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[D] Double Gas Steal PvP
Yes that's right, double gas steal at around 12 supply after their warpgate. It stops all gas production and the only option is to make zealots. Which you can counter with Mama core and later on Oracle.
So you think it's not possible at a pro level to do this? Usually toss these days don't scout at after the first pylon anymore so it's pretty easy to surprise them with this. If the map has two gases lying next to each other you would only send one probe, but in the case of two being separated you would have to bring two to create at the same time.
Build order
10 - pylon and chrono
~12 Steal both of their gases
14 Warpgate - They make two warp gates (or they lose)
15 gas -
Then make a core ASAP and if he kills your gasses then go MsC and rush it to their base. If he rushes you make a mother ship core and rush it to their zealots and use time warp at your ramp with your zealots. Try to rush to an oracle as well. They kill zealots quite fast.
I have done this a variety of times and they usually are like WTF when it happens.
GL HF
What do you guys think?
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I have encountered that twice thus far. Made proxy 2/3 gate with my scouting probe in both cases and won both games.
When going for that build you need to make sure not to die against mass zealot. MsC is fun and stuff but won't stop those 5 zealots in your mineral line to annihilate your probes.
Chances are that he answer with FFE in which case your oracles shouldn't do too much and you end up being behind in the economy. Your game plan shouldn't end with "I make oracles and win".
Against inexperienced players or in lower leagues it should give you some easy wins though. Most of those players are just so confused that they make random stuff that doesn't make any sense.
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1gateFE, cannons if necessary. You throw down 200 minerals in the early game to deny him all of his gas? He cuts a probe and a gateway to get another nexus. He's not forced to make two warp gates if scouts.
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how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand?
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On February 28 2013 12:24 t3tsubo wrote:
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand?
All builds have their flaws. This is just a weird cheese build I thought of when losing to dt's. Forge Fast Expands don't survive void rays and zealots. after 4 void rays cannons die pretty fast.
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On February 28 2013 11:48 Jukez wrote:
[D] Double Gas Steal PvP
Yes that's right, double gas steal at around 12 supply after their warpgate. It stops all gas production and the only option is to make zealots. Which you can counter with Mama core and later on Oracle.
So you think it's not possible at a pro level to do this? Usually toss these days don't scout at after the first pylon anymore so it's pretty easy to surprise them with this. If the map has two gases lying next to each other you would only send one probe, but in the case of two being separated you would have to bring two to create at the same time.
Build order
10 - pylon and chrono
~12 Steal both of their gases
14 Warpgate - They make two warp gates (or they lose)
15 gas -
Then make a core ASAP and if he kills your gasses then go MsC and rush it to their base. If he rushes you make a mother ship core and rush it to their zealots and use time warp at your ramp with your zealots. Try to rush to an oracle as well. They kill zealots quite fast.
I have done this a variety of times and they usually are like WTF when it happens.
GL HF
What do you guys think?
Double gas steal is nothing new. WBC used it often at MLG Anaheim in 2011, during his run where he defeated Oz in PvP 2-1, and took a game off Socke too. In fact, in his final game at MLG Anaheim, he stole both of Socke's gasses, but then Socke stole both of his (this was on Metalopolis where the gasses are next to each other) and threw out a smiley face! He did win some games with it earlier, stealing gasses and Cannon Rushing.
I tried in a local tournament years ago once too, but ColRyan sniffed it out immediately, taking one of his geysers early. I even brought two Probes and had them timed to steal his gasses at the same time.
Basically when a Probe shows up early in your base it in PvP it often means some kind of cheese and when it runs directly toward your geysers, you select a Probe, and as soon as he takes the first, you take the other one. No problem. If you see two Probes show up, it is definitely a gas steal or Cannon rush. If your opponent gets both gasses and knows how to play, you will lose. But if you know the warning signs, it'll never catch you off guard, and in Masters, you won't be able to get both because everyone has seen it. People are especially wary on maps where the gasses are close to each other.
That said, I like to double gas steal people who 2 Gate me when I get ahead, or people who cannon rush me. It guarantees they can't transition. It is also really effective in 2vs2, where the quality of your opponents (and allies sadly) is often very questionable.
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Had this done to me twice in a row one day. As stated above, a good reaction to it would be to FFE and possibly even try to sneak in a cannon rush in retaliation.
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some guy did this to me in EU Gold yesterday ; i just expanded and won the game handily.
of course there could be flaws in his game , as there are in mine (gold league)
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On February 28 2013 12:39 Jukez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 12:24 t3tsubo wrote:
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand? All builds have their flaws. This is just a weird cheese build I thought of when losing to dt's. Forge Fast Expands don't survive void rays and zealots. after 4 void rays cannons die pretty fast.
If you have 4 Voidrays after delayed warpgate opening, your opponent with Nexus First into Forge will have plenty of time to produce units.
The idea is nice and it can work, but only when the opponent is inexperienced with this or is much worse than you.
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I've been doing it on Cloud Kingdom almost every PvP there (can't do it on any other map because you need 2 close gasses), it is really REALLY strong, I even beaten a GM player with it. The normal response I got was either cheese (which you should block if you don't lose your probe) or the probes attacking the gas in order to get a stalker fast enough for the msc. If there is no response and the enemy tries to wait for the Zealot to kill the gas then you will probably win the game, and even if he uses a cannon or his probes to break the gas then you will have a very decent econ advantage, so imo this build is completely imbalanced and maps should try to not have 2 gasses near each other in the main.
EDIT: I think the build of the OP to not be optimal, you can actually go 13 gas steal if you time it right and 13 gateway is important to defend from cheese and zealot pressure. Anyways an Oracle is silly since its so late, you simply want to rush for msc and try to kill as many workers as possible with it while blocking the ramp if the opponent went something like 2gate zealots, unless they have fast cannons or attack with the probes the msc will come way before the stalker is out and you will be able to win the game.
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On February 28 2013 12:39 Jukez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 12:24 t3tsubo wrote:
how does this fare if they transition to a forge fast expand? All builds have their flaws. This is just a weird cheese build I thought of when losing to dt's. Forge Fast Expands don't survive void rays and zealots. after 4 void rays cannons die pretty fast.
u delay ur entire build by spending 150 minerals on the steal that early on and even more so if u send out 2 probes to do the dirty work. if ur opponent just expands and gets some cannons as defense he will start to outproduce u quite quickly.
The same topic came up in WoL at some point and as soon as u meet ppl who know this cheese u will almost always lose.
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aside from countering it with a build, anyone above diamond should not get 2 gasses stolen. he would need to send 2 probes at 8,9 to even have a chance of stealing both gasses.
when i have not taken a geyser yet and someone steals one of your gassea, you take the second one as fast as you can, or\and rightclick a probe to your gas, blocking his ability to build.
losing 150 minerals and mining time of early scout also turns this into an allin
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I did something similar to this back in WOL (masters league) and with using was able to beat GM's with a 75% win ratio. The losses came from missed force fields. PvP was by far my best matchup. I considered writing a guide on it, but decided against it and only used it myself (I'm a selfish bastard). Seeing that WOL is now ending, I'll go ahead and share it with you guys. I've also used it in HOTS, but I haven't yet figured out a way to use it as effectively, and honestly it probably wont ever be as effective with the introduction of MSC.
9 pylon (scout him quickly or this won't work)
11 gate (their is a one second delay, but the idea is to have your gate and core up and running b4 his) CHRONO nexus x2
14 assimilator
(now steal his gas; only take one; if you attempt to take two, your core will be late, and your sentries will not get out in time if he chooses to follow up with a 3-4 gate, which is the most common follow up)
16 assimilator
16 pylon
16 core (remaining chrono on core)
now make 2 sentries and chrono warp gates. If he attacks his assimilator, you know that you aren't in danger of being 3-4 gated immediately. If he skips taking back his gas, you may have to chrono your 2nd sentry. If his build is standard, he will not make it into your base before your 2nd sentry is about to pop, and by the time your 3rd FF runs out, your Warp gates will be finished; build a pylon fairly close to your ramp so that when you warp you can immediately FF; after 5-6 sentries you can FF your ramp for eternity). Everything is timed so perfectly. The trick now is to hit ALL of your forcefields and warp in sentries if he continues to pressure. If you are successful, you will out gas and out tech him, even with all of your sentry production. I prefer following up with a 1 base 2 collossi push (the timing of this push hits right before his late tech or money from his expansion kicks in). If done correctly, you will always be ahead in tech and gas. This strategy always provides you a gas advantage, which is I feel the most important resource in this matchup. Like I said, when I performed this strategy correctly, I never lost. Sometimes I would forgo collossi and go air. Lifting off all his probes while he tried to break his way up my ramp. Ohh the rage that would ensue. I'm gonna miss this build in HOTs, but I do occasionally use a variant of it, which I still haven't quite figured out yet, but I'll have it timed perfectly soon enough.
I should also state, you should immediately throw down your robotics facility if he chose to attack your assimilator in his base followed by robotics bay after your 2nd sentry is out (stop making sentries after 2 only warping them in if he tries to force his way up your ramp). If he chose not to attack your assimilator in his base, add 2 more gates before the robo) Quickly pump out 2 collossi and follow up with 3-4 additional gates. Now go kill him before his economy or tech kicks in.
One other point, if he immediately chose to expand and you missed it, don't wait for 2 collossi to come out; hit him with 1 collossi and gateway units. I always make 1 observer before my collossi to ensure this didn't happen. Sometimes your not able to get in a good scout, so the obs is essential. Obviously, you can tell how long his expo has been there according to his probe count.
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On March 01 2013 00:46 Obamanation666 wrote:
I did something similar to this back in WOL (masters league) and with using was able to beat GM's with a 75% win ratio. The losses came from missed force fields. PvP was by far my best matchup. I considered writing a guide on it, but decided against it and only used it myself (I'm a selfish bastard). Seeing that WOL is now ending, I'll go ahead and share it with you guys. I've also used it in HOTS, but I haven't yet figured out a way to use it as effectively, and honestly it probably wont ever be as effective with the introduction of MSC.
9 pylon (scout him quickly or this won't work)
11 gate (their is a one second delay, but the idea is to have your gate and core up and running b4 his) CHRONO nexus x2
14 assimilator
(now steal his gas; only take one; if you attempt to take two, your core will be late, and your sentries will not get out in time if he chooses to follow up with a 3-4 gate, which is the most common follow up)
16 assimilator
16 pylon
16 core (remaining chrono on core)
now make 2 sentries and chrono warp gates. If he attacks his assimilator, you know that you aren't in danger of being 3-4 gated immediately. If he skips taking back his gas, you may have to chrono your 2nd sentry. If his build is standard, he will not make it into your base before your 2nd sentry is about to pop, and by the time your 3rd FF runs out, your Warp gates will be finished; build a pylon fairly close to your ramp so that when you warp you can immediately FF; after 5-6 sentries you can FF your ramp for eternity). Everything is timed so perfectly. The trick now is to hit ALL of your forcefields and warp in sentries if he continues to pressure. If you are successful, you will out gas and out tech him, even with all of your sentry production. I prefer following up with a 1 base 2 collossi push (the timing of this push hits right before his late tech or money from his expansion kicks in). If done correctly, you will always be ahead in tech and gas. This strategy always provides you a gas advantage, which is I feel the most important resource in this matchup. Like I said, when I performed this strategy correctly, I never lost. Sometimes I would forgo collossi and go air. Lifting off all his probes while he tried to break his way up my ramp. Ohh the rage that would ensue. I'm gonna miss this build in HOTs, but I do occasionally use a variant of it, which I still haven't quite figured out yet, but I'll have it timed perfectly soon enough.
I should also state, you should immediately throw down your robotics facility if he chose to attack your assimilator in his base followed by robotics bay after your 2nd sentry is out (stop making sentries after 2 only warping them in if he tries to force his way up your ramp). If he chose not to attack your assimilator in his base, add 2 more gates before the robo) Quickly pump out 2 collossi and follow up with 3-4 additional gates. Now go kill him before his economy or tech kicks in.
One other point, if he immediately chose to expand and you missed it, don't wait for 2 collossi to come out; hit him with 1 collossi and gateway units. I always make 1 observer before my collossi to ensure this didn't happen. Sometimes your not able to get in a good scout, so the obs is essential. Obviously, you can tell how long his expo has been there according to his probe count.
what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate.
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On February 28 2013 21:28 weikor wrote:
aside from countering it with a build, anyone above diamond should not get 2 gasses stolen. he would need to send 2 probes at 8,9 to even have a chance of stealing both gasses.
The thing is that there is absolutely no reason to 9 scout in PvP. There is nothing to see yet that you can't see with a later scout so you're just wasting resources. And you can scout just as effectively later since you really need Stalkers to deny scout Probes, and it takes awhile for the first Stalker to get out.
Thus, as I said before, if you see a Probe show up in your base with the timing of 9 pylon scout or earlier, then prepare for a Cannon rush or have a Probe ready to take one of your gas (especially if your geysers are close to each other) depending on where that Probe is heading. The chances of your opponent cheesing you with a 9 scout or earlier in PvP are very high, and cutting Probes briefly to take an early gas or block a gas with Probe won't set you behind nearly as much as him scouting so early will.
I've never lost to a double gas steal, but that is probably because I know the warning signs and how to block it.
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what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate.
Well.... i did kinda go off on a tanget. I've just been wanting to share that for a long time, but it does have some relation to the post. It goes into depth to explain the benefit's of gas stealing, so there is some relation.
11 gating DOES NOT hurt your economy in any way that is going to make or break anything, it just ensures that he can't get in your base with a 3-4 gate; although, you do have to begin chronoing on 12 instead of 10, so you could call that giving up maybe 3 seconds of mining time of one probe. Try it if you don't believe me. I understand that if I wasn't taking his gas I WOULD be taking a hard hit to my economy, but I'm NOT losing anything with the 9 scout. I'm trading my minerals for his gas and his future plans; I can assure you, the gas is far more important than the minerals. This forces him into a few options that I can easily read by watching his decisions. He either has to accept that he is now behind in the tech game or take 1 of 2 options that I've already set myself up to win. My opponent gives away his gameplan without realizing it.
By him choosing to attack the assimilator or forgo attacking the assimilator, he gives me the information I need on what to do next to win. 95% of the time I can tell you exactly what he is going to do just by, when he attacks the assimilator, what he attacks it with, and it gives me vision into his base; I can see his buildings if he's made his pylon close to the assimilator, and the most important thing; I can see where he is spending his Chrono and see his probe count.
High Chrono on the nexus and high probe count? Now I know there is a high chance he is going to expand, so I forgo the second collossi and make sure I hit early warp ins.
High Chrono on the core and he forgos attacking the assimilator. I'm gearing up for a lot of ff's on my ramp.
I could go on and on, but I think that's probably enough.
The information you gain is priceless. It changes his gameplans into your gameplan. It denies him the most important resource in this matchup, gas. You cannot convince me that taking his gas is a bad thing. If I wasn't taking his gas, then we would be on equal footing. Why give him a fair fight? Set him behind by taking away his gas.
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On March 01 2013 03:58 Obamanation666 wrote:Show nested quote +what i get from ur post:
1. u were pretty good at WoL
2 .ur build has nothing to do with the OP
apart from that: that's no new or secret build, it is gas steal followed by a 1 base all in. taking into consideration that u r 9 scouting, 11 gating and gas stealing u r taking pretty hard hits to ur economy. So u could be very well off just doing the same all in without gas stealing and u'd probably still have the same win rate. Well.... i did kinda go off on a tanget. I've just been wanting to share that for a long time, but it does have some relation to the post. It goes into depth to explain the benefit's of gas stealing, so there is some relation. 11 gating DOES NOT hurt your economy in any way that is going to make or break anything, it just ensures that he can't get in your base with a 3-4 gate; although, you do have to begin chronoing on 12 instead of 10, so you could call that giving up maybe 3 seconds of mining time of one probe. Try it if you don't believe me. I understand that if I wasn't taking his gas I WOULD be taking a hard hit to my economy, but I'm NOT losing anything with the 9 scout. I'm trading my minerals for his gas and his future plans; I can assure you, the gas is far more important than the minerals. This forces him into a few options that I can easily read by watching his decisions. He either has to accept that he is now behind in the tech game or take 1 of 2 options that I've already set myself up to win. My opponent gives away his gameplan without realizing it. By him choosing to attack the assimilator or forgo attacking the assimilator, he gives me the information I need on what to do next to win. 95% of the time I can tell you exactly what he is going to do just by, when he attacks the assimilator, what he attacks it with, and it gives me vision into his base; I can see his buildings if he's made his pylon close to the assimilator, and the most important thing; I can see where he is spending his Chrono and see his probe count. High Chrono on the nexus and high probe count? Now I know there is a high chance he is going to expand, so I forgo the second collossi and make sure I hit early warp ins. High Chrono on the core and he forgos attacking the assimilator. I'm gearing up for a lot of ff's on my ramp. I could go on and on, but I think that's probably enough. The information you gain is priceless. It changes his gameplans into your gameplan. It denies him the most important resource in this matchup, gas. You cannot convince me that taking his gas is a bad thing. If I wasn't taking his gas, then we would be on equal footing. Why give him a fair fight? Set him behind by taking away his gas.
It's so funny to see that the format of the ladder (forever bo1) influence the play of everyone so deeply. If you were to ever choose to participate tournaments, you would rapidly be known to like to gas steal and everyone would prevent it (by hold positioning a probe next to the gas).
I'm not raging or calling you noob or anything but i've always thought it funny to see that players like you develop that very specific kind of play that will forever be impossible for pros to use, because it relies so deeply on remaining hidden. And well, you're probably better than most protosses at playing what follow that gas steal because you've played those scenarios more than probably any other protoss.
Personaly, i'll never go on with such gimicks because once you're known to do things like that, they're easily countered (that is, if your opponent know u'll do it before game start), and then you're likely to be completely lost because you dont have that much practice of a standard game. So I dont like the idea of my play relying on something that frail and fragile and prefer to think of myself as an overall solid player, macro-passive kind of player (i ended up having GM level macro with top master ladder rank because i always lacked proper scouting timings and any willingness to be agressive, but that's another story).
May I ask you if you still win at least 50% of your pvp if you meet the same dude twice in a row and he prevents gas steal?
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@ Obamanation666
well, yes u r stealing a gas and the OP is about stealing both gases even considering pulling 2 workers doing so, the implications for the rest of the game are totally different but nvm.
I see ur point in narrowing down the options ur opponent has, however, high lvl play shows, that 1 base colossus can be held by a 1 gate fe ( the 1 colossus no range with 4 gates variant making it a lot harder to hold, yet still manageable)
Imho, if those builds collide it comes down almost purely to execution to decide who will be victorious.
If ur opponent does not attack ur stolen geyser and instead expands while poking with his units u will not have any scouting info apart from him not doing a tech build (ie, if he doesn t plant his cc next to ur geyser...but why should he). instead u could face: a 3/4 gate or an expansion play, so if u don't get a lucky probe scout in u will be forced to get those defensive sentries marginalising ur gas advantage .
All in all, your build gives u certain information yet I just can't see how the build in itself gives u a significant advantage over an skilled opponent who knows his options. I guess ur all-in would probably have won u the game anyways due to better execution.
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On March 01 2013 04:50 tar wrote:
@ Obamanation666
well, yes u r stealing a gas and the OP is about stealing both gases even considering pulling 2 workers doing so, the implications for the rest of the game are totally different but nvm.
I see ur point in narrowing down the options ur opponent has, however, high lvl play shows, that 1 base colossus can be held by a 1 gate fe ( the 1 colossus no range with 4 gates variant making it a lot harder to hold, yet still manageable)
Imho, if those builds collide it comes down almost purely to execution to decide who will be victorious.
If ur opponent does not attack ur stolen geyser and instead expands while poking with his units u will not have any scouting info apart from him not doing a tech build (ie, if he doesn t plant his cc next to ur geyser...but why should he). instead u could face: a 3/4 gate or an expansion play, so if u don't get a lucky probe scout in u will be forced to get those defensive sentries marginalising ur gas advantage .
All in all, your build gives u certain information yet I just can't see how the build in itself gives u a significant advantage over an skilled opponent who knows his options. I guess ur all-in would probably have won u the game anyways due to better execution.
He explained that he has more gas than his opponent no matter what his opponent does. You cant make sure of that without gas steal, and i guess it's important since you wont counter collossus with zealots and canons are you? You'll need to match his gas to kill his collossus and you cant do that since he gas stole you. That's the point of the build.
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EPT
