EPTI wish someone would make one for protoss units lolololol
[G] Zerg econ management + bonus Terran section - Page 2
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
I wish someone would make one for protoss units lolololol | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On September 17 2008 14:38 -orb- wrote: Wow this is really interesting and in-depth. I wish someone would make one for protoss units lolololol yeah lets give the ez race more help  | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
but in all seriousness "you want your army to be maxed at all times" -smi.lols why? i find several instances where the other player plays too defensively or safe ; to not make a huge army; like when i deny scouting; i usually opt for a greedy econ or tech build i'm not trying to insult your logic or anything i just don't understand timing and "Exact" build orders too well and hoping for some enlightenment  like for example... you have like the best.. "exact" 3hatch muta build for pretty much any 1rax-> fe terran BO, but u notice terran made only 2rax and is teching super super hard, so why not dual expo, mass drone, double hydra ups and hydralurker that up; as opposed to making a ~ a dozen speedlings for the anticipated break on ur 3rd gas The econ boost from a few earlier drones is significant at the pro level, but not to most of us. i like having more drones  | ||
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
On September 17 2008 15:04 alphafuzard wrote: yeah lets give the ez race more help There is no such thing as the "easy" race it's just it's easier to start a protoss and get decent but most Protoss will cap at C iCCup level | ||
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CommanderFluffy
Taiwan1059 Posts
i've been wondering about the ratio, when to drone, timing too. keep up the good work | ||
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
All the builds that can end a game quickly and where every single unit counts when you attack. I am Terran but I play Z from time to time and will definitly test some of this builds with your information | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
First, if your army is maximized and your opponent's is not, why not just roll him over with superior numbers? If he is playing passive in his base, just match his production speed and keep pumping units. Theoretically, if you have the same production speed and you have more units to begin with, he'll never be able to catch up to you. I didn't say 3 hatch muta is good or bad, I just used it as a case study to reveal the hidden econ side in popular builds. If you want to use a different strategy, it would be good if you understand how much econ you need to execute your strategy. The numbers are intended to be used for strategic planning. Zerg-Legend: I'm still trying to find a way to use this myself lol. Right now I'm focused on calculating production speed. I'm experimenting on the other two races to learn their numbers, and when I do I should be able to tell exactly how many workers my opponent has by scouting his production facilities, and that should tell me how many drones I need to match his production. The idea here is to cut drones just slightly above the number that I need, so I can have the same production speed but keep a small econ advantage. In theory, everything else being equal, that small advantage will grow to become decisive, well, in theory. I'm testing this strategy. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
Theoretically, if you have the same production speed and you have more units to begin with, he'll never be able to catch up to you. So theoretically, all games are decided in the first 5mins, and whoever falls behind first , BO and econ management wise. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
i mean sure u might ever so slighty ahead in economy, but that won't make up for the fact you're going pure hydra( although perfectly macro'd ) vs a plethora of storms and zealots ! you would probably want to switch to lurker ling... meaning more drones less hydra for the time being, and you wouldn't be able to ... keep the maximum army requirements at that particular time ( since you are switching from hydra to lurker ling) Several times I've been told by my opponents that I make too many drones, which was really confusing to me. But the idea is simple, if you make more workers than you need, eventually you end up having lots of excess minerals in the bank for no good purposes, lurkerling > delayed +2 temp push > hydras > 7min zeal >newbie zergs Let's assume that^ for the moment... and let's assume you want the maximum army, just in case of 7min zeal , yet still have enough production, to match delayed +2 temp push for lurker ling Ok, i'm starting to grasp this idea, but is that possible? To go .. "low econ" hydra and switch to "high econ" lurker ling , you would have to stop... somewhere and pump drones; therefore you would have a a timing where his army> yours BUT ; how do we avoid that? i don't think with even the most precise of precision macro drone management you could do that v/s a veterean toss .... And therefore you mix economy... with tech... and it's literrally impossible to keep a scout alive to calculate this into the ground as the game progresses that far... so how can you be so sure what you're doing is actually putting you ahead? like for example, zvz is simple (assume 9pool vs 9pool) ; you make 1 more drone than he does, and the timing from his base to your base , makes the zergling count equal. Therefore you pull ahead and outnumber his mutas etc and win BUT in ZvZ you generally have a good idea of what he's doing, either you have speedlings running around or an overlord in his base; otherwise you wouldn't generally risk making extra drones BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERS if you are facing a completely different bo, from your own, IE overpool into mutas... vs 12hatch in main turtle, into more mutaling, you have to adjust completely different or maybe 9pool ( you made like 10lings , or something) vs 12pool sunk, ( no ling) ... way behind in economy , no way ur going to make enough drones, so you have to rely on ling pressure force more sunkens lings than need and those faster mutas to do damage and micro the muta/scourges? therefore taking the tech route like you said to reveal the hidden econ side in popular builds. it works in the popular FE vs FE strategies, but not for all cases | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've noticed this in pro replays and when I'm playing. EDIT: If Mods read this, this topic really needs to get stickied and put in the recomended guides section. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On September 17 2008 11:32 Superiorwolf wrote: Cool guide, thanks smi.lols it's a bit too specific and I can only see some limited use as people won't count everything so exactly but it could give a general feel of what people need good testing I actually believe it will prove out very usefull for those who are perfectionists and have the patience to think so indepth in advance of their games. Regarding economy, with this model you can now DO calculations yourself prior to the game, and depending on map, to establish exactly how your build order should go, and other details specifically economy related (workers and unit training facilities) All in all, this is great, thank you very much OP. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7475 Posts
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closed
Vatican City State491 Posts
There used to be a program used to create build orders via the windows menu - it calculated the gas/minerals input and provided information on time (the only drawback was the fact that it did not include the timing lost via transfer/scouting/or when your opponent would kill your drones). I forgot it name and cant find it; I found something called "evolution forge 1.62" but it's not the one I remember | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
On September 17 2008 22:23 closed wrote: I find it strange that 6 drones are needed to maintain hydras and only 4 for mutalisks :O There used to be a program used to create build orders via the windows menu - it calculated the gas/minerals input and provided information on time (the only drawback was the fact that it did not include the timing lost via transfer/scouting/or when your opponent would kill your drones). I forgot it name and cant find it; I found something called "evolution forge 1.62" but it's not the one I remember You're limited by gas in the case of mutas whereas he stated you only need 2 drones per 50 mineral things (drone/ling) so 4 per 100 mineral thing makes sense ;P | ||
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HooHa!
United States688 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
Some people are arguing for adaptation in game, well that's precisely what this guide is for. If your opponent does strange things, you want to adapt to it but you won't have a build order laid out for that particular case, this is where you run a short calculation in your head and design your own build order. For timing and army mix arguments. Every strategy has it's own timing. So depends on which build order you are using, your timing will be different in each case. For zvp everything is reactive, so the strategy you choose depends on your opponent's strategy. If you made mass hydra vs storms, that's a bad strategic choice for you, it has nothing to do with econ management, you should have scouted earlier and went for a different econ build up to support a different army mix. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
:O so specific though; does anyone really take specifics into mid game? i find myself struggling to just macro and micro , to even consider this also, i know you only mentioned the drone count; but what if let's say it's 9 minerals per expansion and you already have 9 drones; but that would affect mining time wouldn't it?so i'm assume you calculated all this just using an unsaturated mineral patch, but where there's already like 13 or so drones, wouldn't the "equation" you made , lack a bit of minerals. also, if you have more expansions, you could need even less workers, since all patches are open to mine If you made mass hydra vs storms, that's a bad strategic choice for you, it has nothing to do with econ management, you should have scouted earlier and went for a different econ build up to support a different army mix. i was just using it as a case study ; let's just say you opened with a hydra build and you scout no rush , +2 -> mass templars or w/e , and adapt into lurkerling. All toss needs to do is make a goon upgrade +1 ; kill your scout ovie, and you are in the dark Not to turn this into a "omg how to i scout toss after early game" but ... i generally don't have any scouts after my initial overlord; which is usually on a cliff and doesn't see much besides the forge either way. Let's say you went 4hatch hydra... and now you want to transition into 5hatch lurker ling. Like you said before you want to ideally have a larger army yet keep up with production rate, but realistically, in this case you would have to drone up and your army would become smaller than his, so i'm just suggesting you can't always have your army superior and yet still maintain the production speed required. As opposed to what you said, All other builds work the same way, if you follow through the build perfectly you end up having just the right number of drones to execute that strategy. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
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Kong John
Denmark1020 Posts
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