and 5 drones on gas. Calculating this way gets you the exact amount of drones you need, and then you can maximize your army size.


It's zvz and I never know when to make drones and when to make units?


Simple, if you want to do ling/scourge, multiply the amount of hatcheries you want by the drone combo, 3 drones on minerals + 3 on gas. So if you are doing 1 base ling/scourge with 2 hatcheries, you need 6 drones on minerals and 3 on gas.

If you have 3 hatcheries and 2 bases, and you want to do muta/ling, you will need 6+6+3=15 drones on minerals and 6 drones on gas. Where is the overlord? Well, due to the intense nature of zvz, you can always skip a couple of lings to make an overlord, the only thing that matters is the amount of mutas you have anyway. But if you think your opponent won't be aggressive and you want steady growth, by all means add 2 drones for that overlord.

The same calculation can be done for any unit combo. So, if you woke up one morning and a nice strategy comes to mind, you can now easily calculate how many drones you need to make that strategy happen!

Case Study - zvt 3 hatch muta build analysis

Let's first calculate how many drones you need for this strategy. We know that the muta contain is only a transition phase into lurker/ling, then when hive comes, you expo and add defiler into the army, and when you secure more gas, and your carapace up is looking good, switch to ultra/ling.

Too much depends on the actual game so we won't do this match up to the end game, but unless somethings goes horribly wrong with your muta harass, you should enter a 5 hatch lurker/ling phase without any problem. Since lurker production is limited by gas, not larva, with 3 gas you can keep 3 hatches producing lurkers, which equals to 4*3=12 drones on minerals + 3*3=9 drones on gas; now you have no more gas, but you want to keep 5 hatches pumping lings (again, lurker production will yield excess larva for the hatchery since it's limited only by gas), that means 3*5=15 additional drones. Don't forget the overlord, that's another 2 drones on minerals. Let's sum things up, we have 12+15+2=29 drones on minerals, plus the 9 drones on gas for a grand total of 38 drones. But wait! you want to expo again sometimes, right? Put another 3 drones on minerals to afford your 4th expo, and when the expo is up, add more drones depending on whatever strategy you want to use for the end game.

So, that is our analysis. Do the pros actually do that? Let's work through a typical 3 hatch muta build. (There are billions of pro replays out there that feature the exact same 3 hatch muta build, you can find a rep yourself...)

12 hatch
11 pool
14 hatch
16 gas
25 gas
Spire when lair finishes
33 hatch (note that if you made 3 sunkens you will not be able to afford this, cuz you spent it on 2 of your sunkens...)
Shoot up to 35 supply, then make 3 overlords. Overlords finish at the same time as your spire, and you should have 900/900 to pop the mutas, yeah yeah everyone knows...

Assume that you lost no units for the sake of easy calculation. After 11 mutas your supply should be at 35+22=57. Subtract the mutas and 12 zerglings you should have 29 drones, 6 of which are on gas, so 23 on minerals. Looking at our goal of 29 drones on minerals + 9 on gas, are we only 9 drones short? Not quite, remember that a drone is lost for every building you make. At this point we need a hydralisk den, an evolution chamber, another geyser, another hatchery, plus a queens nest, and in all likelihood another 2 sunkens, so that is 7 drones lost that we have to replace, plus the 9 we needed earlier for a total of 16 drones that you need to make.

Coming back to the build analysis, at 57 supply where we left off you are gonna use 6 drones on buildings (queen's nest is usually gotten at the same time as lurkers, so that's after you make your hydras), that puts your supply back to 51, and after making 13 drones while you are muta harassing, at 64 supply it is time to make hydras and go lurker/ling like we wanted. Later, you can add a 3 more drones to meet your production requirement, and make a few additional drones for more buildings and save money to expo again. In fact, a lot of progamers go to 68 supply before they make hydras, but understand that it requires gosu muta micro to contain the terran for your delayed lurkers, and I don't recommend it unless you are feeling good about your muta harass, much easier is to make lurkers first, and then add a few drones. The econ boost from a few earlier drones is significant at the pro level, but not to most of us.

OK, that concludes our zerg econ guide, I've given you the drones needed for each unit, walked you through some simple calculations so you can use the numbers for yourself, and I've analyzed the econ side of the popular 3 hatch muta build as a case study. The rest is up to you. I hope I can improve myself with this new insight, and I hope you guys can benefit from it as well. GGs


Bonus Terran Section:


This might look counter-intuitive, aren't you helping the zergs you might ask? Well, I'm trying to help the whole community, it's just that I play zerg and I'm not familiar with the other races' econ management. But I've done some work on the Terrans as well.

Marine: 3 scvs on minerals

Bat/Medic: 3 scvs on minerals + 1 scv on gas

Vulture: 4 scvs on minerals

Tank: 5 scvs on minerals + 2 scvs on gas (Note that in terran production the unit's production time is the time you have to wait before making the next one, unlike the zerg where all larva spawn equally fast. So, theoretically, 6 scvs on minerals + 3 scvs on gas will get you the same amount, but your tank won't finish in the factory so you can't make the next one right away, that leads to excess money, which means you wasted time on extra scvs, and your army is not as big as it could be.)

Science Vessel: (god I hate this unit...irradiate is so imba) 2 scvs on minerals + 3 scvs on gas.

Goliath: Omitted due to laziness, hey I'm not responsible for you Terrans.

Battle Cruiser/ wraith/ valkyrie: Omitted due to laziness.

I do want to note however, that zerg has the highest mining efficiency due to it's expansion tendencies, and mining efficiency doesn't really affect zerg. But a terran will experience diminishing mining efficiency, so when you do the calculations, make sure you add a few scvs to balance out the efficiency factor. I know pros make about 4-5 more scvs for that purpose.

So if you are the terran who always has 3000 minerals in the bank and you never have big enough of an army, always miss your attack timing due to army size, it is likely that you are making too many scvs. Do the calculations yourself to see if that is the case. If not, you need to practice keeping all your barracks flashing all the time...that's not what this guide is for. Peace
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 02:33:38
September 17 2008 02:32 GMT
#2
Cool guide, thanks smi.lols
it's a bit too specific and I can only see some limited use as people won't count everything so exactly but it could give a general feel of what people need good testing
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
September 17 2008 02:41 GMT
#3
Amazing... Its way to indepth. :D
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 03:21:29
September 17 2008 02:47 GMT
#4
Damn, so many mistakes, I think I've corrected most of them at this point. If you find any more mistakes either in calculation or interpretation. Let me know and I'll correct it.

Wolf, Iike Artosis said in his guide "The Difference between Koreans and Foreigners", he mentioned that Koreans practice the same thing over and over again. And that is the point, it's not realistic to calculate everything in game, but if you practice it over and over again, the numbers will become natural to you, and you can get a good estimate in any situation by intuition alone based on experience.

In fact, in both Savior and JD's FPVODs, I noticed that both of them sometimes selected all their drones at each base, it can only mean that they are counting and calculating their next step.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
Underwhelmed
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States207 Posts
September 17 2008 03:03 GMT
#5
This is really useful information, but I'm a little confused - If the lurker cost includes the hydralisk cost, how can it be only 4 drones on minerals, when hydralisk alone is 6? An ultralisk is 200/200, so how can it be supported with 4 on minerals and 3 on gas, when a mutalisk is 100/100 and needs 6/3? Something isn't adding up right here.

Anyways, thanks for the post. I've seen many references o Savior's "management style", but was always a bit confused on what exactly it meant. I used to not pump enough drones early on, and now I sometimes find myself with too many, so this guide will definitely be useful.
LeperKahn
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Romania1839 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 03:04:56
September 17 2008 03:03 GMT
#6
This helps me insanely much. Thank you.

@ ^ Good points though. It would be cool if you made that clear.
CJ Entusman #14 • http://soundcloud.com/discodinosaur • https://discosaur.bandcamp.com/
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
September 17 2008 03:09 GMT
#7
The build time is longer for ultras/lurkers.
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
September 17 2008 03:11 GMT
#8
Wow, nice. Thanks for all the work you put into this, must've taken forever lol. I'll try and keep these numbers in mind and test it out to see if it helps at all.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 03:15:38
September 17 2008 03:12 GMT
#9
Underwhelmed:

You probably read the thing before it was fully corrected, I added some notes.

For hydras, 6 + 1 gives you constant production, meaning every time a new larva comes out you make another hydra.

For lurkers, you are limited by gas, you can't make the next hydra before you get enough gas for it, and the larva spawning rate is faster. So if you have 6 + 3, after you morph your first lurker, you will have an idle larva but not enough gas for the next hydralisk, overall you will end up having excess minerals. 4 + 3 gives you the constant production of lurkers based on gas rate. And because you have excess larva, if you add 3 drones you can make zerglings, so check that section again, the total drone count should work out.

For mutas, it's like the lurkers, 4 + 3 gives you the money for the muta, but you can't make the next one before you collect 100 gas again, the idle larva that spawned faster should be made into a zergling, and it turns out that 6 + 3 can keep constant muta/ling production from 1 hatch.

The number for unit combos are different from pure units because you want to take the gas mining rate limit into account and find a way to use the idle larvas. Sorry for the confusion.


Nevake:

You are right. But again these units are limited by gas, how fast you mine gas decides how fast you can produce them. The larva regeneration rate is much faster than all of them, so you add drones to make zerglings with the idle larva.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
September 17 2008 03:14 GMT
#10

Be reminded that my max rank was B- a couple seasons ago, so I'm not gosu or anything, just hope this helps.


psh gosu
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
dream-_-
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
United States1857 Posts
September 17 2008 03:33 GMT
#11
good information to know!

one thing I would say is I think your argument for not making too many drones is a little off the way I see it, there is no such thing as too many drones. If you have too much you make more hatcheries and macro more. The issue is knowing when its 'safe' to pump up your econ and when you need to be producing units.

One of the hardest parts of playing zerg as far as I am concerned is knowing when you should be producing drones/when you should be producing units due to the lack of a main worker production building.
Polemarch
Profile Joined August 2005
Canada1564 Posts
September 17 2008 03:36 GMT
#12
I think this could be a little more useful if you consistently went with larvae spawn rate as the limit rather than gas rate. e.g. if you're playing on a map with 2+ geysers, or just have a gas expansion. e.g. if i knew i wanted to do muta ling off 2 bases with 1 hatchery worth of mutas and 1 hatchery worth of zerglings, how many drones should i have on gas between the two bases?
I BELIEVE IN CAPITAL LETTER PUNISHMENT!!!!!
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
September 17 2008 03:47 GMT
#13
dream-_-:

It has to do with timing. Of course having more drones now will yield more money later, but more importantly you want to have a maximized army at all times, so having the exact number of workers at any given time allows you to have the largest army at that time, as nothing is "wasted" on excess workers.

Also, all timing attacks absolutely depends on the exactness of workers since you only have one shot, and you really want the largest army you can possibly make for that timing window.

Polemarch:

I think gas rate is more realistic as additional gas requires more expos, and expos are not given to you without a fight, so realistically gas is the main limiting factor on unit production.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
September 17 2008 03:51 GMT
#14
On September 17 2008 11:26 w3jjjj wrote:
So if you are the terran who always has 3000 minerals in the bank and you never have big enough of an army, always miss your attack timing due to army size, it is likely that you are making too many scvs. Do the calculations yourself to see if that is the case. If not, you need to practice keeping all your barracks flashing all the time...that's not what this guide is for. Peace

lol This paragraph is the only one that I felt was informative to me but thanks for the whole guide in general as well. The last paragraph describes my play 100% and I really need to work on it.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
dream-_-
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
United States1857 Posts
September 17 2008 03:54 GMT
#15
On September 17 2008 12:47 w3jjjj wrote:
dream-_-:

It has to do with timing. Of course having more drones now will yield more money later, but more importantly you want to have a maximized army at all times, so having the exact number of workers at any given time allows you to have the largest army at that time, as nothing is "wasted" on excess workers.

Also, all timing attacks absolutely depends on the exactness of workers since you only have one shot, and you really want the largest army you can possibly make for that timing window.

Polemarch:

I think gas rate is more realistic as additional gas requires more expos, and expos are not given to you without a fight, so realistically gas is the main limiting factor on unit production.


this is true, guess i didnt read enough to see you were talking about a timing rush
ahole-surprise
Profile Joined August 2007
United States813 Posts
September 17 2008 04:33 GMT
#16
Just watched a Jaedong ZvP replay where he had like maybe 2 or 3 more drones than the number of mineral patches at each expansion, he had mass hatcheries and so many units. I think this is what's missing from foreigner ZvP, they make too many drones and they get run over by midgame push and/or they let Protoss take too many expansions. I'm going to start experimenting and focusing more on this aspect from now on.
Dimaga, the new foreigner zerg monster, seems to have a good concept of this judging by his recent replays.
Pulp can move, baby!
Equinox_kr
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States7395 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 04:43:05
September 17 2008 04:40 GMT
#17
Holy crap, this is really really indepth and really useful to know. :O

That Overlord timing, if correct, just solved like 90% of my problems with Zerg, knowing when to build Overlords, I always either build too much or too little at the worst possible times T_T
^-^
ahole-surprise
Profile Joined August 2007
United States813 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-17 04:49:18
September 17 2008 04:47 GMT
#18
On September 17 2008 12:54 dream-_- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2008 12:47 w3jjjj wrote:
dream-_-:

It has to do with timing. Of course having more drones now will yield more money later, but more importantly you want to have a maximized army at all times, so having the exact number of workers at any given time allows you to have the largest army at that time, as nothing is "wasted" on excess workers.

Also, all timing attacks absolutely depends on the exactness of workers since you only have one shot, and you really want the largest army you can possibly make for that timing window.

Polemarch:

I think gas rate is more realistic as additional gas requires more expos, and expos are not given to you without a fight, so realistically gas is the main limiting factor on unit production.


this is true, guess i didnt read enough to see you were talking about a timing rush


He's not just talking about a timing "rush", in a sense you can see the entire ZvP game as a game of macro/army timings.

Btw thanks a lot sMi.lols for sharing, this is some next-level shit for me.
Pulp can move, baby!
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
September 17 2008 04:50 GMT
#19
its too... mathematical. i think its more tuition than anything when youre making drones / army.
ahole-surprise
Profile Joined August 2007
United States813 Posts
September 17 2008 04:58 GMT
#20
How much is that tuition?

It may seem too mathematical but that's because of how complex Zerg macro really is. If you rely on just intuition, you will never be able to maximize both your economy and your army size with the same proficiency that Pros have, and that's what separates them. I have no doubt that things like this are running through Jaedong's mind constantly when he's playing ZvP, which may also explain why it took him so long to get so godly at ZvP: mechanics alone won't help with this management ability.

Pulp can move, baby!
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