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[D] BW damage model

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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1 2 Next All
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 18:58:27
June 13 2012 16:22 GMT
#1
this is a very quick and dirty thread for anyone interested. in regards to 'breadth of gameplay', reducing the deathball, increasing unit survivability. consider utilizing the bw damage model of damage reduction rather than turrible, turrible damage?

its something ive had lurking in the back of mind since sc2 was released. recently ive had the time to alter a map (antiga) to try this damage system.

map download

and the spreadsheet with unit data.

for those who did not play BW, the damage system was as follows:

3 unit sizes: Large, Medium, Small
3 damage types: Normal, Explosive, Concussive

Explosive deals 100% damage to large, 75% to medium, 50% to small.
Concussive deals 100% damage to small, 50% to medium, 25% to large.

during the editing, and during some games with friends, i noticed immediately that this is probably not going to work, or would require significant balance changing. the issue is that blizzard's units in sc2 are designed for such specific situations. marauders for example, logically would fire what looks like a concussive attack like the vulture, but in reality, the marauder is not an anti-light unit. and what do you do with terran who seem to exclusively rocket based, which in bw were explosive types, which means thors do jack-all damage to mutalisks, and would instead need to be set at concussive.

i am uploading the data incase anyone else would like to play around or discuss it, but not something i intend to pursue in detail much further. have fun ... thanks for reading!
starleague forever
moskonia
Profile Joined January 2011
Israel1448 Posts
June 13 2012 16:29 GMT
#2
It is silly, there is no need at all for such a change, stop trying to copy BW, this is sc2, and it is a different game. The current damage system works well, no need to altar it...
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
June 13 2012 16:31 GMT
#3
The new damage system is actually one of the improvements SC2 made over BW in my opinion. I applaud you for your work though!
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 16:41:22
June 13 2012 16:40 GMT
#4
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
Total Annihilation Zero
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
June 13 2012 17:03 GMT
#5
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
Go play Warcraft 3.


User was warned for this post
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 17:05:58
June 13 2012 17:03 GMT
#6
On June 14 2012 02:03 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
Go play Warcraft 3.

your post doesnt even make sense
the mechanics mentioned are from bw not wc3
i doubt you ever played bw or wc3
Total Annihilation Zero
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
June 13 2012 17:20 GMT
#7
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
No it doesn't? In BW a goon did 20 explosive, in sc2 they would just make it 10 (+10 armoured), it's just how you write it down, they could have just as well said 10 (+5 medium) (+10 large). If you call it reduction or bonus damage doesn't change jack.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 17:30:15
June 13 2012 17:25 GMT
#8
On June 14 2012 02:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
No it doesn't? In BW a goon did 20 explosive, in sc2 they would just make it 10 (+10 armoured), it's just how you write it down, they could have just as well said 10 (+5 medium) (+10 large). If you call it reduction or bonus damage doesn't change jack.

you are right but still the problem is that most units do too much dps in my oppinion which is in most cases not a problem of the armor/damage system but the rate of fire or the too high base damage

PS: but 75% is more reduction than most of the sc2 units have?or do you have an example for units only doing 25% damage?
btw i think explosive does vs large 100% vs medium 75% vs small 50% damage
Total Annihilation Zero
Rucho
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States124 Posts
June 13 2012 17:25 GMT
#9
It's still pretty much the same idea. Stalkers and marauders are terrible against light units. Call it explosive damage if you want. this actually something I learned early on in SC2. There is no real thing as a damage bonus in SC2. Marauders and stalkers don't really do extra dps to armored, more like they do jack shit damage to anything that isn't armored.

Just think about how cost inefficient those units would be if they only ever did basic damage without the anti armor bonus.
antes los dollares eran bonitos, pero ahorra dollares ni ay
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
June 13 2012 17:33 GMT
#10
On June 14 2012 02:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
No it doesn't? In BW a goon did 20 explosive, in sc2 they would just make it 10 (+10 armoured), it's just how you write it down, they could have just as well said 10 (+5 medium) (+10 large). If you call it reduction or bonus damage doesn't change jack.


the damage amounts are more extreme. for example that same goon does 5 damage to a marine. the same if marauder kept 10+10=20 base damage.
starleague forever
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1977 Posts
June 13 2012 17:43 GMT
#11
no a goon does 10 damage to a marine but there are other examples for more extreme reduction
for example the vulture
Total Annihilation Zero
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
June 13 2012 17:43 GMT
#12
On June 14 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2012 02:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
No it doesn't? In BW a goon did 20 explosive, in sc2 they would just make it 10 (+10 armoured), it's just how you write it down, they could have just as well said 10 (+5 medium) (+10 large). If you call it reduction or bonus damage doesn't change jack.


the damage amounts are more extreme. for example that same goon does 5 damage to a marine. the same if marauder kept 10+10=20 base damage.
You're wrong, explosive is 50% to small, 75% to medium, concussive is 25% to large, 50% to medium.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
moskonia
Profile Joined January 2011
Israel1448 Posts
June 13 2012 18:50 GMT
#13
On June 14 2012 02:25 Rucho wrote:
It's still pretty much the same idea. Stalkers and marauders are terrible against light units. Call it explosive damage if you want. this actually something I learned early on in SC2. There is no real thing as a damage bonus in SC2. Marauders and stalkers don't really do extra dps to armored, more like they do jack shit damage to anything that isn't armored.

Just think about how cost inefficient those units would be if they only ever did basic damage without the anti armor bonus.


I don't think you understand the game so good, or maybe your stats are just wrong, cause what you said is very not true/ Stalker fights alot of time against light units and is very decent, also the marauder is ok vs units that are not armored. Also, stalker does 10(+4) which means the damage bonus is not that huge, compared to a unit like the immortal, or even the marauder.

Finally, both stalkers has special abilities which makes the effective even when they do less damage (blink and C shells), so they are worth it even while fighting a light unit.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
June 13 2012 18:59 GMT
#14
On June 14 2012 02:43 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2012 02:33 a176 wrote:
On June 14 2012 02:20 SiskosGoatee wrote:
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
No it doesn't? In BW a goon did 20 explosive, in sc2 they would just make it 10 (+10 armoured), it's just how you write it down, they could have just as well said 10 (+5 medium) (+10 large). If you call it reduction or bonus damage doesn't change jack.


the damage amounts are more extreme. for example that same goon does 5 damage to a marine. the same if marauder kept 10+10=20 base damage.
You're wrong, explosive is 50% to small, 75% to medium, concussive is 25% to large, 50% to medium.


ah yes ... got a bit mixed up there
starleague forever
MNdakota
Profile Joined March 2012
United States512 Posts
June 14 2012 01:25 GMT
#15
Yeah, I prefer how the Brood War damage system took place.
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
MavercK
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2181 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-14 02:04:48
June 14 2012 02:03 GMT
#16
On June 14 2012 01:29 moskonia wrote:
It is silly, there is no need at all for such a change, stop trying to copy BW, this is sc2, and it is a different game. The current damage system works well, no need to altar it...


these posts make me sick, if you have nothing to offer other than "your idea is stupid and so are you" then dont post.

in regards to the OP. i think you should look at the units role more than what it's attack "looks like"
marauder should definitely do explosive. but again. in BW. not all that many units had special modifiers. alot just did flat damage. so consider that aswell. maybe marauder should not have any bonus/negative damage at all?

good luck anyway.
Brood War Remake - SC2BW - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145316
Amlitzer
Profile Joined August 2010
United States471 Posts
June 14 2012 02:59 GMT
#17
You're forgetting that in bw units did 100% damage to protoss shields, no matter the damage type or the size of the unit. IMO, I think the concept behind the sc2 system is better than in bw, especially since medium sized units were such a minority in bw. The sc2 system just needs to be changed with more armor types and less base damage/dps for units.
"Not even justice, I want to get truth!"
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
June 14 2012 03:07 GMT
#18
On June 14 2012 02:03 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again
Go play Warcraft 3.


Just started playing Warcraft 3, I enjoy it a lot more than SC2 solely for this reason.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Veldril
Profile Joined August 2010
Thailand1817 Posts
June 14 2012 04:55 GMT
#19
I don't really think that the BW model is applicable in the modern RTS for a couple of reasons.

1. New player tend to view the negative modifier in a very negative way.

I don't really have a direct example in RTS but in WoW, players used to complain about negative modifier of the rest system. Back then, the rest system was that if the player fight mobs for a long time, they would get -50% penalty on exp gain on mob kills. Players hate that, so Blizz reduce the exp gain from mob kills by half, and change the rest system to gain 100% exp bonus on mob kill, if they stay in the city or log off long enough.

I think Blizz learn from that and apply to all games they made. It would be easier to accept for new players that a unit does extra damage to a certain type of enemies, than the unit does reduced damage to units. And that leads to...

2. It's easier to learn the game with positive identifiers than negative identifiers because players favor them more. Also, BW damage system has two modifiers for a single type of damage. I find that excessively confusing to learn and could potentially put off casual players in the long run.

3. The current system is more flexible. It is not restricted as a whole compare to BW that the modifier is restricted by damage types. The number can be adjusted on one unit without affecting other units and that make a lot of stuff easier in term of design.

I think if the battle feel too quick, then reducing the damages or attack rates of all units might be a better choice.
Without love, we can't see anything. Without love, the truth can't be seen. - Umineko no Naku Koro Ni
Lunchador
Profile Joined April 2010
United States776 Posts
June 14 2012 05:03 GMT
#20
On June 14 2012 01:40 TaShadan wrote:
damage reduction means the units life longer in most cases which leads to more micro and more positioning fights rather than 3 second encounters with one side totally obliterated
in my oppinion the old system was better
but its impossible to just change that now
you have to change and balance every unit again


I have a feeling we're suddenly back in 2010. The damage system is a lot more flexible with how you can just say "I want this unit to do this damage to this armor type", and the old damage system theory still carries over virtually intact from SC1 to SC2.

Stalkers, marauders, tanks, void rays, and vikings - units pretty much representing their BW equivalent, or a dragoon - do "explosive damage" and it's way clear that they aren't so effective vs light units like zealots, zerglings, marines, and mutalisks.

The hellion is comparable to the vulture because both do "concussive" damage. They're both extremely horrible at taking out armored units with their normal attack.

Really, you'd have to redesign all the units from the ground up again if you were to revert to a static system.
Defender of truth, justice, and noontime meals!
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