Hello, I made a quick search about TVP and didn't find anything. Anyways, i hope it'll be useful for some people. There's a lot to discuss about it, so what i'll do is give links that i found interesting. I just want to share those ideas with people, and see what you guys think about it. Please try to understand what TVP really is about, and don't say "lol it's a buncha bull shit they just want to make money" or "OMG we will be controlled by machines omg matrix". First of all their website : http://www.thevenusproject.com/
A little bit about Jacque Fresco (taken from Wikipedia) : Jacque Fresco (born March 13, 1916), is a self-educated structural designer, architectural designer, philosopher of science, concept artist, educator, and futurist. His interests span a wide range of disciplines including several in philosophy, science, Architecture and engineering.[4] Fresco writes and lectures extensively on his view of subjects ranging from the holistic design of sustainable cities, energy efficiency, natural resource management, cybernated technology, advanced automation, and the role of science in society, focusing on the benefits he thinks they may bring. With his colleague, Roxanne Meadows, he is the founder and director of an organization known as The Venus Project, located in Venus, Florida.[5] He currently promotes a fundamental change in anthropic organization through the global implementation of a novel socio-economic system predicated on social cooperation and scientific methodology, called a Resource-based Economy.
The video that I found very interesting (Future by design):
Jacque Fresco talking about words, thinking, creativity :
This is more about what made him think that way, and his life :
I'm pretty bad at presenting things, and for TVP there's a lot to talk about, that's why i prefer link you to videos and sites that made me think. I tried to criticize TVP but I never find something incorrect in his talks and in his system. If I did something wrong, would it be advertising or just like presenting wrong or I don't know what, please tell me. With kind regards
EDIT : I watched and re-watched all the Zeitgeist, and I'm just gonna give you the links in case you wanna check it out. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Im surprised there is no thread about this already. Anyways, TVP is a moneyless socialistic technocracy (correct me if im wrong) and thats all I need to know to dismiss it right away. These ideas are so old. Its all that damn zeitgeist movies fault for reincarnating that nut Fresco and his total disdain for basic economics.
Your engaging in the most ambitious social project one could ever imagine. You would think a basic knowledge of the science of the allocation of earths resources (economics) would be prerequisite, but no. Its like someone who knows first aid attempting brain surgery. You might have good intentions but damn if it isnt gunna be messy.
Read a bit about the price mechanism and how it allocates resources, and tell me how a computer that doesnt even exist yet is going to solve that problem.
Jeesus christ, I truly hope people don't believe in this venus project.
This is the most unsustainable unrealistic economy I've ever seen. Look at the models they've created, how on earth is that a feasible way to live? It's incredibly inefficient. It absolutely cripples any sense of incentive to work above average or for personal reasons. I admire the idea of parts of a collectivized state, but this really isn't feasible.
Additionally, whilst the current system is under justified scrutiny, I find it laughable that anyone who believes in this system stumbles at this question. 'Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?' Always draws a blank- because people that believe in this system do not understand economics. Period. I'm sorry to be that arrogant, but stuff like this pisses me off.
We should be spending more time/effort in to re-vamping the current system. Massive changes are needed, and focus and effort should be put there. Not theorycrafting pointless impossible economic models to follow.
Zeitgeist is just as stupid.
Come on people, tell me I'm a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda. Yawn.
Hey Lettuce, are you just going to ask the question "Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?" and make fun of the guy for drawing a blank, while not answering the question yourself?
On April 20 2012 22:19 Dr.Lettuce wrote: I see this posted on my facebook quite a bit.
Jeesus christ, I truly hope people don't believe in this venus project.
This is the most unsustainable unrealistic economy I've ever seen. Look at the models they've created, how on earth is that a feasible way to live? It's incredibly inefficient. It absolutely cripples any sense of incentive to work above average or for personal reasons. I admire the idea of parts of a collectivized state, but this really isn't feasible.
Additionally, whilst the current system is under justified scrutiny, I find it laughable that anyone who believes in this system stumbles at this question. 'Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?' Always draws a blank- because people that believe in this system do not understand economics. Period. I'm sorry to be that arrogant, but stuff like this pisses me off.
We should be spending more time/effort in to re-vamping the current system. Massive changes are needed, and focus and effort should be put there. Not theorycrafting pointless impossible economic models to follow.
Zeitgeist is just as stupid.
Come on people, tell me I'm a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda. Yawn.
Your a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda.
On April 20 2012 22:19 Dr.Lettuce wrote: I see this posted on my facebook quite a bit.
Jeesus christ, I truly hope people don't believe in this venus project.
This is the most unsustainable unrealistic economy I've ever seen. Look at the models they've created, how on earth is that a feasible way to live? It's incredibly inefficient. It absolutely cripples any sense of incentive to work above average or for personal reasons. I admire the idea of parts of a collectivized state, but this really isn't feasible.
Additionally, whilst the current system is under justified scrutiny, I find it laughable that anyone who believes in this system stumbles at this question. 'Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?' Always draws a blank- because people that believe in this system do not understand economics. Period. I'm sorry to be that arrogant, but stuff like this pisses me off.
We should be spending more time/effort in to re-vamping the current system. Massive changes are needed, and focus and effort should be put there. Not theorycrafting pointless impossible economic models to follow.
Zeitgeist is just as stupid.
Come on people, tell me I'm a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda. Yawn.
Your a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda.
On April 20 2012 22:19 Dr.Lettuce wrote: I see this posted on my facebook quite a bit.
Jeesus christ, I truly hope people don't believe in this venus project.
This is the most unsustainable unrealistic economy I've ever seen. Look at the models they've created, how on earth is that a feasible way to live? It's incredibly inefficient. It absolutely cripples any sense of incentive to work above average or for personal reasons. I admire the idea of parts of a collectivized state, but this really isn't feasible.
Additionally, whilst the current system is under justified scrutiny, I find it laughable that anyone who believes in this system stumbles at this question. 'Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?' Always draws a blank- because people that believe in this system do not understand economics. Period. I'm sorry to be that arrogant, but stuff like this pisses me off.
We should be spending more time/effort in to re-vamping the current system. Massive changes are needed, and focus and effort should be put there. Not theorycrafting pointless impossible economic models to follow.
Zeitgeist is just as stupid.
Come on people, tell me I'm a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda. Yawn.
Your a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda.
I love how people who dont go for every new conspiracy thing that comes out are blind puppet sheeple listenin to the mans propaganda. Zeitgeisters dont even know who 'the man' is.
On April 20 2012 22:23 Zorkmid wrote: Hey Lettuce, are you just going to ask the question "Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?" and make fun of the guy for drawing a blank, while not answering the question yourself?
You're doing the same thing you just mocked.
Actually I have a few my self. I have had endless facebook debates with my friends over this shit. I just really don't want to go in to detail, and be belittled by semantics. If you really want I'll pm you everything I've said.
However the big difference being, I'm not a supporter of the system. Which entirely changes my rational. People that believe in this system back it and never give any time for the criticisms. It's different for me as I don't believe in this system so I attack it.
I gather from the way you wrote that, that you are supporter of this system. Please tell me what you find wrong with it?
Extreme idealism doesn't work in the real world. /thread
Put into terms that people should be able to understand. You absolutely cannot abolish greed and laziness. These two unquestionable facts eliminate any possibility of something like this being possible. Nothing more needs to be said.
On April 20 2012 22:23 Zorkmid wrote: Hey Lettuce, are you just going to ask the question "Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?" and make fun of the guy for drawing a blank, while not answering the question yourself?
You're doing the same thing you just mocked.
Actually I have a few my self. I have had endless facebook debates with my friends over this shit. I just really don't want to go in to detail, and be belittled by semantics. If you really want I'll pm you everything I've said.
However the big difference being, I'm not a supporter of the system. Which entirely changes my rational. People that believe in this system back it and never give any time for the criticisms. It's different for me as I don't believe in this system so I attack it.
I gather from the way you wrote that, that you are supporter of this system. Please tell me what you find wrong with it?
I'm not a supporter of the system, nor do I have any arguments or opinions one way or the other on the subject. I just hate reading posts that say: "THIS IS STOOPID !!1ONE!!" and have basically nothing else to say.
It's great that you've had facebook arguments with your buds, but why post in this thread to say nothing about the subject except that it is stupid because of ___________.
Lettuce, I don't get how you chose your criteria for dismissing people. You ask them what's wrong with the system, and if they don't answer, you label them as dumb or w/e?
Why don't you pull out the aces out of the sleeve, and ask "how are you going to solve this this and this?"
It's like I say to you, I have a car that's better than yours in areas A, B and C. And then you come in "Tell me one thing that's wrong with it?". I stay silent, and you happily conclude that your car is better ? Seems logical...
On April 20 2012 22:53 niteReloaded wrote: Lettuce, I don't get how you chose your criteria for dismissing people. You ask them what's wrong with the system, and if they don't answer, you label them as dumb or w/e?
Why don't you pull out the aces out of the sleeve, and ask "how are you going to solve this this and this?"
It's like I say to you, I have a car that's better than yours in areas A, B and C. And then you come in "Tell me one thing that's wrong with it?". I stay silent, and you happily conclude that your car is better ? Seems logical...
Horrendous analogy.
Never mind.
First off problems with the current system- corruption, abuse of power blah blah blah. There is absolutely no rhetoric control to stop the prevalent world problems occurring in this new system. Who is to stop the creators and more powerful individuals behind this project becoming corrupt assholes?
Humans are self-interested. I would argue it's a human ingrained trait. TvP relies on the fact that people will not compete with each other. That makes no sense at all. Coupled with the fact there is no basic monetary system, self incentives are now non-existent. Why would you work hard? Why would you go the extra mile, why innovate? Why be different if it leads to nothing. So much research and progress will slow down, not to a halt but to seriously below modern age levels.
Now you could argue that people will do things for the good of other people and developing society as a whole. Admirable? Very. Realistic? Not a chance.
These are the basis of the main problems with this system. I could go on and on and on, literally.
-Open to corruption. Does not fix upon old model. Still controlled by much more powerful individuals.
- No replacement incentive to the current monetary system.
First off problems with the current system- corruption, abuse of power blah blah blah. There is absolutely no rhetoric control to stop the prevalent world problems occurring in this new system. Who is to stop the creators and more powerful individuals behind this project becoming corrupt assholes?
I think the idea is that there's less need to become corrupt, because everyone should have access to everything.
Humans are self-interested. I would argue it's a human ingrained trait. TvP relies on the fact that people will not compete with each other. That makes no sense at all. Coupled with the fact there is no basic monetary system, self incentives are now non-existent. Why would you work hard? Why would you go the extra mile, why innovate? Why be different if it leads to nothing. So much research and progress will slow down, not to a halt but to seriously below modern age levels.
I'd imagine this is the main counter-argument to the resource-based economy. There are tons and tons of people that work hard JUST to make money and gain power. There are still scientists out there today that do what they do for the thrill of exploration and gaining knowledge. I don't think you'd see a giant slow down in R&D progression.
There are people today that aren't "in the race" and don't want to be. There will always be people like this to be sure, but I don't think that it's the majority of us.
It would be quite nice to have this kind of life on our planet... Maybe in a thousand years... If we get really lucky and evolve our society, economy and infrastructure in a timely manner
@ KvltMan thanks, i'll go and check it out. @ Dekoth you didn't listen to Jacque at all. What can prove you that laziness and greed cannot be abolished ? How can you affirm that ? @Dr.Lettuce you have to understand that if the environment changes, the people's mind changes too. That means that it is hard to predict "we will be like this or like that" "people won't do anything". You can't say that because we never explored that environment. What says Zorkmid is true : there are still scientists out there today that do what they do for the thrill of exploration and gaining knowledge.
Seriously, check out those videos because they're very interesting and I think that they answer to a lot of questions. And Jacque doesn't take about an utopia or whatever "ideology". He just says that it is a much better system that what we're currently living in. Period.
not to derail by any measure, as i know barely anything on this project, but i just found it funny that he has a resume on the homepage, and it is -huge-
EPT
