EPTHere is the post on the beta forums and reddit respectively
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6864316905?page=1#0
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11fafh/terran_identity_damage_and_supply/
Arcturus Mengsk
Out of the many we shall forge an indivisible whole, capitulating only to a single throne. And from that throne... I shall watch over you.
IDENTITY
+ Show Spoiler +
Terrans have it rough. They are the unwanted and forgotten trash of Earth. Criminals, dissidents, undesirables. Here, among the ruins of empires and corpses of long-dead gods, Terrans grow crops, raise families, and feud with neighbors. There is no purity of form or essence here, only the wealth of blood and tears. Whether you are a General of the Dominion, or a Militia Commander, one thing is clear: this Sector is a dark and terrible place, and we are all in it together. Out of the many haphazard parts, comes an engine, a machine of war, made of bent plowshares, refitted motorbikes, and fueled by napalm and old grudges. Humans do not spawn in droves like the Zerg, and they cannot simply wade into battle like the Protoss. When the odds are stacked against the Terran, they cheat. Through sheer tenacity, ingenuity, and hard work, the Terrans have survived the The Great War, The Brood War, and the Second Great War. The message is clear: “We are here to stay, and if you got something to say, you can say it fifty yards out in a minefield.”
- Identity and Mechanics
+ Show Spoiler +Terrans are a race are a great machine made of interchangeable and focused parts. Each part is designed for a given set of tasks and in a pinch, can be used in ways not necessarily intended. Siege Tanks, Vikings were born out of necessity, and Vultures and Hellions units still bear resemblance to the civilian vehicles they were retrofitted from.
There are three core themes to a Terran combat unit:- It has a near unprecedented ability to kill from a distance.
- It is intended to work in conjunction with a greater whole and fulfill a distinct role.
- It is reflects an effort to utilize and optimize every scrap. Waste is the deadliest of sins.
- Mechanics and Tech
+ Show Spoiler +Terran is special because it is comprised of three modular armies -- infantry, ground vehicles, and air vehicles -- that are brought to the field as the fight escalates. Each offering their own style. The rugged beauty of their modular design is that they give the terran commander the power to mix and match, bringing to bear different synergies for each strategy. Of the three races, Terran often has the most nuanced compositions. This is the heartbeat of Terran, the fundamental tension of choosing a pure composition of one modular army (stay with me Mr. Browder) for upgrade efficiency, or wielding their combined synergy.- Terran Infantry
+ Show Spoiler +Terran Infantry or Bio uses range and speed to outmaneuver and outgun their enemies. Many of these soldiers are expected to die in the process. That is fine: training these soldiers is cheap, and there are a multitude of gulags and prisons to draw upon. When playing Bio, one doesn't waste lives so much as spend them. Lives are cheap, equipment is expensive. Here, Blizzard's implementation is exceptional. Terran units feel cheap and useful for what they cost you. You can crank out an army of marines out of reactors, send Reapers to punish an unwary opponent, or lead Ultralisks on a merry chase with Marauders. Fighting against a good Terran infantry commander is like boxing with a hornet's nest: there is no running, there is no “fighting,” there is only the death of a hundred stings.- How has Bio Changed?
+ Show Spoiler [Brood War] +Terran Infantry was a problematic composition in BW due to their low starting values and their poor scaling.Unit Name Cost Supply HP/Shields Damage Range Tier
BW Marine 50 1 40 6 4/5 1
BW Firebat 50/25 1 50 4 (+4 vs Medium, +12 vs Small) 2 1.5
BW Medic 50/25 1 60 - - 1.5
BW Ghost 25/75 1 45 2 (+3 vs Medium, +8 vs Small) 7 3
BW Zergling 25 0.5 35 5 0 1
BW Hydra 75/25 1 80 5 (+3 vs Medium, +5 vs Large) 4/5 1.5
BW Zealot 100 2 100/60 16 0 1
BW Dragoon 125/50 2 100/80 10 (+5 vs Medium, +10 vs Large) 5/7 1.5
The problem is pretty clear on paper. Terran units are strong with good positioning early on; however, the lack of durability made the composition terrible against any concentrated form of AOE damage such as Storms and Reavers. Additionally, speed Zealots and Dragoons could just straight up out last and out damage terran bio on a production basis. It doesn't help that the Dragoon out-ranged everything but the Ghost (a terrible tier 3 unit.) Pure Bio compositions existed on a timeline, for an infantry force to have scaled well into the late game, it required the support of Mechanized units on the ground or in the air.
+ Show Spoiler [Starcraft 2] +Starcraft 2 introduced several aspects to help make Bio a stronger presence in the mid and late game without making them too dominant early game. The results are mostly positive, and still preserve the gameplay and overall feel of Terran infantry.Unit Name Cost Supply HP/Shields Damage Range Tier
WOL Marine 50 1 45+10 6 5 1
WOL Marauder 100/25 2 125 10 (+10 vs Armored) 6 1.5
WOL Reaper 50/50 1 50 4 (+4 vs Light) x2 4.5 1.5
WOL Ghost 200/100 2 100 10 (+10 vs Light) 6 1.5
WOL Zergling 25 0.5 35 5 0 1
WOL Roach 75/25 2 145 16 4 1.5
WOL Zealot 100 2 100/50 8 x2 0 1
WOL Stalker 125/50 2 80/80 10 (+4 vs Armored) 6 1.5
WOL Sentry 50/100 2 40/40 6 5 1.5
The main changes are the addition of a more robust anti-armored unit (the Marauder), the removal of an AoE anti light unit (the Firebad) in favor of a ranged single target anti-light unit (the Reaper), and a more focused design of the Ghost, bringing it down to tier 1.5 (effective at Tier 2) and making it an anti-caster. - Marauder
+ Show Spoiler +The Marauder presents elegant design solution to the Starcraft 1 bio problem of melting to AOE, and their inability to take down heavy targets. These issues curtailed the entire composition of bio in TvP, but the Marauder helps carry bio viable into the late game. It can survive the initial burst of AOE, and does high damage to armored targets as well as buildings, opening up different kinds of harassment options. It also provides a means of Terran to stay away from their enemies (though I will argue that there are better ways to implement this but the effect is there.) The marauder has access stim and is a very “micro-able”, meaning good counter play is possible. Finally, it still is a small-ish unit and repeated exposure to aoe will still destroy them, so it’s not the answer to all of bio’s woes. This is good design; weaknesses give definition to a style are as interesting as strengths,. Despite the grief visited upon it, it is a well designed answer to the SC1 problem ...with the unfortunate addition of the unfun, antimicro concussive shell. - Ghost
+ Show Spoiler +A Tier 1.5 Ghost provides Bio with a caster that answers SOME of the threats to bio in the form of Snipe and EMP -- Storms don’t drop when the Templar is having an EMP seizure. The new Ghost is the elite terran infantry. Unlike the BroodWar Ghosth, the slightly increased supply cost of the SC2 ghost has allowed it to go toe to toe with its enemies, provided it gets the drop on them. It’s all about fighting dirty, and that is quintessential Terran.
- How has Bio Changed?
- Mechanized Units
+ Show Spoiler +Mechanized units, or Factory units, achieve the same goal of avoiding direct conflict through different means. Instead of sparing and fighting dirty, Mech armies assert dominance over territory. The opponent may have a hundred Zerglings and Hydralisks, but numbers don't matter when there is half a mile of mines and Tank fire waiting for the charge. Additionally, the machine of Factory units is a slower and more deliberate one. Timing attacks are executed on locations rather than enemies. It is about taking and the more critical ground. Old mech made “timings” by seiging the forth, then the third, and on until the they could put heat on the main base. These slow pushes provided tons of counterplay through mobility, and the chance to deploy units to break weak points in the line. This gameplay is the heartbeat of Mech, and the backbone of so many top-tier BW games.- Supply and Space Control in Mech Play
+ Show Spoiler +Since its release, Wings of Liberty has struggled with mech play, and there is one core reason: Supply.
Let's look at the numbers.Unit Name Cost Supply HP/Shields Damage Range Tier
BW Tank¹ 150/100 2 150 35² (+14 vs Medium, +35 vs L) 12 2.5
BW Vulture 75 2 80 5 (+5 vs Medium, +15 vs S) 5 2
BW Goliath [G] 100/50 2 125 12 5 2.5
BW Goliath [A] 100/50 2 125 5 (+3 vs Medium, +5 vs L) x2 5+3 2.5
BW Spider Mine - - 20 125² 1 2.5
WOL Tank¹ 150/125 3 160 35² (+15 vs Armored) 13 2.5
WOL Hellion 100 2 90 8² (+6/11 vs Light) 5 2
WOL Thor [G] 300/200 6 400 30 x2 7 2.5
WOL Thor [A] 300/200 6 400 6² (+6 vs Light) x4 10 2.5
¹ - Tanks in siege mode.
² - Area of Effect damage.
The Wings of Liberty Tank does less damage (though smart fire makes its damage more consistent) and costs 50% more supply than its BW counterpart. This means that in BW 40 supply worth of tanks gave you twenty Tanks versus the 13 you can have in Wings of Liberty. The lack of a supply cheap means of map control like the Spider Mine also contributes to this problem. This means that Terran can hold ground less effectively with its core territory unit while Protoss and Zerg get more mobile armies through charge, Warp In, Blink, and Creep Speed. Meaning that when a tank line is broken, there are fewer tanks back home and no mines to slow down the enemy advance (which is faster in SC2). Perhaps the most problematic change is the Thor. The Thor's large numbers make it an intimidating unit to fight against, but all 6 supply has to be devoted to wherever the Thor is, meaning you get about 3 Goliaths worth of AA at a location, but you can't split it up. This high numbers/supply cost makes Thors a more all-in friendly unit at the cost of making it something you would make for a position-based macro based army. - The Old Warhound and why it was almost a perfect redesign of the Thor
+ Show Spoiler +Before the redesign of the Warhound and the inclusion of Haywire Missiles, the Warhound was introduced as a smaller, more mobile, Thor. To be clear, this is not the warhound played in the Beta. This older warhound was fantastic: its supply was somewhere between 2 and 4 rather than a 6 supply monstrosity; it targeted air; and had enough durability, speed, and damage to support Tanks and Hellbats on the ground. You could spread AA supply through your whole army, making mech a truly modular option, rather than a supplement to the other composition. When I saw the old warhound, I strongly considered switching to Terran to prepare for Heart of the Swarm. I would love to see the Warhound return as a reliable form of AA, restoring the modular nature of mech. Much superior to the mechanized marauder it was released as.
The new mine may provide enough AA to allow mech to be its own modular Sub-army, however. We will have to see. - The Feel of the Thor
+ Show Spoiler +For the role it currently occupies, the Thor doesn't feel like a Terran unit. The Thor is an experimental weapon that costs tons of resources to bring to the battlefield. It is a ground battlecruiser, it wants to wreck things. Why should it be constrained to babysit tanks from mutalisks? Assigning it a babysitting AA role is wasteful. The fix will be discussed later.
- Supply and Space Control in Mech Play
- Starport Units
+ Show Spoiler [Brood War] +Brood War Starport units had more complex and nuanced roles than the more specific roles of the Terran ground troops. They often combine firepower, range, increased durability, and mobility in exchange for higher costs. Air Terran shows up when the chips are down and the only recourse is to call in the air support. Starport units should feel like a cavalry that blares Vagner's “Flight of the Valkyries” (No pun intended). The Starcarft 2 Starport continues this proud tradition: the Wraith and Banshee excel at lightning attacks; Vikings are intended to hammer air targets from a long range, and descend upon supply lines when the opportunity presents itself; the Science Vessel and the Raven both have kits that can support multiple compositions by damaging mineral lines or discouraging direct engagements. Finally, the Battlecruiser sits atop the tech tree like some angry armored eagle, the contribution of the Terran's elite, the centerpiece of the great war machine, the banner of humanity.
+ Show Spoiler [Wings of Liberty] +I think out of all of the tech paths in SC2, WoL Starport units are both the most faithful and imaginative additions in terms of design and gameplay, even if the numbers aren't quite right. The Viking feels very terran. I know many people call it a gimmick, but the theme of converting a unit into another kind of unit is reflective of the ingenuity and sort of improvised identity of the race. A faster transformation would increase the micro potential and the smoothness of the unit. Or, even better, a transformation while moving. It’s not going anywhere very fast anyway, so forcing it to endure a self stun during the transformation seems like overkill. The Banshee is in the same spirit of the Wraith, and provides Terran with a real ground presence from the air before Fusion Core. This makes Air compositions very dangerous with good micro and support.
Why I think the Raven is (in theory) even cooler than the Science Vessel
+ Show Spoiler +The Raven strikes me as a fantastic unit that supports all three modular army styles in SC2 Terran. It can provide buildings that block movement and harass, it creates safe zones that say “if you fight here you will lose,” and it has an ability that says “if you do not move your units in two seconds, they will die.” The unit has powerful tools to add to eliminate threats to Bio troops, bolster the zoning power of Mech, and mitigates damage to air forces. All of these abilities have counterplay. You can navigate around turrets, you can use tricks like hallucination or use non projectile attacks to soft counter Point Defense Drones. And you can split and run your units away from Seeker Missiles; however, each of these have costs in either apm, energy, or resources. If the Raven became the go to unit at Starport tech like the Science Vessel was, we would see more varied late game states in Terran match ups.
- Terran Infantry
SUGGESTIONS
+ Show Spoiler +
Because unit design in SC2 is very consistent with the identity of Terran these suggestions are not nearly as radical as my previous proposals, with the exception of Change Set #2.
- Bio
Polishing infantry to a shine.- A Micro-Encouraging Marauder
+ Show Spoiler [Concussive Shell] +- OUT: Anti-micro 50% slow.
- Projected Effects
Engaging Marauders, especially in small unit battles, currently turns your targeted units into Hydralisk, allowing no escape. It forces an engagement without choice. It’s binary: either your army will survive, or it completely dies. It creates a hard snowball for the terran, turning a small advantage into a large one without counter. With this change, the Marauder would be better equipped to bring the fight to targets with high armor such as well upgraded protoss armies, improving the marine’s effectiveness against them as well.
IN: It now provides a static -1 armor reduction to targets for 3 seconds, for a max stack of -2 (this debuff cannot make armor go into the negatives). - Projected Effects
- A more versatile Snipe that doesn't break the game.
+ Show Spoiler [Snipe] +- OUT: 25 (50 vs Psionic)
- Projected Effects
This one is pretty straight forward: Terrans can once again effectively use Ghosts to kill not casters. QXC used pre patch snipe to kill banelings during pushes and kill marines in early micro battles, TLO used them to snipe the SCV building a bunker for his crazy early push. This change (as proposed by QXC) would return that diversity of play without taking away from the Ghost's core role as a support unit that eliminates small, high profile threats. Further, the original balance change is preserved: Terran can't efficiently spam snipe all Zerg's Tier 3 units.
IN: 45 (25 vs Massive) - Projected Effects
- A Micro-Encouraging Marauder
- Mechanical
Making the mechanical army modular.- A Siege tank With More Utility and Counterplay
+ Show Spoiler +- Siege Tanks can now overkill targets.
- Reduced Supply to 2 from 3.
- Projected Changes
This would allow Terran to field a larger number of Siege Tanks in the late game and increase mech's defender’s advantage. Additionally, allowing tanks to waste shots permits more counterplay that is currently limited by smart fire. It also increases the value of spreading tanks out, creating the battle lines BroodWar fans love so much. This is not about making the game harder for its ownsake, the same idea is actually going on right now in the HotS beta with the Widow Mine. They are pushing a unique unit's power while giving the races means of countering it. This change would hopefully produce a similar dynamic.- On turtling
Yes, this would allow Terran to turtle a bit harder in that they could cover more ground, however, there is a wealth of counters to this playstyle. Warp Prisms can Zealot bomb tank lines, Blink Stalkers can cover the distance, Colossi can hit from 9 range, Immortals have Hardened Shield, Tempests will hammer tank lines from 15 range, Swarm Hosts can waste shots and push the line, Vipers can pull or Blind Tanks, Infestors can deploy Infested Terran in the line's blind spots, Burrow roaches can close and ambush, Ultralisks can charge. Each race now has a ton of ways to exploit weak spots in a tank line. It is time to return tanks to that meaty core unit feel again.
- On turtling
- Siege Tanks can now overkill targets.
- An AA Warhound
+ Show Spoiler +- Reintroduce Warhound as an AA unit called the Jotun (because Norse Mythology is awesome).
- Requires Armory and Tech Lab
- HP: 140
- Armor: 1
- Speed: 2.6
- Cost: 125/75
- Supply: 2
- Ground Attack: Rail Cannon
- Damage: 14 (+1 per upgrade)
- Cooldown: 1.5
- Damage: 14 (+1 per upgrade)
- Air Attack: Muspelheim Rockets
- Damage: 7 (+4 to Light) x2 (+1/+1 per upgrade)
- Cooldown: 1.5
- Damage: 7 (+4 to Light) x2 (+1/+1 per upgrade)
- Upgrade: Surtr Compound
- Researched at Tech Lab
- Requires Armory
- Cost: 100/100
- Time: 80s
- Effect: Muspelheim Rockets now have a .5 splash radius.
- Researched at Tech Lab
- Projected Effect
This new unit provides a supply-cheap means for Mech to defend itself from AA. It still is vulnerable to armored air units like the Carrier, tempest and Broodlords, but with good target firing on clumps of units, the Jotun can come through for the composition, without obsoleting the Viking. It also allows the player to have wider coverage AA, further encouraging the battle line effect, rather than a deathball effect. Instead of committing 18 supply to 3 thors covering a small area, you can commit 12 supply to 6 of the more mobile Jotun to protect your tank lines. More degrees of success, improved esports design.
+ Show Spoiler [Jotun] +
+ Show Spoiler [Comparison to the Beta Warhound] +STATS JOTUN WARHOUND/THOR CHANGE (DE)BUFF
HP 140 220 -36% ↓
Armor 1 1 -- -
Speed 2.7 2.8 -3% ↓
Minerals 125 150 -16% ↓
Vespene 75 75 -- -
Supply 2 2 -- -
-- GROUND ATTACK --
Damage 14 23 -39% ↓
Cooldown 1.5 1.7 -11% ↑
DPS 9.3 13.5 -31% ↓
Max DPS 11.4 15.3 -25% ↓
-- AIR ATTACK* --
Range 9 10 -10% ↓
Damage 7 x2 6 x4 -41% ↓
Damage vs Light 11 x2 12 x4 -54% ↓
Cooldown 1.5 3 -50% ↑
DPS 9.3 8 +16% ↑
DPS vs Light 14.6 16 -8% ↓
Max DPS 6.6 12 -44% ↓
Max DPS vs Light 11.3 24 -52% ↓
* Air attack compared with Thor's air attack
Surtr Compound Upgrade: Muspelheim rockets gain splash equal to the Thor. - Requires Armory and Tech Lab
- A Tier 3 Thor
+ Show Spoiler +- + Show Spoiler [Prerequisite] +
- Projected Effect
The Thor was supposed to break siege lines, and a slight increase to speed and health would help the unit fulfill that role. With the Jotun in place, the Thor has no need for an AA attack, and can focus on being a land-based spear-head unit. The armor increase allows the Thor to shrug off lighter blows. It is a Juggernaut and the enemy is the wall. If it does fall in battle, the Terrans are loathe to waste such a costly unit. The Immortality Protocol can restore the hulk to fighting form, creating miniature objectives over the course of a battle, and creates a powerful Point of Interest for spectators. These changes give the Thor a focused identity: High-Tech Siege-Breaker Assault Unit. Rather than the deathball-forming AA babysitter it currently is.
OUT: Armory
IN: Fusion Core
+ Show Spoiler [Health Points] +OUT: 400
IN: 450
+ Show Spoiler [Armor] +OUT: 2
IN: 3
+ Show Spoiler [Speed] +OUT: 1.88
IN: 2.25
+ Show Spoiler [Attacks] +OUT: Air Attack
OUT: Strike Cannon
IN: Immortality Protocol - Projected Effect
- A Siege tank With More Utility and Counterplay
- Starport
- A Cooler Raven
+ Show Spoiler +- + Show Spoiler [Turret Cost] +
- Projected Effects
Ravens should be the foil to the Infestor, where the Infestor provides a burst of high damage short lived units, The Raven should lay down a wall of low damage, high durability buildings. Bringing the cost in line makes sense and provides for cool Raven plays like making walls mid battlefield. Currently the Raven has 2 techlab upgrades and 2 engineering bay upgrades needed for their turrets to be effective. The Science Vessel had three total, so combining two of the raven upgrades make the transition to Ravens smoother and move viable, especially in the early mid-game.
OUT: 50 energy
IN: 25 energy
+ Show Spoiler [Upgrades] +OUT: Durable Materials
IN: Building Armor also gives the bonuses of Durable Materials - Projected Effects
- A More Microable Viking
+ Show Spoiler +- IN: Ragnarok Engine Upgrade
- Researched at Tech Lab
- Requires Armory
- Cost: 50/50
- Build Time: 60 seconds
- Effect: Allows Vikings to move while transforming
- Projected Effects
Anyone else remember TLO’s 1 base Viking harass against Idra in the WoL Beta? That was awesome. Today, Vikings’ ground form is used as a last resort rather than the raiding option Blizzard intended it to be. This is because the Viking effectively stuns itself during the transformation to and from air. If it were allowed to move, we could see dives on tank lines, or swoops into and away from Mineral lines. Movement is key in an esport, and the Viking’s identity is that of a mobile raider.
+ Show Spoiler [Specifications] +Ragnarok Engine Upgrade - Researched at Tech Lab
- A Cooler Raven
As a note: Terran’s design with relation to its identity is the by far the tightest of the three races. The only deviation from that identity is the Thor, which really just feels like it is in the wrong Tier, not the wrong race. The rest of my suggested changes seek to pronounce the identity of a playstyle or a unit, and bring more variety and counterplay to the game.[/quote]
Update: 11/25/2012
The Concussive Shell change didn't work well at all and has been removed. The main issue is that it made fights even faster and less readable than WoL. We are currently testing out Juggernaut Plating (+2 Armor) and are much happier with the results.
1. It isn't anti mirco. You can actually disengage from Bio armies without using Forcefield or Speedlings unless they choose to stim.
2. It makes Marauders more micro friendly. You have to work to kite with them. Positioning Marauder walls vs Lings and Zealots is a more rewarded skill set. Pulling back Marauders being healed by Medivacs is rewarded due to their high HP efficiency.
3. It makes fights last longer.
4. Its simple , intuitive, and it is consistent with the unit's theme and image.
Raven is going to get a bit of a rework. No 25 energy turrets. We are going to make the Sci Vessel super jealous.
Battle Cruisers have a new ability that allows them to work with mech based armies as a command unit. The ability costs and constantly consumes energy, making BCs a bit more reasonable vs Feedback.
We are currently testing Tech Reactors as a Fusion Core upgrade as a means of answering Terran reinforcement issues. The gameplay is ok, and seeing lots of tech intensive units late game is awesome, but it isn't really a decision and feels more like a reward for completing the tech tree rather than a real research.
