EPTThe Venus Project - Page 16
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
CursOr
United States6335 Posts
| ||
|
Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Despite every opec member wanting to sell as much as possible, they still limit themselves collectivly. Your post does make sense though, and i can only say that i dont believe oil is running out. Peak oil is a scam. Latest research now shows that usa can be the 3rd largest oil producer within 10-15 years with scale oil. Have read alot on the oil industry, and a few family members of me have worked all their life for shell and they all told me that oil wont run out for 100 years+ I do agree though that this isnt realy hard evidence , its merely a personal believe. | ||
|
JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:54 Rassy wrote: to sum it up: I see manny motives for big companys to not create abundance, and the only motive i see for creating it (competition and be better and cheaper then your competitor) is not working in reality, at least i dont see it. Most industries fall into the economic category called monopolistic competition where profits are maximized by producing until marginal revenue equals marginal cost. It's not more profitable to restrict supply to boost up the price - your competitor will just say 'thanks for the extra market share' all the way to the bank. Nor would it be more profitable to just buy them out - they aren't stupid and would only sell out if you spent more buying them than the higher price would be worth. They only way you could make more money by restricting supply is by forming a cartel where everyone involved agrees to raise prices together - which is illegal unless a government does it (ex. OPEC). I'm not sure where you are not seeing competition to be honest. Outside of OPEC even oil companies compete and invest heavily in increasing supply (shale oil, tar sands, horizontal drilling etc.). | ||
|
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
This is arguably the reason behind the idea "the war in iraq was for oil", as some people believe the US government wanted to reduce OPEC's control and give more oil control back to Shell, Exxon, etc. (They control about 6-7% of Oil in the world nowadays, compared to 80% before OPEC) That's a discussion for another time however. As for peak oil. It's not so much that oil reserves are gone, it's that we aren't able to produce as much as we once were able to. And the fact that natural gas isn't taken into account (which you are right, the USA is no.3 in terms of NG reserves) makes it a lot more complicated. | ||
|
DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
If a company could make oil abundant they would definetely do so because that means they could keep selling it, as once oil is used it is hard to recycle it and therefore people have to go back and by more. Artificial scarcity is completely different then abundance. In fact, the entire reason behind aritificial scarcity is a lack of abundance. We all know oil is going to run out sooner rather then later, so naturally companies want to make as much as they can off of what's left. Were oil abundant, companies would just try to sell a lot more of it, as that's much easier and efficient (and the demand is astronomically high) then trying to hoard it/parcel it out slowly. In fact, a large percentage of companies in this world would love abudance. The only ones who wouldn't are those that use 100% recyclable products or those that are unable to access the abudance. (i.e. it's buried too deep underground,etc) No company set on making profits loves abundance. They hate it and actively denies that it exist or stops it. And remember nobody is saying that just because a company is manufacturing scarcity does it mean that we have abundance in that area but what it does mean is that it is less scarce then we are led to believe. They love cost efficiency and a lot if not always does cost efficiency clash in someway with real efficiency that is tied to nature rather than fictional currency and profits. | ||
|
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On June 02 2012 07:44 DeliCiousVP wrote: No company set on making profits loves abundance. They hate it and actively denies that it exist or stops it. And remember nobody is saying that just because a company is manufacturing scarcity does it mean that we have abundance in that area but what it does mean is that it is less scarce then we are led to believe. They love cost efficiency and a lot if not always does cost efficiency clash in someway with real efficiency that is tied to nature rather than fictional currency and profits. I think we're mixing terms here. I'm not refering directly to the economic term of abundance, that would imply that something is so available that it is free. Nothing in our current infrastructure is free, all of it requires capital, be it labor, other materials, technology, etc, etc. Even if we were to remove money from the equation, it would still take tools to mine coal from the ground and people (or robots) to operate those tools. (+ a bunch of other things) I'm more referencing that if a product had unlimited accessable quantities. Companies would love that. No oil company truly wants oil to run out, because even if makes them a profit today, it will leave them bankrupt tomorrow. | ||
|
DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
No company set on making profits loves abundance. They hate it and actively denies that it exist or stops it. How many times are you going to repeat this incredibly untrue factoid? Fart-facts indeed. | ||
|
AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
| ||
|
JesusHadAegis
Australia11 Posts
We have been led blindly by an illusion. A mistaken inherent understanding that we already have a profound knowledge of our belonging. This self-perpetuating awareness that manifests a fiery spark like that of Tesla's lightbulb is a pre-fabricated model which is reflected from the self. A superficial construct that brings chaos and order. We live in a world of hatred, bigotry, class elitism, ego, narcissim, entitlements to wealth, privilege and power. A world where political heads lie, slander and take us into a repute of political despotism. A world that has never been nastier, meaner, greedier, more arrogant and conceited. A society that swallows partisan corporate media and a God that co-exhists in a seperate existence. That is the conceptual model we have adapted as reality. Until now, no person has gone through the vigorous intensity of feeling that will unite our civilisation as a singlular benefactor. That's what hurts my soul more then anything, is knowing the system is broken and people just continue on, submitting... to be so naive to ignore it because they have already let go. It's nothing to complex, nothing particularly mind blowing. It's a soothing science that few understand, but even the smart and interesting people have begun to be nothing but pervasive. That it's structure lay so deeply embedded in the roots it trickles through the crevasses rotting the very core only seeding a catalyst for the same homogeneous paradox. This is my first post on TL but I have been an avid reader for a long time. Topics like this hit a soft spot in my heart because I believe so strongly in equality and don't see it being out of reach. I am 23 years old and look forward to spending my life trying to eliminate the monetary system and implementing a resource based system. | ||
|
DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
t couldn't be any more then a few degrees outside. I'm wearing warm clothes, I have a roof over my head. I have food in my stomach and reserves in the fridge. All this and I'm not happy. I find myself confused, caught in the web of my own manifesting revelations. An individual with his own established self beliefs who is capable of many things, but find my own fundamental beliefs challenged by a hypocritical society that strips me of my power. Left with not a choice, but a direction. A society that censors our mind with fraudulant beliefs setting our path for a vicious cycle of primal error in perception, directing us towards forever more suffering and death. The continuous cycle of unnecessary death are self-evident proof that mankind has been led astray. We have been led blindly by an illusion. A mistaken inherent understanding that we already have a profound knowledge of our belonging. This self-perpetuating awareness that manifests a fiery spark like that of Tesla's lightbulb is a pre-fabricated model which is reflected from the self. A superficial construct that brings chaos and order. We live in a world of hatred, bigotry, class elitism, ego, narcissim, entitlements to wealth, privilege and power. A world where political heads lie, slander and take us into a repute of political despotism. A world that has never been nastier, meaner, greedier, more arrogant and conceited. A society that swallows partisan corporate media and a God that co-exhists in a seperate existence. That is the conceptual model we have adapted as reality. Until now, no person has gone through the vigorous intensity of feeling that will unite our civilisation as a singlular benefactor. That's what hurts my soul more then anything, is knowing the system is broken and people just continue on, submitting... to be so naive to ignore it because they have already let go. It's nothing to complex, nothing particularly mind blowing. It's a soothing science that few understand, but even the smart and interesting people have begun to be nothing but pervasive. That it's structure lay so deeply embedded in the roots it trickles through the crevasses rotting the very core only seeding a catalyst for the same homogeneous paradox. This is my first post on TL but I have been an avid reader for a long time. Topics like this hit a soft spot in my heart because I believe so strongly in equality and don't see it being out of reach. I am 23 years old and look forward to spending my life trying to eliminate the monetary system and implementing a resource based system. Well written deep and dark. I'm glad you joined i also recognize your nick. | ||
|
JesusHadAegis
Australia11 Posts
| ||
|
AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
On June 03 2012 13:12 JesusHadAegis wrote: It couldn't be any more then a few degrees outside. I'm wearing warm clothes, I have a roof over my head. I have food in my stomach and reserves in the fridge. All this and I'm not happy. I find myself confused, caught in the web of my own manifesting revelations. An individual with his own established self beliefs who is capable of many things, but find my own fundamental beliefs challenged by a hypocritical society that strips me of my power. Left with not a choice, but a direction. A society that censors our mind with fraudulant beliefs setting our path for a vicious cycle of primal error in perception, directing us towards forever more suffering and death. The continuous cycle of unnecessary death are self-evident proof that mankind has been led astray. We have been led blindly by an illusion. A mistaken inherent understanding that we already have a profound knowledge of our belonging. This self-perpetuating awareness that manifests a fiery spark like that of Tesla's lightbulb is a pre-fabricated model which is reflected from the self. A superficial construct that brings chaos and order. We live in a world of hatred, bigotry, class elitism, ego, narcissim, entitlements to wealth, privilege and power. A world where political heads lie, slander and take us into a repute of political despotism. A world that has never been nastier, meaner, greedier, more arrogant and conceited. A society that swallows partisan corporate media and a God that co-exhists in a seperate existence. That is the conceptual model we have adapted as reality. Until now, no person has gone through the vigorous intensity of feeling that will unite our civilisation as a singlular benefactor. That's what hurts my soul more then anything, is knowing the system is broken and people just continue on, submitting... to be so naive to ignore it because they have already let go. It's nothing to complex, nothing particularly mind blowing. It's a soothing science that few understand, but even the smart and interesting people have begun to be nothing but pervasive. That it's structure lay so deeply embedded in the roots it trickles through the crevasses rotting the very core only seeding a catalyst for the same homogeneous paradox. This is my first post on TL but I have been an avid reader for a long time. Topics like this hit a soft spot in my heart because I believe so strongly in equality and don't see it being out of reach. I am 23 years old and look forward to spending my life trying to eliminate the monetary system and implementing a resource based system. To bad you won't spend your life trying to educate yourself and making an informed analysis of both systems. | ||
|
soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
On April 20 2012 22:36 KvltMan wrote: I fucking hate TvP. Most imbalanced shit ever. On a serious note, I recommend the OP to read this guy's blog. He is very critical to the ideologies and thoughts presented by Jaques Fresco and those of the Zeitgeist movement. http://muertos.blog.com/2010/10/23/seeing-like-a-state-why-zeitgeists-world-changing-visions-are-a-recipe-for-disaster/ Ya, my initial reaction was "Shouldn't this be in SC2 General, not just General?" Then I reread the thread name... | ||
|
AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
Also; Jane Jacobs her work on cities is excellent. | ||
|
JesusHadAegis
Australia11 Posts
To bad you won't spend your life trying to educate yourself and making an informed analysis of both systems. I'm not sure what compelled you to have said that AdrianHealey, I think you are quick to jump the gun. I like to think that you are ill-informed on the education I have foregone. Although I am still a baby chicken compared to some of the amazing scientists out there. I hope to be taken under the wing by one of the great modern prometheus of our time and do great things. May it be eliminating plastic from our ocean with a bio-degradable chemical that does not harm or hinder our environment. Or finding a way to deteriorate CFC's from the atmosphere. You can keep trying to solve your problems by electing "this political party" or "that political party" while your money pays scientists to design weapons and harmful gases to 'preserve and protect a better life for our society'. I rather spend my time as a scientist researching, educating, designing and creating the future. Could you give me the details on this book please? "The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia" ? I will order now if you hold it in high regards! | ||
|
HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On June 03 2012 21:37 JesusHadAegis wrote: I'm not sure what compelled you to have said that AdrianHealey, I think you are quick to jump the gun. I like to think that you are ill-informed on the education I have foregone. Although I am still a baby chicken compared to some of the amazing scientists out there. I hope to be taken under the wing by one of the great modern prometheus of our time and do great things. May it be eliminating plastic from our ocean with a bio-degradable chemical that does not harm or hinder our environment. Or finding a way to deteriorate CFC's from the atmosphere. You can keep trying to solve your problems by electing "this political party" or "that political party" while your money pays scientists to design weapons and harmful gases to 'preserve and protect a better life for our society'. I rather spend my time as a scientist researching, educating, designing and creating the future. Could you give me the details on this book please? "The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia" ? I will order now if you hold it in high regards! Did you even read this thread? I think it's great that you have an idealistic vision. But advancing a system which at its core doesn't work (for multiple reasons) just seems silly. By the way, wishing away politics doesn't actually remove politics, you realize that right? You could get in to politics and further your viewpoint on equality, technology, or whatever, and if people agree with you they'll vote for you. You wouldn't be one of these foul politicians you speak of. The problem would then be to get people to agree with you, but that's really the same problem you have today, isn't it? | ||
|
JesusHadAegis
Australia11 Posts
My aim in life is to promote the necessity of orderly rational change and to use the talents of the gifted in facilitating this effort so that all the "dubious" battles in this world might one day end, leaving way to a more constructive effort towards change. I'm not and have never planned on being a politician because I am not trying to push a political agenda. I have no interest in running for cabinet as I see no amount of political deliberation being able to forward the cause of rational change because politics is irrational. fact. Like others I pose a lot of questions. All the time. Questions about life, questions about love, questions about the world. I can't give you the answers. We have not found them yet. We have to start asking ourself the right questions. The only right way to find what you need is to ask the right questions. Before that you may ask a lot of wrong questions. That's life, trial and error. My problem is not getting people to agree with me, but opening people's eyes to see for themselves. I try to promote my own understanding, shaking society out of this sick perception of complacency. Ridiculing the devastating effects of man's inhumanity to man. I don't do it for myself, or anyone else in particular. It's much more universal then that. PS. Could you list the things you thought I may have missed so I can address them with a greater clarity. | ||
|
HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On June 04 2012 00:03 JesusHadAegis wrote: Yeah, I read this entire thread HellRoxYa! My aim in life is to promote the necessity of orderly rational change and to use the talents of the gifted in facilitating this effort so that all the "dubious" battles in this world might one day end, leaving way to a more constructive effort towards change. I'm not and have never planned on being a politician because I am not trying to push a political agenda. I have no interest in running for cabinet as I see no amount of political deliberation being able to forward the cause of rational change because politics is irrational. fact. Like others I pose a lot of questions. All the time. Questions about life, questions about love, questions about the world. I can't give you the answers. We have not found them yet. We have to start asking ourself the right questions. The only right way to find what you need is to ask the right questions. Before that you may ask a lot of wrong questions. That's life, trial and error. My problem is not getting people to agree with me, but opening people's eyes to see for themselves. I try to promote my own understanding, shaking society out of this sick perception of complacency. Ridiculing the devastating effects of man's inhumanity to man. I don't do it for myself, or anyone else in particular. It's much more universal then that. PS. Could you list the things you thought I may have missed so I can address them with a greater clarity. Bullshit. I accept that you don't want to touch politics, neither do I, but it is still the medium through which we run things (and it always will be, in one form or another). It's what's gotten us to where we are today. I know you mentioned that we were better of in earlier times, as wrote Rosseau in his time, but that's just not true. It wasn't true in his time, and it isn't true in ours. Even in the political realm, ignoring everything else, the everyday citizen has been given more and more power. Beyond that though I think you're on the right track as far as the overarching idea goes. I, too, would like to see a world better for everyone. I just have no illusions about things such as the RBE. The world isn't perfect and any and all idealism in the world isn't going to change that. That being said, there's obviously a lot of things we can do. To start off changing things, though, you need to understand the way things are and, probably even more importantly, why they are that way. The stage we are at today is one we've arrived at through societal evolution, from one train of thought to another. If you were to look through this thread again it should be painfully obvious that noone's saying society today (in whatever country) is perfect, but they are arguing against the RBE because it would, by what we've seen historically, lead to a catastrophe if forcefully implemented (the only way you could ever implement it today, or perhaps ever). Lastly, I'd just like to point out to you that equality, and what equality is, and the conflict between equality and freedom (to not have your property taken for equalization's sake) is a political question. You can't just say "nu-uh, not my views!". | ||
|
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 03 2012 13:12 JesusHadAegis wrote: This is my first post on TL but I have been an avid reader for a long time. Topics like this hit a soft spot in my heart because I believe so strongly in equality and don't see it being out of reach. I am 23 years old and look forward to spending my life trying to eliminate the monetary system and implementing a resource based system. If you've read the thread, then you already know I've posted some thoughts in here that sparked agreement with many sides. I'm going to have to disagree with the idea of a resource-based system. The problem with resources being pit against resources is just this, "What happens when the resource you can offer is abundant everywhere and nobody needs it?" Suddenly, you find yourself with absolutely nothing of value. What does money really do for us?: The whole purpose the concept of "money" came to be is that humans in even ancient societies figured out that they needed some sort of "universal medium". A "currency" that is accepted by all and is therefore good to exchange for anything you actually DO need. This accelerates and facilitates the passage of goods and services from person to person much more easily than a "barter" or "resource-based" economic system. While the idealistic "Star Trek" society of the Federation might have been able to do away with money altogether, we are not nearly so advanced that we can manage something of that sort. A Brief History of Money: The problem with money isn't that it exists as a concept, but that it is quite literally a commodity that has been cornered and monopolized by a few select hands. I sincerely believe that monetary abolishment is not the answer to our problems in this day and age (maybe a few hundred years from now...), but that monetary reform is the answer to our problems now. It has already happened throughout history. The 1800s brought the "Greenback" system in America. The early American colonies used a "Colonial Script" system that also was proven extremely successful. There are probably examples of other countries in history attempting to gain back power over their own money from the people who have been dubbed, "The Money Changers", but I am not so much an expert in the histories of other countries. The only other examples I know of (not HOW, but THAT they did) were Napoleon of France, Queen Elizabeth I of England as well as some other past leaders of the Netherlands, Russia and Asia. Why are we as a world in massive and somehow exponentially-growing debt?: The problem is the money changers are simply too powerful in the system that now exists. Anyone from Greece who is an expert on WHY their crisis exists will agree with this. The borrowing that happens on a massive scale world-wide is a system of debt that revolves around exchanging debt. The vast majority of Americans are probably too ignorant or uneducated to know that the dollar itself is one of the largest exports America has had throughout recent history. Constant borrowing from the same institutions (IMF, World Bank, Any large banking company) perpetuates the debt. Interest is the weapon by which debt is created on a massive level. Why hasn't anyone done anything about this if its so simple?: So how can you fight them? It would have to be a world-wide effort to dispel the spell of the money changers and purge the world of all debt and interest-burdened agreements. This has not yet occurred. Isolated instances of attempting to distribute and use interest-free currency have indeed happened throughout history. Each and every instance brought with it an nearly-unbelievably (by today's standards) high level of general wealth to the people. However, each and every time the money changers found out about it, they would stage enormous world-crushing events to smite the interest-free currency trade. It is the single greatest weapon we could use against them. It would have to be worldwide instantly because otherwise the money changers will simply do what they have always done. They will bribe and support the growth of other countries who still believe in, follow and borrow from their system until they are military super-powers. Then those super-powers will go on a massive rampage throughout the world until the participants of the free money trade die off or surrender their rights to their own money. What about a gold, silver or platinum-backed currency?: FIAT currency or "money created out of nothing" is perfectly fine and might even be the most preferable solution. Gold or Silver or any sort of "resource-backed" currency can be even more easily cornered as a market since all you would have to do is locate and monopolize the industries surrounding the resource that the new money is backed by. On the other hand, money that is controlled by the people and only the people will most likely only ever be used and created for their own benefit (unless they're unanimously massively suicidal). My own personal conclusion and opinion: Money is necessary at least for a little while longer. I find the problem not with money itself, but rather who in the world is handling, creating and regulating its flow. | ||
|
JesusHadAegis
Australia11 Posts
Like all good ideas trying to address economic advancement, or ethics, fairness, and enlightenment for the human race. As soon as you give it to a bunch of people, they always manage to screw it up. Mainly because power and selfishness play a strong part in those who are in charge, and are unwilling to give up their perks which come at the expense of everyone else. This is what needs to be changed, not just the system, but people. Which one is more dangerous? A capitalistic regime which pushes the drive for competition or a resource based economy that pushes for equality amongst all. Capitalism is so dangerous for our future because it has the appearance of working to create wealth, when in actuality pure capitalist societies can destroy lives through slavery to monolithic corporations, and rape the planet by systematic waste through over-exploitation. It positively encourages the cults of kings, dictatorship, and social disenfranchisement through the impoverishment of those who can never accrue enough capital to exploit others below their social-economic ladder. Pure capitalism is the way the wealthy get wealthier without work. Who makes more money, a man that dedicates his life to educating the younger generation and envisioning them with dream's or the fat cat which makes money because they have money? I'm not suggesting we implement this system through force or through vote. I'm saying we educate the world and it becomes unanimous. Whenever anything new is brought up, people get mad, afraid, scared, because your upsetting the balance. We have a tough job ahead. All of us. If you wish to live in a world without war, poverty, unemployment, hunger, human suffering, you have to communicate with other people. If you sit back and do nothing, nothing will happen, I can assure you nothing will happen. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. | ||
| ||
