EPTNewbie Mini XV
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
Apropos to learning from last game, I can't help but feel that we should strongly consider lynching lurkers if any do appear. Of course it's a question of degrees...I just don't want to see another Mufaa/skware. As far as whether or not to lynch, do you think you are putting the wagon before the horse here? What are your thoughts on putting this decision off until we see what cases develop, and how strong they are? Also, just food for thought, you list two out of the four scenarios as being no-lynch optimal; this of course leaves the other two as undecided/potentially good day 1 lynch setups. These being close to equal, wouldn't you rather lynch in the event we get lucky and hit scum? | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:32 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped Also, i have a reccomendation, please people, dont use PAST games as a guide, Why are you discouraging the use of meta arguments? Town needs to use any information available to them to hunt scum; having a firm example of how a person plays as town/scum is definitely valuable information. So (in essence) you say don't use past games to inform your ideas/opinions on the current game. Yet you do this twice in the same post: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:32 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped I like the discussion about the NL on day 1, having played mafia 13 and having a lot of lurkers got me thinking about using day 1 lynch and calling out lurkers is the best for the town, especially those lurkers who goes super active the last hours of the day, we have to keep an eye on them. + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:32 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped the last (and only) game i played, town got fucked (in part) thanks to this...i was mafia, lurking, bad town play and bad reads based on past games granted us the victory, only 1 mafia died thanks to a very lucky shot. Can you explain this contradiction? Also, this caught my eye: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2012 13:46 Unforgiven_ve wrote: --snipped If someone wants to be "town leader" please take all this in account, im all in for some kind of town guidance and not a FFA f**kfest. Why on Earth are you trying to get us to talk about who should be leading us? This will do nothing but create a power struggle, and a lot of wasted time. Each townie needs to lead him/herself first and foremost. ##FoS: Unforgiven_ve Now to Miltonkram. Your early vote and subsequent retraction, combined with your apologies reminds me a lot of recent history (Milton was scum last game). It looks like you are being aggressive without conviction, aka being aggressive just for the sake of looking aggressive. I'm watching you too. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
But yes, in short Xatalos, I am with you on Unforgiven_ve | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
Are you suspicious of sciberbia at all? What are your thoughts on Milton's and Unforgiven's play thus far? | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
There's a lot going on in the thread, so you should have plenty to talk about. There are 2 cases with some momentum (Unforgiven and Eishi_Ki), cattivik is being hyper aggressive and has asserted sciberbia is surely town, we have two other lurker besides you so far (Ange777, suki), and Milton has been sort of all over the place. Talk about any of these. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
I can sympathize with the language issue, it's not something that should be held against you. That said, your defense was pretty jumbled. You didn't touch on why you discouraged meta-game arguments, and the related contradiction I asked you to explain. I found it difficult to follow who your defense was specifically addressing. You predicted that we would question why you are telling people to slow down with their accusations, and you're absolutely right there. It's very weird for a townie to tell everyone not to pursue their reads aggressively. The clock is always ticking, and 48 hours goes by quickly. I don't want to lock in my vote until I hear more from you, but your defense has done nothing to allay my suspicions. People accusing cattivik Consider both sides of the spectrum. Can you really not see a logical town motivation behind his posts thus far? Getting in everyone's faces, tunneling Eishi_Ki, and staunch, energetic defense of his actions. He has been very active thus far. I don't agree with his methods, but they sure as hell read town to me. Don't make mountains out of molehills. Consider not just his words, but the aims behind them. Cattivik and Eishi_Ki Frankly I think you are both wrong about each other. I'm not as sure on Eishi_Ki as I am on Cattivik, but I can say definitively that your (Cattavik) case on Eishi_Ki is really weak. You decided to vote for him based on the fact that his schedule means he can't be around during lynch time, and him wondering if it's a good thing that he isn't around during that time. Regarding that second point, others in the thread were discussing about how scum and lurkers can sway the vote at the last minute. You are making too much out of what amounts to basically nothing, and longer you pursue it, the less objective it's going to become. Be self-aware of tunneling, and consider outside input on your suspicions. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
Nobody is going to accuse you of bandwagoning if you are directly asked your opinion on someone. That said, what is your opinion on Unforgiven? | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
If you can't be bothered to share your thoughts, even if they are only fledgling thoughts, then why are you playing? Why should we keep you alive? At best you are a rogue vote, and at worst you are scum. Do you not see that from our point of view, you not wanting to comment on the events happening around you makes you look useless and scummy? The longer you do this, the more and more I want to kill you off day 1 so you aren't left herp derping around later on. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
I did somehow miss that first part of your argument against Eishi_Ki. Bandwangoning can definitely be scummy, but on its own its not a sure-fire scum tell. Sometimes people just think alike and want their voices heard. It's every townie's perogative to build up content and contribute, and it's just not possible for it to all be original. This is especially true when the sample size is small (day 1). Regarding how he defends, he pretty much addressed your concerns, The reason it looked paltry is because your case is paltry. There just isn't a lot to explain. He's not around at X time, can't be helped. He posted his thoughts on you, which were similar to what others were thinking. And the joke was...well, a joke. He moved on because he was done with your points, as I see it. I won't try to dissuade you further, but know that I think your case is not very strong at the moment. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
Cattivik has been 100% confident in all of his opinions so far. Frankly it would be more strange if he wasn't. His reasoning is that sciberbia got in the thread early, and really got discussion going. He posted a day 1 strategy that, while not popular, was good intentioned and sound enough logically. He stuck to it, and wasn't shy about it. To me it looked like he got his role pm, then got right to it crafting a good post that would get us talking and perhaps give us a direction. While I'm not about to guarantee that sciberbia is town, I read his posts as pretty strongly town; cattavik just took the sentiment to the extreme. His pursuit of Eishi_Ki is similarly extreme. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with his methods or conclusions, but the objective is to smoke out scum. I just don't see scum putting themselves in the spotlight so deliberately like he is. Scum in general are terrified of being held accountable for positions they took in the past, so they don't come down hard on any issue without a lot of thought and a measure of caution. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
Just really quick, I want to point out a reading error in your case sciberbia. + Show Spoiler + On June 01 2012 11:18 sciberbia wrote: But then he analyzes the possible outcomes of the vote from the perspective that Miltonkram is town. Notice that suki considers the scenario that I am mafia. At that point in the game, it looked pretty damn unlikely that me and Milton were both mafia. So why is suki analyzing what a townie Miltonkram stands to gain from that vote? What's the point of that analysis? His possible lynch outcomes all assume that Milton is scum, not town. He is saying that, as scum, bussing you extremely early would give him big town credit if you were scum as well. He also would have deniability if you flipped town, because he did retract his vote after all. It is still a weird analysis, as scum don't bus eachother without a strong reason. That out of the way, I agree that his first real meaty post wasn't all that meaty. All it needed to be was the final paragraph, where he comes to the decision that Milton is town. There is no reason to waste all that space entertaining the notion that Milton is scum if you are going to conclude he is town. What's more, the end conclusion has to match the dissertation. If you are going to give Milton a bunch of strikes for scummy behavior, it better be countered with more points that highlight his townieness if the end conclusion is that he is town. I didn't see this happening. This could be scummy play, or just bad analysis by a townie not sure how to contribute. Need to keep going to decide how to read this. Concerning the second post. I noticed something: On May 31 2012 23:51 suki wrote: --snipped First, the ability to change your vote kind of lessens the importance of Milton's extremely fast voting, and sort of discounts a lot of my initial suspicions of him On May 31 2012 23:51 suki wrote: --snipped And yet he still sits on the fence about sciberbia, and 'everyone else'. Just like s0lstice, I find it suspicious that he's so aggressive without conviction. He says his suspicions based on Milton's aggressiveness are reduced because he found out you can change your vote, but then maintains that Milton is being super aggressive, and it's making him suspicious. To me this look like circular logic, and it sticks out. In his defense post, this immediately jumped out: On June 01 2012 14:50 suki wrote: --snipped For what it's worth, I've only changed my mind on someone once, and that is on Cattivik. Let me go over the accusations brought to me. On June 01 2012 14:50 suki wrote: --snipped Let me state it really clearly here: I wanted to acknowledge to s0lstice that it was possible to read Cattivik as townie, but that didn't mean that he had to be townie. I never retracted my suspicions on Cattivik, and in fact asked him to start talking about other players, so that there would be more information about him other than a petty quarrel between one other player. This again is in the same post, and it seems contradictory. Changing his mind on cattavik presumably means that he stopped being so suspicious, yet later he says his suspicions have not changed. If you can see both town and scum motivation on a players actions, then you really have nothing, no case. A case begins when an action reads purely scum. Regarding the accusation of piling on suspicion to players who are already under suspicion, I think you are assigning too much weight there. It's a small game, and if you feel suspicious of someone, chances are so does somebody else. Sometimes they are going to beat you to the punch in posting them as well. Suki touched on this I believe. Either you post, and catch flak for bandwagoning, or you stay silent, and catch flak for being silent. Bandwagoning is most useful to look at after someone gets lynched. You look at who pushed it, who were late comers to the case, and who was against it. You also say that when he does speak about what's going on around him, it looks non-commital and political. Here I have to agree. This does look suspicious. To sum up: I think there are enough points here that the case is worth pursuing. Suki, can you respond to the stuff I added to what sciberbia said? | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
Also Milton...seriously? That huge case against a lurker? The problem with a lurker is obvious, they are lurking. Your 'most damning point' is a non-point. She (I think she is a she? sorry if I am wrong Ange) is playing two games. We even talked about it in the pre-game. She was subbed in to TL Mafia LV before this game started. Making enough time for one game is hard enough, let alone two. This does not forgive her for lurking, she simply is choosing to favor the other game, and maybe will get lynched because of it. How you read this as purely scummy makes no sense to me. I'd like everyone else to have a look at Milton's filter...he is climbing into scum territory on my list. | ||
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