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Mafia Mini Mafia2: another miniature game of mafia

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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1 2 Next All
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
March 31 2015 20:46 GMT
#39
/in
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 07 2015 19:55 GMT
#412
I think Palmer's interpretation of GB's early post is pretty weak.
Take the post that Palmer convinces himself with:

On April 07 2015 19:39 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2015 19:33 Vivax wrote:
On April 07 2015 19:29 Palmar wrote:
On April 07 2015 19:11 Vivax wrote:
Damdred pretty hard on GB with his reasoning. Not sure if legit, he chose the worst possible explanation for GB complaining about HF vs Obi.

As if HF asking for an Obi wambulance was oh so informative lol.

The point is not whether or not what they were doing was productive. The question is whether GB was doing anything useful at all.


Define useful in a wambulance and random gif setting.

Okay clearly you're being affected by a small head syndrome.

HF and Obi were having a shitfest. I'm not arguing that. When this happens there are a few options open to a player not involved. Some of them are useful, some are useless. Here's a few options GB could have taken.

GB could have:

  • Ignored it and walked away
  • Tried to put a stop to it
  • Tried to change the subject to something more entertaining or useful
  • Joined in on the fun
  • Idly complained about it without trying to stop it or change the subject
  • Tried to glean some information from it


You'll notice that he did actually take one of the options. The problem I have is that is by fare the worst option available. By his own admission he wasn't trying to stop them, so what was he trying to achieve? He wasn't being funny, he wasn't being sociable, he wasn't trying to bring up a new subject, he wasn't scumhunting or trying to poke people further.

Why did GB post?

Two points here:

"HF and Obi were having a shitfest" - That's not right. They exchanged maybe 5 small one liners and a picture between themselves. It's a very mild scuffle / banter. If GB could be accused of "stopping" anything, it's mild banter.

"The problem I have is that is by far the worst option available" - Palmer isn't actually showing why GB is scum with this. How does this make him scum? He points out things that GB could have done, and then concludes that by act of omission GB must be scum. How? There's a huge logical gap there.

This type of weak reasoning could easily be applied to anyone else on those pages, and again, we are talking about day 1 early game banter here.

Palmer's analysis is weak because he is either exaggerating or misconstruing what GB said and did, and is suggesting GB is scum without actually giving a reason why he is scum.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 07 2015 20:10 GMT
#420
On April 08 2015 05:05 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2015 20:44 GlowingBear wrote:
Palmar, being unfunny doesn't make me Mafia
If you think I had the intention of stopping discussion, you basically assume that I was protecting someone. If so, I'm automatically Mafia with one of them.
Thinking through a Mafia perspective, if I see two townies discussing, I won't interfere so they can tunnel each other.

So, you have to tell me who is my partner with them, or your argument simply doesn't hold water

Worst post in the thread award goes to GB for this pile of scummy shit.

Could you please explain how this post is alignment indicative?
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 07 2015 21:45 GMT
#452
On April 08 2015 05:23 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2015 05:10 DreadReturn wrote:
On April 08 2015 05:05 yamato77 wrote:
On April 07 2015 20:44 GlowingBear wrote:
Palmar, being unfunny doesn't make me Mafia
If you think I had the intention of stopping discussion, you basically assume that I was protecting someone. If so, I'm automatically Mafia with one of them.
Thinking through a Mafia perspective, if I see two townies discussing, I won't interfere so they can tunnel each other.

So, you have to tell me who is my partner with them, or your argument simply doesn't hold water

Worst post in the thread award goes to GB for this pile of scummy shit.

Could you please explain how this post is alignment indicative?

It is both a horrible straw man and a pathetic attempt at defending oneself from accusations.

Your post on Palmar's post is also pretty bad. GJ.

Again, could you please explain how this post is alignment indicative?
All I see is an argument claiming that it is a low quality post, not an argument showing that it is a scum aligned post.

Same for your comment on my post.
You claim that it's bad - that's it? Am I scum for it? Is Palmar town for his post? Do you have any conclusions?


Damdred, could you give one town read that's not Palmar and a brief (like 1 liner) explanation for it?
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 05:44 GMT
#558
Yes, I asked a "seemingly easy" question to Damdred.

The guy who initially responded to GB's post.

From which Palmar started his GB campaign.

From which there is currently a wagon on someone we definitely shouldn't be lynching today.

Carry on.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 17:38 GMT
#673
Don't worry Koshi. I'm gonna churn out tons of data before deadline.

I don't mind if you park your vote on me in the meantime, just that you would at some point be able to read thread before deadline.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 17:41 GMT
#675
Alright, I'll do enough within the next several hours to at least sway you. Just be aware.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 18:06 GMT
#681
I was planning on doing a more fleshed-out post of my thoughts / motivations / opinions, but I realized trying to do that during a single lunch break wasn't really working out. So I'll do it piece by piece, and post them as I have the time.

And as an aside, I'm somewhat a stickler for precision.



I made a post about my thoughts on Palmar's interpretation on GB because I felt that it was, in fact, a weak observation. And when I say weak, I'm not trying to diminish the Palmar's contribution to the thread. I'm pointing out that I feel that the observation is not that alignment indicative. The comment GB made could have easily stemmed from perhaps unpleasant past game histories where an Obi vs HF discussion ruined his enjoyment of the game.

It's quite the stretch to suppose GB is actively shutting down discussion with that one comment.

In fact Palmar himself cedes this point 10 minutes later.
On April 07 2015 19:52 Palmar wrote:
Meh, maybe I am nitpicking, but it's the best I've got at the moment.

I made my post because I felt that other players may also have, what I think, misinterpreted how p8-9 played out (or maybe not even have read it for themselves but took Palmar's word for it). And I believe to some degree, most of the first half of D1 was like that.

Now through a back and forth between GB and Palmar, there arose, I believe, another layer of misunderstanding / misinterpretation. From GB's perspective, the only way that Palmar's accusation makes sense, would be that he is scum, shutting down discussion as to not draw attention to his teammate. This is reasonable - I'm not saying that this is true, but I can see how a town player could see things as such. Palmar however took that as a misinterpretation of his argument, and from then on called GB scum for that. I think this too is reasonable - I'm not saying this accurately reflects the situation, but I can see how a town player could see things as such.

I didn't bother giving a fleshed out read on Palmar because I wasn't heavily decided on his alignment one way or another. You can see from the general tone of my first post that I was leaning on the part of suspicion, but you can see from my lack of Palmar read that I didn't really think he must have been scum at that point. It's not effective for me to say "hey guys, I feel so-so on Palmar, since I could see it as town or mafia aligned" so I chose not to comment further.

And at this point I'm still only soft leaning town on him (town for his presence and activity, leaning because I just don't see GB's posts the way he does). I don't think GB is intentionally misinterpreting his accusations, and I think from GB's general behavior (sans his Palmar interaction) has been pretty good.

I'll post more soon. Feel free to discuss or reserve your judgement until I post more. This post is only part 1.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 18:37 GMT
#688
Yes I understand that I have been holding cards close to my chest.
I'll be playing them out one by one as I craft my posts.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 19:17 GMT
#691
Well seeing as how people's bedtimes are different from mine, I'll rush out this post and hopefully it will capture my general opinions, and I'll be here later to clarify for the people who will be on later.


My strongest scum read at this point is Vivax. It's not for any single incriminating post, but a result as using process of elimination of town reads.

On a general observation of Vivax, he is definitely present and posting in thread. However I find that many of his posts are general "I like this" or "let me repeat what this other guy said". I don't get the sense of him trying to convince someone of anything, but rather making comments as to appear active.

Secondly, it seems he is more interested in figuring out my real identity rather than figuring out my alignment. He has made several guesses at who I could be, but has yet to engage anyone in figuring out what my alignment is. Again, this ties into the first point, which is that he gives off a "backseat" playstyle, where he watches people do their thing, but doesn't really seem to be trying to figure things out, or if he has, convince others.

Last, watch how he came to land his vote on me.
On April 08 2015 19:51 Vivax wrote:
Count me in on the lynch DR club.
On April 08 2015 19:57 Vivax wrote:
Didn't understand shit of how the stuff Palmar said makes GB mafia, I'm moving to DR.


So he equates my lack of understanding (or to be clear, agreement) of Palmar's case on GB with scummy feigned ignorance of sorts.

30 minutes later?

On April 08 2015 20:34 Vivax wrote:
List time? List time.

Meh pile:

GB - Palmar had a point with him staying on the sidelines in the Obi vs HF matter. His argument that he has to be scum with one of them to be scum doesn't hold water. But Palmars last post on him with all the believing shit sounds like Palmar made something massive about something he could have said in a single line, and I don't see that being the scummiest post in the thread.

Palmar - Back into meh pile for the confusing post nobody understands. I have seen such a post on marv in a game a while ago. Palmar wasn't mafia but he also wasn't right. So you become meh.

Scummy:

Dread Return - Feels like he only commented on one thing in a tryhard fashion simply cause it was the thing most people seemed to pay attention to. Question to Damdred seemed disconnected but he justified it in a believable way. The issue remains that he only paid attention to that one matter which is a scum trait in my opinion. Also doesn't want to give a read on Palmar in the process of arguing that he misconstrued GB.

GB somehow moves into the null pile, even though Palmar's original case against GB should still be considered legitimate and applicable at this stage. I mean, if you are going to call someone scum because they don't agree with case, then you must believe that the case is legitimate. Alas, the case wasn't really resolved yet GB moves into the null pile, because Palmar's last post seems like a stretch. Disconnect - why are the two related? How does one weak point of a case discredit the rest of the case, especially if you so strongly believe it to make reads off of it?

Palmar moves to the meh pile - for what? One post that seems like a stretch? Again, if Vivax is putting so much weight on Palmar's case on GB, how is he dismissing it all for such a minor point? I mean, look at that flip-flop! "Palmar's last post is meh. Anecdotal evidence. Meh"

The last post on me is summed up as "he didn't post - must be scum" - and yet he mentions nothing of my lack of understanding Palmar's original case, which is the first thing that he mentioned when jumping on mention of my bandwagon. This seems like a huge oversight in consistency.


So all in all I feel like Vivax is doing enough to be seen as active in thread while not really participating, and making sketchy calls as he goes along with general thread sentiment.

##Vote: Vivax

p.s. I have more thoughts but I tried rushing the most important parts out - I'll have more later.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 19:21 GMT
#692
Oh wtf Koshi already made a similar case ...

Well then I feel even better about this.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 19:25 GMT
#693
Oh and as a quick aside for you Koshi,

That cryptic post of mine with 1) 2) 3) - it was to hint my intentions as to why I would be asking Damdred a question.

There's a GB wagon. I think he is town. Looks like a mislynch - let's see how it started. Oh Damdred. Time to get a better read on him.

I laid out the general steps without filling in the details to see who was reading my posts carefully / who just dismissed them.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 19:55 GMT
#702
yamato, what are your thoughts on Vivax's gameplay thus far?
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 21:37 GMT
#728
On April 09 2015 05:14 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2015 04:55 DreadReturn wrote:
yamato, what are your thoughts on Vivax's gameplay thus far?

Could be scum but my case on you is better.

So being the first to think and speak up against a potential GB mislynch makes me scum?

I'll cede the point of not posting frequently. I'll also cede the point that I chose not to comment on Palmar.

What I just don't understand is the notion that I'm scum because I thought GB was town before many other players did.

How?
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 22:15 GMT
#746
On April 09 2015 06:40 Koshi wrote:
In this limited timeframe I would like to encourage you to talk about possible scumreads and reasons why you are town over interrogating people you think are town. Or do you think yamato is mafia? Which is possible.

Also. I think only 2 people think gb is possible town.

Can you quickly givs your scumreads DR? Sleep time soon for me.

After Vivax, HolyFlare and Obi, by process of elimination.

I could argue why I think someone is more town than these three if you would like.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 22:19 GMT
#750
Is a full town read on everyone really what you would like ritoky?

Damdred, thoughts on Vivax?
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 22:20 GMT
#751
On April 09 2015 07:18 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2015 07:15 DreadReturn wrote:
On April 09 2015 06:40 Koshi wrote:
In this limited timeframe I would like to encourage you to talk about possible scumreads and reasons why you are town over interrogating people you think are town. Or do you think yamato is mafia? Which is possible.

Also. I think only 2 people think gb is possible town.

Can you quickly givs your scumreads DR? Sleep time soon for me.

After Vivax, HolyFlare and Obi, by process of elimination.

I could argue why I think someone is more town than these three if you would like.


Does it not bother you that your proposed team is trying to lynch into itself?

I don't see how anyone in this group is actually trying to get someone else in the group lynched. Like, actually lynched.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 22:21 GMT
#753
On April 09 2015 07:19 Palmar wrote:
Why are you so shit DR?

Let's assume that I'm a terribad player Palmar. Where do we go from there? Do we just lynch terribad players and then blame them when they flip town?

Talk to me about how crap by Vivax case is.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 22:24 GMT
#758
On April 09 2015 07:20 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2015 07:15 DreadReturn wrote:
On April 09 2015 06:40 Koshi wrote:
In this limited timeframe I would like to encourage you to talk about possible scumreads and reasons why you are town over interrogating people you think are town. Or do you think yamato is mafia? Which is possible.

Also. I think only 2 people think gb is possible town.

Can you quickly givs your scumreads DR? Sleep time soon for me.

After Vivax, HolyFlare and Obi, by process of elimination.

I could argue why I think someone is more town than these three if you would like.

I dont think you and vivax can be mafia together. Gut feeling.
I dont think Damdred and gb are mafia together.
Holyflare can be mafia with everybody.

Hmm. I dont really think obi is mafia. Could be. Something about the amount of letters in his posts. But he had a townie moment I quoted somewhere. Forgot what it was. You disagree with that? Or did he do more mafia things somewhere? Show me then.

Please answer quickly. Bedtime is really close. My water is getting cold.

Alright maybe this will help.
Vivax



HF





Obi


other people.

I don't feel strongly about Obi. He is forgettable. In my spreadsheet he has the least amount of comments so by virtue of being most forgettable, he gets relegated to third place.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
DreadReturn
Profile Joined March 2015
41 Posts
April 08 2015 22:26 GMT
#760
On April 09 2015 07:23 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2015 07:21 DreadReturn wrote:
On April 09 2015 07:19 Palmar wrote:
Why are you so shit DR?

Let's assume that I'm a terribad player Palmar. Where do we go from there? Do we just lynch terribad players and then blame them when they flip town?

Talk to me about how crap by Vivax case is.

Poor dreadie. Palmar is just testing you. Can you tell me you are really not OdinOfPergo? If you are I will have to defend you.

No I'm not who that is. No one is remotely close, and I'm not interested in disclosing who I am - hence the smurf.
Those who forget the horrors of the past are doomed to re-meet them.
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