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On October 14 2012 12:38 BrokenMirage wrote:
I entirely agree with a majority of the proposed changes. However, the proposed raven change seems a bit too strong to me. A 25 energy auto-turret would be absurdly strong. Lone raven harass would be extremely destructive, as a mineral line would be shredded by 8 turrets queue-dropped. This is not even comparable to the infested terran considering a turret can last 3 min (or 4 if upgraded), and has 125 health, and has a similar level of mobility to the infested terran.
Ravens are 200gas. They are also slow and vulnerable. Plus I dont think anyone would waste 200 energy when it could cast HSMs off during the big engagement.
Turrets are very weak (unless you upgrade everything on them just to make them ok) unless in big big numbers. People dont realise how useless they are and especially as the game enters the mid/late game.
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On October 14 2012 12:56 Evangelist wrote:
Concussive Shell enables early game Terran micro. It doesn't shut it down. Without Conc Shell, bio would be completely unable to contend with anything. I wish people would get this right.
It enables early game micro? What micro? One thing for sure is that it shuts down micro for the other two races. What it does is make you commit. Theres NO running away or fighting away from it. This is almost as bad as chain fungals. You cant kite due to the effective movement speed being reduced.
And bio unable to contend? Ive seen numerous PvTs without conc shell and the Ts doing fine without them from early to late game. Plus wasn't it that concussive shells makes it worse during mid/late game engagements due to the slowed zealots being overtaken by the ones not being effected and i.e. the marauders changing targets?
On a side note, it seems like you're getting offended by other posters cheering the OP. Quite strange indeed.
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In a few threads you have made much better ideas than blizzards design team combined. Good job!!
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On October 14 2012 13:03 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 12:38 BrokenMirage wrote:
I entirely agree with a majority of the proposed changes. However, the proposed raven change seems a bit too strong to me. A 25 energy auto-turret would be absurdly strong. Lone raven harass would be extremely destructive, as a mineral line would be shredded by 8 turrets queue-dropped. This is not even comparable to the infested terran considering a turret can last 3 min (or 4 if upgraded), and has 125 health, and has a similar level of mobility to the infested terran. Ravens are 200gas. They are also slow and vulnerable. Plus I dont think anyone would waste 200 energy when it could cast HSMs off during the big engagement. Turrets are very weak (unless you upgrade everything on them just to make them ok) unless in big big numbers. People dont realise how useless they are and especially as the game enters the mid/late game.
Yes, the HSM should be foil to the infestor's FG. Either a raven fires their payload or an infestor stops them in their tracks.
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On October 14 2012 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 13:03 YyapSsap wrote:On October 14 2012 12:38 BrokenMirage wrote:
I entirely agree with a majority of the proposed changes. However, the proposed raven change seems a bit too strong to me. A 25 energy auto-turret would be absurdly strong. Lone raven harass would be extremely destructive, as a mineral line would be shredded by 8 turrets queue-dropped. This is not even comparable to the infested terran considering a turret can last 3 min (or 4 if upgraded), and has 125 health, and has a similar level of mobility to the infested terran. Ravens are 200gas. They are also slow and vulnerable. Plus I dont think anyone would waste 200 energy when it could cast HSMs off during the big engagement. Turrets are very weak (unless you upgrade everything on them just to make them ok) unless in big big numbers. People dont realise how useless they are and especially as the game enters the mid/late game. Yes, the HSM should be foil to the infestor's FG. Either a raven fires their payload or an infestor stops them in their tracks.
Or gets taken out on its way to the lone expansion without doing anything productive? Ravens are... well quite coin flippy in there current form. Either big big explosions, or nothing.
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With the AA to Warhound, widow mines are supposed to lose their AA, right? The AA right now seems to be shutting down almost any form of harass, which is not good for the gameplay.
Personally i think that the old (the one time use) widow mine, with the activate/deactivate mechanic, was funnier to use and had a higher skill ceiling.
Maybe removing the AA would even allow to reduce its supply to 1, tweaking the numbers accordingly.
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Ground only Widow Mine would be pretty essential with an AA Warhound/Jotun unit.
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if you're going to try to adderss balance issues, you NEED to understand the units thoroughly. While i like some of your ideas, your refusal to consider the huge relevance of attack speed, and attack speed changes from bw.
Also, your information on firebat, while at a decent basic level, neglects the much more complicated details on firebat damage. do you remember how many attacks it woudl take a firebat to kill a dragoon?
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On October 14 2012 17:46 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 13:03 YyapSsap wrote:On October 14 2012 12:38 BrokenMirage wrote:
I entirely agree with a majority of the proposed changes. However, the proposed raven change seems a bit too strong to me. A 25 energy auto-turret would be absurdly strong. Lone raven harass would be extremely destructive, as a mineral line would be shredded by 8 turrets queue-dropped. This is not even comparable to the infested terran considering a turret can last 3 min (or 4 if upgraded), and has 125 health, and has a similar level of mobility to the infested terran. Ravens are 200gas. They are also slow and vulnerable. Plus I dont think anyone would waste 200 energy when it could cast HSMs off during the big engagement. Turrets are very weak (unless you upgrade everything on them just to make them ok) unless in big big numbers. People dont realise how useless they are and especially as the game enters the mid/late game. Yes, the HSM should be foil to the infestor's FG. Either a raven fires their payload or an infestor stops them in their tracks. Or gets taken out on its way to the lone expansion without doing anything productive? Ravens are... well quite coin flippy in there current form. Either big big explosions, or nothing.
so are harassing Infestors. People lose them quite commonly before they do any damage. The getting taken out part of ravens is quite OK, but autoturrets are simply not good for harass, nor for a lot else.
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IMO these ideas are pretty decent, but Blizzard is unlikely to change.
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On October 14 2012 19:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 17:46 YyapSsap wrote:On October 14 2012 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 13:03 YyapSsap wrote:On October 14 2012 12:38 BrokenMirage wrote:
I entirely agree with a majority of the proposed changes. However, the proposed raven change seems a bit too strong to me. A 25 energy auto-turret would be absurdly strong. Lone raven harass would be extremely destructive, as a mineral line would be shredded by 8 turrets queue-dropped. This is not even comparable to the infested terran considering a turret can last 3 min (or 4 if upgraded), and has 125 health, and has a similar level of mobility to the infested terran. Ravens are 200gas. They are also slow and vulnerable. Plus I dont think anyone would waste 200 energy when it could cast HSMs off during the big engagement. Turrets are very weak (unless you upgrade everything on them just to make them ok) unless in big big numbers. People dont realise how useless they are and especially as the game enters the mid/late game. Yes, the HSM should be foil to the infestor's FG. Either a raven fires their payload or an infestor stops them in their tracks. Or gets taken out on its way to the lone expansion without doing anything productive? Ravens are... well quite coin flippy in there current form. Either big big explosions, or nothing. so are harassing Infestors. People lose them quite commonly before they do any damage. The getting taken out part of ravens is quite OK, but autoturrets are simply not good for harass, nor for a lot else.
Atleast you can burrow move them and sneak them into the expansions. Plus are you seriously comparing infestors to ravens?
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Sigh I loved Terran because they evaporated enemy armies within a few seconds if they were in position. But it worked the other way round as well.
The issue for the AutoTurrets are the missing attack upgrades. Infested Terrans would be crap lategame if they wouldn't get upgrades. And with 25 energy you would create an environment where people would go for a Raven AutoTurret push, before they become useless because they deal no damage against +3 armor. They also work like a universal PDD. Units priorize them, you absorb multiple siege tank shots with them when pushing and they occupy 0/0 lings for a year. Which would make a Raven even stronger for early game aggression, something where a Terran already is pretty strong and forced alot of balance changes, because the other races like to sit out till Blizzard steps in.
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This is absolutely brilliant. I'm a master terran player myself and LOVE your ideas. Especially the tier 3 thor for breaking siege lines, and the revised Warhound "Jotun". I hate how they nerfed the ghosts snipe, so you couldn't even one shot banelings let alone use it effectively against non-caster bio. You should seriously be the lead designer behind starcraft 2 as it is in need of an overhaul at the moment imho, for the good of both gameplay and spectating in esports.
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Awesome post as usual. I fully support it!
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On October 14 2012 21:14 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 19:28 Big J wrote:On October 14 2012 17:46 YyapSsap wrote:On October 14 2012 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 14 2012 13:03 YyapSsap wrote:On October 14 2012 12:38 BrokenMirage wrote:
I entirely agree with a majority of the proposed changes. However, the proposed raven change seems a bit too strong to me. A 25 energy auto-turret would be absurdly strong. Lone raven harass would be extremely destructive, as a mineral line would be shredded by 8 turrets queue-dropped. This is not even comparable to the infested terran considering a turret can last 3 min (or 4 if upgraded), and has 125 health, and has a similar level of mobility to the infested terran. Ravens are 200gas. They are also slow and vulnerable. Plus I dont think anyone would waste 200 energy when it could cast HSMs off during the big engagement. Turrets are very weak (unless you upgrade everything on them just to make them ok) unless in big big numbers. People dont realise how useless they are and especially as the game enters the mid/late game. Yes, the HSM should be foil to the infestor's FG. Either a raven fires their payload or an infestor stops them in their tracks. Or gets taken out on its way to the lone expansion without doing anything productive? Ravens are... well quite coin flippy in there current form. Either big big explosions, or nothing. so are harassing Infestors. People lose them quite commonly before they do any damage. The getting taken out part of ravens is quite OK, but autoturrets are simply not good for harass, nor for a lot else. Atleast you can burrow move them and sneak them into the expansions. Plus are you seriously comparing infestors to ravens?
No, I'm saying that "getting taken out on its way to the lone expansion" is something that happens to basically any harass unit quite often and is part of the deal when you want to harass. Infestors can burrow, DTs are cloaked, banshees can fly and can cloak, Medivacs fly, Ravens fly. All of them have some abilities that make catching them a bit harder than just a simple ground unit.
Ravens right now are not a great unit. They have their use against air play and are an interesting support tool, but for harassing they miss the expandability that a standard unit you get many of has and also an ability that is really made for harassing. Autoturrets are not, they are a tool that gives you a little more area control and even that they don't do well.
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Agreed, ravens are kind of a hit or miss unit with the HSM. Id like to see the range of hsm to be at least he range of feedback and fungal growth in order for ravens to compete with the other spellcasters. The turrets are ok, but no where near the infestors harrass capabilities. Perhaps blizzard could alter the "neosteel frame" upgrade on he ebay to also upgrade the static weaponry of terran (ie PF, turrets and auto-turrets damage output). I picked neosteel frame because it's never upgraded anyway.
Acually, including static weapon upgrade in the neosteel frame makes sense: lighter hull leaves more space for weapons, more space for weapons means more damage. A cost of 150/150 resources would make sense for this upgrade.
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Let me chime in on autoturrets.
Right now turrets are downright awful. When was the last time you saw someone getting a raven and plant turrets? Ravens are got for PDD and HSM.
Issues I see with turrets:
Space inefficient.
Durable my ass.
Can be outmicro´d in 2 clicks A.K.A. can only harass buildings.
Let me elaborate a little. Turrets are space inefficient, as every single turret takes 1 building spot. 4 turrets are the size of a bunker. How many beachballs(Infested Terrans) would fit in the space of a bunker? A lot more than 4. This issue goes further. Because of huge footstamp, you can only put a turret where you could place a building. You cannot put a turret into a mineral line, only around it. You can lob beachballs into gaps in the enemy army, into the smallest of crevasses you can fit 1 or 2. You can hardly place 3 turrets into a busy battle except smack in the middle, and if you do that, the enemy can just retreat and your own turrets block and hinder you from chasing.
Turrets might last forever and have 150 hp. They might last 3 minutes and deal ok with unupped zerglings, queens and workers but they don´t even dent spines, cannons, roaches, marauders and zealots. Against those units you can´t put them down since they are not actually durable healthwise, only timewise. It´s more like one really fat marauder(with +25 hp).
Against fast units like lings and hellions you can´t prevent a runby. Against workers you might even fail to kill a single one. The placing range is short, you can only plant them where no worker is at that very moment. Hell, the best way is to fly over the line and try to trap them with a wall of turrets. So without workers, you can kill buildings. Only that turrets hit like an unupped marine each. Also every defense structure counters turret harass, either by threatening the raven or killing the turrets. The harass potential is simply not worth the energy.
There´s an achievement for killing ~15 workers with turrets in 1 game. After a single raid, the enemy will be aware of the possibility and a. put 1-2 turrets/cannons/spines/spores behind every mineral line b. pull the workers quicker next time.
Overall they can´t
-be placed during battle
-harass workers
-defend positions
They are good
-harassing buildings, if you got the time
They´re only other use is to write your name on the map with them.
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Dude, I really like your ideas. I hope blizzard will consider introduce some changes you suggested.
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Thought: What if HSM speed up as time went on, making it effectively guaranteed damage to its primary target while giving ample time for the opponent to split and mitigate damage?
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Interesting post. I like a lot of the ideas you brought to the table. Especially the warhound/thor concept. Hopefully blizz at leasts takes a glance at this.
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EPT
