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17015 Posts
So I've been doing some more theorycrafting on the toilet. I usually read back issues of Chess Life (that I used to get when I was still a member), but sometimes I just get bored. Here goes.
I was wondering why you don't see Queens more often in Zerg vs. anything. With a few notable exceptions (eri and tsunami are all I can name at the moment), I don't think any high level Zerg players get queens as part of their standard play, if at all. But Queens are amazingly effective units. For a meager cost and development through standard Zerg play, Queens can be one of the most efficient and game-deciding units available to the Zerg.
Queens, first of all, are cheap. They have a pretty low cost, though if you mass them they can be a little gas heavy. However, mass queens really isn't necessary, and just having a few (six or more) would make a gigantic difference in your efficiency. The Queen tech building is gotten fairly consistently in Zerg play, unless you want to stick with Lair tech for the whole game (in which case you most likely will lose). Queen spells don't take all that long to research and they aren't ridiculously expensive either. Even if you get your Queen's Nest early, in the mid game Queens can also be used effectively and their benefit greatly outweighs the cost.
Ensnare is probably the most useful Queen spell. It slows both movement speed and attack rate for units, often bringing fast-attacking units (Stimmed Marines) down to a more managable speed. It also reduces movement speed, and makes flanking a whole lot easier. I believe Ensnare would be very effective in match ups such as ZvP, as Zealots would be slowed, Dragoons would hardly attack at all, and Archons would be pretty much useless with their Reaver-like speed and horrendously slow attack rate under Ensnare. Ensnare can also be used in ZvZ battles, and I believe that a Queen is worth the cost of a few mutas if you get an Ensnare on a Mutalisk clump. It's obviously not wise to just rush Queens, but I think eventually they'd be pretty useful in ZvZ as well.
Parasite is another often overlooked skill that can be invaluable to the game. It's basically a 75 mana cost map hack, being able to see what any Parasited unit sees. You can Parasite high-value units such as Templar, Shuttles, Archons, Science Vessels, etc., and then you'll be able to track its movement, the army's movement, or force the opponent to waste a unit by suiciding, restoring (yeah, I know, I suppose it's a counter), or splitting his forces. Parasite can also be used on units such as patrolling scouters, as most players don't ever bother to check on their unit, just if any new Zerg expansions popped up or not. Additionally, if they expand there, you won't have to suicide an Overlord to scout it. Most players don't check their scouts anyway.
Parasite can also be used on their workers, and it's actually pretty effective as most players never bother to check on their workers. You can not only get a glimpse of their tech, but if they transfer the workers to any other expo you can get a look at that expo's location and defense as well. You can also Parasite critters, and most players don't check critters either. I know most versions of Luna come with Kakaru, and if you can get the vision of Kakaru, you basically have a mobile scout that most players won't even bother with.
The last Queen spell, Spawn Broodling, can also be used to turn the tides of a major battle. You could Broodling a Tank sieging one of your expos, so you can flank with your Zerglings/Lurkers/Ultralisks/Whatever more easily as you defend it. The Terran will also have to wait for another Tank before trying to break the Sunkens. Broodling is also effective on Templar (though it doesn't work on Archons, Dark Archons or Reavers), killing the Templar before it has a chance to do anything. If you previously Parasited smoething close to the Templar, you can just issue the command and the Templar will die, as Spawn Broodling has an obscenely long range (I believe it's the same as Yamato). Broodling also spawns two weakass units that can do lots of damage if they're splashed. If, for example, you decide to attack a Terran army head on and Broodling a Tank or Medic or whatever before hand, the Tanks immediately attack and the resulting splash can do a decent amount of damage before you even engage.
Any thoughts?
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17015 Posts
Crap, somehow this got posted in the middle of a sentence. I'm not even half done. Please wait for my edit.
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ensnare is not supposed to slow attack speed (and doesn't for the most part).
it does, however, effect a few units.
stimmed marines attack speed are slightly reduced. Theres a few more (but thats the only one i remember)
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So when exactly did Eri get to you? YOUR STRONGER THAN THIS!!!>_<
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On August 29 2006 14:06 OverTheUnder wrote:
So when exactly did Eri get to you? YOUR STRONGER THAN THIS!!!>_<
Thou canst resist thou pink shirt!!
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On August 29 2006 14:06 OverTheUnder wrote:
So when exactly did Eri get to you? YOUR STRONGER THAN THIS!!!>_<
Haha, indeed.
I did use queens but I found it too hard to effectivl manage them to a point of being useful with all my other units T_T
maybe when i'm beter :D
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ughh... eri already explained this perfectly. ZVT, most zergs play 3 hatch muta into lurker/ling/defiler or hydra lurk. Queens early on are not good for this type of play, but they're alright after you've secured a third or 4th gas, though nobody will probably use them since we just want to get 234908 gas and spend it all on ultra.
In the way eri plays, Low econ han-bang defiler, queens are very very good early on. One of the big weaknesses of low econ defiler type strats is that if you get contained and can't break it very fast, the terran has time to prepare for very quick defilers. Queens help solve this problem by giving your lurk/ling some leverage over his mnm, making it hard for him to simply stim and run back and make you burrow and re-burrow your lurkers 30 times before they get to his base. Once you've gotten map control with queen/lurker ling, you can march a defiler up to him and start doing damage.
In short, queens= good supplement to any sort of low economy zerg play. Bat.Jifeng has some games of him using queens in "standard" 3 hatch economy play. ZVP I'm not so sure about, and zvz there is no way in hell I'd buy a queen unless I was already teching hive off of 3 gas.
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ok so your post seems to talk about how awesome queens are but really doesnt talk about how hard they are to tactically apply during a game, or how getting them costs your unit numbers slightly(Sort of, its actually a decent hit in the phase of the game where they would be useful which is the late midgame when a P or T would usually attack the first time)...
Broodling requires too much mana to usually be timed easily, parasite is easily countered by the player putting the unit in a random spot on the map, killing it if its cheap or just running it out to scout and sacrifice. Ensnare is good but doesnt slow attack rate, hits your own units, is hard to aim at moving units. TBH im not sure that it counters stim either, I recall the Tsunami experiment but that seemed far from scientific. And on top of that Queens are also very weak, they die in a small amount of hits from just about anything and T can just irradiate them for a great gain.
Im not saying they are useless or without a place(They are consistantly useful vs Sair/Reaver for instance), but honestly its one of the rarest things in the game to see good queen usage and I dont think its just because all Zerg players suck or havent tried hard enough. Even players who do use them to some effect tend to have the element of surprise on their side with the unit.
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ensnare slows the effect of stim packs anyone who has eyes can see that
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Ensere removes the effect of stim.
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On August 29 2006 14:40 red.venom wrote:
ok so your post seems to talk about how awesome queens are but really doesnt talk about how hard they are to tactically apply during a game, or how getting them costs your unit numbers slightly(Sort of, its actually a decent hit in the phase of the game where they would be useful which is the late midgame when a P or T would usually attack the first time)...
Broodling requires too much mana to usually be timed easily, parasite is easily countered by the player putting the unit in a random spot on the map, killing it if its cheap or just running it out to scout and sacrifice. Ensnare is good but doesnt slow attack rate, hits your own units, is hard to aim at moving units. TBH im not sure that it counters stim either, I recall the Tsunami experiment but that seemed far from scientific. And on top of that Queens are also very weak, they die in a small amount of hits from just about anything and T can just irradiate them for a great gain.
Im not saying they are useless or without a place(They are consistantly useful vs Sair/Reaver for instance), but honestly its one of the rarest things in the game to see good queen usage and I dont think its just because all Zerg players suck or havent tried hard enough. Even players who do use them to some effect tend to have the element of surprise on their side with the unit.
3 years ago defilers were not seen very often, if ever.
now they are mainstream.
back then, people said 'no one uses defilers for a reason'. The masses seem to have changed their mind.
i use queens all the time. They take some practice, but they're very effective.
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There was that post a long while back that said that ensnare reduces stimmed marine attack rate to 120% of normal, or slightly faster than the usual attack rate rather than twice as fast as the usual attack rate. Most units don't fire much slower with ensnare (~15% was it?) or not any slower at all. The problem is the game flow. Also, ensnare really does less than you might think because enemy armies aren't necessarily going to be clumped nicely for you to hit. It takes several extra clicks to use Queens on top of your usual unit mix, so there's a speed issue even for the fastest player--maybe getting a better flank would've helped as much as getting in an ensnare on 2/5 of the enemy troops. But yes, there's no reason not to get ensnare once you've gotten hive tech working in zvp, so you can hit and run expos better (enemy troops would have worse response time in defending) and generally benefit slightly in straight-up combat. Yes, zvt ensnare works well too, in the situations already discussed.
Parasite gives scouting, but you're playing as zerg. Speed overlords with shift-clicking to spread through the map gives you great scouting anyway in situations where the enemy isn't trying to get air control. And it's not like you can control where the Kakaru moves, right? Granted, parasite is good to use in zvp vs. sair/reaver (an example where the enemy has air control), but players already get queens for ensnare against that.
Spawn broodling just costs 150 mana. It ain't no irradiate, although it has rare uses.
Infesting CCs is equivalent to using the taunt move in a fighter (gosu stuff), plus it actually has uses. But you didn't mention that.
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Norway28706 Posts
I always thought using queens was easy as hell
easiest spellcaster in the game imo
ensnare STICKS to whatever unit you throw it at, so unlike storm you don't need to anticipate where the units are moving. you just press e and then left mouseclick on the unit in the middle.
in addition the queen is flying thus you never have to take account for it getting blocked by other units (like defilers can sometimes get when you're trying to swarm. or templars with storm. )
maybe it's hard to keep track of where they are
but I never had that problem as I always hotkeyed queens to 0. 
and drowsy is pretty much correct. I played a zvt style of play where queens helped me tremendously. with other styles of play you also benefit greatly later on, but if you're doing a standard 3 hatch muta into lurker ling kind of thing, you actually have more problems spending 400 gas on getting fast queen than I did with my hiverush.
also broodling is almost useless (cept for stalemates pretty much but terran wins that due to irradiate anyway), and you don't need more than 2-3 queens.
and in zvp they're really good if you have lings vs goons and he tries running or you have hydra vs zealot archon and he tries running
if you're up against a zealot goon archon templar force and you don't have enough units to beat the force in the first place, ensnare doesn't help that much.
still enough to spend 300/300 on it though. for sure. but it'll very rarely be gamedeciding. (unlike zvt where I would often win because of ensnare. )
however, it's really, really great vs sair/reaver (and carriers) but once again it only really helps if you have enough units to beat his units. if he can fight it out then it's not a big deal. but if you don't have ensnare and you manage to flank his corsairs with mutas and he doesnt have enough sairs to beat them, normally he can just retreat to cannons and try again later and you gained nothing but with ensnare you can actually kill all his units then. vs sair reaver it can often be gamedeciding :O
and infest is fucking AWESOME. especially if people don't know you're the kind of guy who likes to infest. (eventually against players I knew I only really got to infest command centres I would otherwise have killed cause every time a cc started burning they immediately started repairing just cause it was me ) but when I played vs unknown nonkoreans I could like come in with a queen 2 minutes after a battle and take the cc cause they just didn't care about it having 600 hp
but I won a lot of games with infest as well
ok there goes first post in strat forum in a very long time
zoz
and zvz they're really great in theory but usually there isnt any point in the game where you can spend 400 gas on 2 queens queens nest and ensnare.
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Norway28706 Posts
and what the fuck red.venom
if your opponent chooses to irradiate your queen instead of your lurker or defiler, you're benefitting from it because it costs less than both the lurker and the defiler. what the fuck kind of "very high gain" is that.
and stimmed rines have their rate of fire decreased a very significant amount. and ensnared vessels are easily scourged. as are ensnared dropships.
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Drone, what do you think about queens zvz? Obviously, zvz is very sensitive and investing in queens too early is going to kill you pretty fast, but are they worth getting once both sides have gotten 3 gases or should you just save the gas for more devourers/guards/defilers?
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Norway28706 Posts
if you have a) defilers or b) enough units to kill his units if they are not next to his spore colonies despite spending 300/300 for 2 queens and ensnare, then queens are awesome. in particular because it essentially makes it impossible for him to hitnrun.
defilers because if you manage to both plague and ensnare his mutas at the same time, they're all dead. if you only plague them, not necessarily as he can just run away.
and like if both of you have 30 mutas and hive then getting 2 queens and ensnare will make a bigger difference than 3 more mutas in a muta vs muta battle. but it's pretty delicate :O
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
You know what?
There's no reason not to. It's the same reason DA's aren't used as often as they should, and why so many ZvP games aren't won early on simply because it never occurred to the Z to research burrow. The only reason people don't use them is because they're so ingrained that 12 hatch expo lurk/ling/fast defiler is the only way to play ZvT (for example) that they forget about queens. They're not used to playing with queens, they don't feel comfortable, so they don't use them.
I hate it.
But I do love playing all-in 4match muta/ling/queen in ZvT.
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On August 29 2006 15:26 Teroru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2006 14:40 red.venom wrote:
ok so your post seems to talk about how awesome queens are but really doesnt talk about how hard they are to tactically apply during a game, or how getting them costs your unit numbers slightly(Sort of, its actually a decent hit in the phase of the game where they would be useful which is the late midgame when a P or T would usually attack the first time)...
Broodling requires too much mana to usually be timed easily, parasite is easily countered by the player putting the unit in a random spot on the map, killing it if its cheap or just running it out to scout and sacrifice. Ensnare is good but doesnt slow attack rate, hits your own units, is hard to aim at moving units. TBH im not sure that it counters stim either, I recall the Tsunami experiment but that seemed far from scientific. And on top of that Queens are also very weak, they die in a small amount of hits from just about anything and T can just irradiate them for a great gain.
Im not saying they are useless or without a place(They are consistantly useful vs Sair/Reaver for instance), but honestly its one of the rarest things in the game to see good queen usage and I dont think its just because all Zerg players suck or havent tried hard enough. Even players who do use them to some effect tend to have the element of surprise on their side with the unit. 3 years ago defilers were not seen very often, if ever. now they are mainstream. back then, people said 'no one uses defilers for a reason'. The masses seem to have changed their mind. i use queens all the time. They take some practice, but they're very effective.
ok I can see where you are coming from. However back then I used defilers often and always thought they were extremely effective. Queens have always been a unit that has trouble fitting into the 1:1 game whereas defilers used to be considered an extremely late game unit and have now become so useful that you can see them pretty early and nonstop from then on. Maybe the abilities of the players just need to rise to another level to enjoy queen use on the regular.
On August 29 2006 15:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
and what the fuck red.venom
if your opponent chooses to irradiate your queen instead of your lurker or defiler, you're benefitting from it because it costs less than both the lurker and the defiler. what the fuck kind of "very high gain" is that.
and stimmed rines have their rate of fire decreased a very significant amount. and ensnared vessels are easily scourged. as are ensnared dropships.
Fair enough, its not a HIGH gain then. Its still 100/100 for free and takes away the initiative you may have from the threat of queens ensnaring shit. I wasnt really picturing a situation where you have defilers and queens though, but yes the defiler would be a higher priority target in that case.
Im glad queens counter stim but really the "Are queens the next big thing?" discussion has gone on for quite some time and I guess im just skeptical.
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Drone is very fiesty and adamant about his queens.
Do not fuck with him.
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Norway28706 Posts
you ALWAYS have lurkers if you have queens. im not gonna bring my queens near his units to ensnare if im not planning on attacking soon (in which case lurkers will be just as near as the queens) and if im not planning on ensnaring anytime soon, he'll have to go on an irradiate raid to get to my queens, in which case lurkers are just as close.
and lurkers cost more than queens.
sure irradiate kills queens but you should never object to it happening because every time he irradiates a queen, he spends 1 irradiate killing 100/100 instead of 125/125 or 50/150.
unless you're going hydras in which case he could spend the mana on them instead, but then again, ensnare and hydras don't mix all that nicely against terran. it's a supplement for lurk ling defilers and ultras.
and the reason why zergs have not all started building queens is that it's still very very possible to win without them. before zergs started building defilers, the game had evolved to a point where zergs couldn't really beat the common terran strategies at that point without them. once zergs stop being able to win (if that ever happens), they'll have to revamp their game and try new things, which would lead them to discovering how helpful the queen is. I personally think, hell I'm certain, that pro zergs would experience a significant increase in win% vs terran if they tried focusing on adding queens to their game. =]
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EPT
