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Show Support For the Best Gaming Monitor Possible

Forum Index > Tech Support
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mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3789 Posts
April 06 2012 12:32 GMT
#1
When it comes to gaming monitors we are currently forced to make some very hard choices.


You can go for TN panels and sacrifice image quality for superior responsiveness with panels that can refresh at 120hz and have minimal input lag.

You can go for IPS panels and have inferior gaming responsiveness so you can have better image quality and spend double or even triple what you would pay for TN panel.

[image loading]

What if you could get an IPS panel for half the cost they normelly sell at and have responsiveness that is elevated from weak to good enough and possibly excellent?

That type of monitor existed briefly for 3 months due when discovered by interpid techies looking for the best gaming experience.

We are talking about:

2560x1440 resolution
IPS panel
100Hz stable, possibly can reach 120Hz with slight bugs if you are lucky
Minimal input lag like a TN panel
No-AG Coating



This post explains the nitty gritty details better than I could.

A general FAQ by jpinard
+ Show Spoiler +


This is a long explanation of how this excellent, low-cost display happened and why this particular, (higher Hz model) matters so much for gamers who play FPS, Simulator, RTS, and many MMORG’s :o. This is very wordy, somewhat repetitive in places, but the goal is to outline everything about this crazy computer monitor market. If I happen to have any details wrong please let me know, but this should be educational for anyone who hasn't read a FAQ on each subject. (note: I purposely left MVA references out to keep explanations simpler) Therefore based on the repeated questions I’ve seen it's important that people understand the how & why these displays are cheaper than other high-end displays and why they cannot be super pixel/color perfect like an Apple Cinema Display:

Here we go!

LG makes the vast majority of IPS panels used in LCD/LED monitors. They make a tens of thousands 27" panels (JUST the panel with no connectors or guts) and they are sampled for quality. Those that appear perfect go to Apple, HP, Dell, Hazro, Asus, Viewsonic and several other big companies for their high-end displays. These are rated as A+ panels. Those that are not perfect, but still good, go to a 2nd party monitor maker (usually South Korean) like Yamasaki, PC bank, Achieva, Crossover. They add the connector circuit board, input plugs, speakers, OSD hardware, frame, scalars, and anti-glare just as top tier manufacturers do.

As these Korean manufacturers are not high-end display companies they often forgo the extra crap Dell & Apple would put into their monitors ie. an OSD which is on-screen display functions for changing color, orientation, size, position, etc. NOT having the OSD is very inconvenient for most users, but fantastic for gamers as any extra components attached to the PCB creates extra input lag. For gamers who want the ultimate in responsiveness (on an IPS display), they usually need to find one with the fewest extras. Even adding a single HMDI port to the standard DVI-D port will add some lag. TN panels have better response times regardless of the amenities, but one greatly sacrifices the image quality by going TN not to mention the poor viewing angles. Regarding “extras” the terrible anti-glare coatings you see are not done by LG when the basic panel is made. Once again this is done in the secondary manufacturing step by the people who sell these panels (Dell, Apple, and Asus). Since the South Korean companies who sell the A- graded panels want to keep costs down they do not put anti-glare coatings on the display. This is fantastic as it gives users the choice. For those of us that love glossy, we do nothing with these Korean displays. If you hate glossy, there are plenty of options to add your own anti-glare that will undoubtedly be better than the terrible solution Dell uses on their own IPS monitors.

So besides above, what's the big deal about this particular monitor? Basically for gamers - THIS IS THE HOLY GRAIL of MONITORS. For years we've wanted an IPS display that is the right size, with the best colors, the least amount of ghosting, the best responsiveness, and the least amount of lag, the perfect pixel pitch, and the most possible "stuff" on the screen at once. With the primary two options we’ve had, TN vs. IPS, you could not get all of this on one display... until the Catleap v.2b. So lets make a general question & answer list of the points I just made.
* Why is 27" the best size for a gaming monitor?
For immersion, you want a screen that fills the front of your desk, without you, the user, having to manually look side-to-side to see everything on the screen. 26" and 27" monitors sitting on a desk are the perfect size.
* What's this about ghosting and lag?
For anyone except gamers who play games with motion it's not really an issue. But if you play faster action games, MMORGS, even many RT's it is of critical importance. Only TN displays in the past could truly cut out ghosting, blurring, and screen lag by running at a higher refresh rate and using special overdrive utilities. So IPS has the best picture quality, but the worst gaming experience. Worse if you have someone sitting next to you as you play on a TN panel, everything they see is washed out, and depending on the angle, sometimes nearly illegible. Adding a scalar and OSD (on-screen displays) usually increases lag on both IPS and TN, so the fact these are not available (due to the increase of cost) in the secondary Korean manufacturers is a plus. But it does make color calibration more difficult as you have to do it through your video card. Furthermore, if you use a non-native resolution on these Korean models you must use the scalar from your video card as they're not an option on the monitor itself. That is generally no big deal though. Once again, for gaming it's better the display doesn't have a built-in scalar.
* Why does this panel (IPS) have better colors than the competition?
IPS is better than TN (active matrix displays) for a lot of reasons I won't go into because it doesn’t pertain here. But because of the way the panels are designed and the pixels light IPS has better colors and looks much better in space games due to blacks being deeper.
* What about Screen Resolution and pixel pitch?
Many displays that are 27" are only 1920x1080 - the number of pixels horizontally and vertically. If you look at a monitor that is only 24" in size but displays 1920x1080 it is MUCH sharper than a 27" monitor of the same resolution. Why are people so gaga over the new iPad Retina display? - same thing. Way more pixels on the screen vs. the older iPads makes the display that much sharper. Being IPS and not TN makes the colors and pictures POP from straight on or any angle. A 27" monitor running the 2560x1440 has pixels that are very close together creating a very sharp image with text that is not as microscopic like you’d have on a comparable 24"monitortrying to show 2560x1440 pixels.
* Why do Dell and other tier-1 display producers go nuts on their Anti-glare coatings?
Because they don't want to deal with business’s and other whiny people complaining about glare & lighting issues in the workplace - ie. Laziness and cost reduction. Adding those anti-glare coatings costs more than not, but dealing with more tech calls and returns is much more. So the easy way out is to just put the anti-glare on everything no matter how much it ruins the images. A good company would offer a version with anti-glare coatings and one without - but apparently that's too much effort for most.
* “The most Stuff on-screen”?
That just means running 2560x1440. If you're playing a flight simulator you will have almost twice the view someone else would have. In a flight simulator this means more of your airplane cockpit, more scenery, more peripheral vision, more situational awareness. In an RTS, FPS or MMORG it means you see more on the screen than your competitor. Someone running at 1400x900 is at a massive disadvantage vs. someone running 2560x1440. Imagine putting a box over your head and looking through a cutout only 1' square vs. having a clear unobstructed view. That puts it in perspective.
So you may be asking, why isn't anyone making these “Holy Grail” displays if gamers want them so bad? The answer takes us back to how panels are made and distributed. You have one company, LG, which makes the majority of the world’s panels. The exact distribution of these base displays is something I have not researched but I know there are direct sales, a lottery, an auction, and “junk sales” based on LG’s initial (I’m guessing very quick) quality check as they probably don’t have time to run 50,000 panels for a week at a time. Since making panels is still an imprecise and imperfect process, primary producers pay much more to receive the more limited A+ displays. Secondary companies do not have the funds to compete in this respect and LG may even have production agreements that say no A+ panels can go to non-top tier companies. When Apple, Dell, and HP get these panels they add all the extras you’ve come to expect (whether wanted or not). The most beautiful monitors out there, the Apple Cinema display are not meant for gamers so Apple has no interest in fine-tuning input lag or increasing refresh rates. This is where Yamasaki, PC bank, Achieva, & Crossover come in. They buy the A- panels from LG that Apple, HP, Dell don’t want, slap them in a bezel, add a stand, add a circuit board with connectors and presto - you have cheaper Apple Cinema Display. But… where does the higher refresh rate come in that we mentioned earlier, and is driving this poll and curiosity?


A higher refresh rate makes your mouse movements smoother by updating the screen 100x per second vs. the standard 60x per second. It makes you more accurate, the game "feels" more responsive because technically it is - especially with a higher DPI mouse. Running extremely high DPI mice, on an IPS screen in an FPS has been very frustrating (compared to old tube monitors) because what you feel or should see doesn’t exactly match your mouse movements and results in a feeling of delay... like running a flight simulator at settings way higher than your computer can handle. You must anticipate what will happen vs. reacting to what's going on. You can get used to it, but it's not optimal. Now Yamasaki, the company who made the earlier Catleap did not intend to make an IPS display that can do more than 60 Hz. As far as I can tell, they used a more expensive circuit board than they'd planned on, and some enterprising souls on Overclocking.net decided to see if it could handle more than the default 60 Hz and were stunned that it could. Yamasaki has no idea this panel could do that (or that it would be in demand) so they replaced it with the circuit board they'd intended to reduce costs by a few bucks. As soon as the idea these cheaper, 27" IPS displays had the possibility to do, what is only offered by much more expensive TN displays the overclocking and modding pc gamers latched on trying to find any way to either get a replacement board for the panel or have Yamasaki go back and make more of this variant... hence this thread.


I hope this helps outline why this particular display is so important to gamers and why many hardware & overclocking forums have a disproportionate amount of posts about new IPS displays & 120 HZ TN monitors. We've been waiting... wanting for a display with the best features of both panel technologies for over a decade and for a breif moment a few got their dream monitor. Hopefully, Yamasaki, and if not them, then other manufacturers will take note that is “IS” possible to make an IPS 2560x1440 that does 72Hz-100Hz-120Hz, whatever your video card can put out . This is something many were saying was just a pipedream or totally impossible just a month ago.
(note: even better would be a version with CCFL instead of the backlit LED for those who don’t care about heat, energy consumption, or a super slim design)
Cheers and hope this helped maybe 1 person out there!


The manufacturer didn't realize what they had on their hands and changed the specs recently to save some more money. A few people selling this item realized the potential market of this device and approached the primary forum that started spreading information on this display, who initiated a huge surge in international sales and even a price war where it once sold for $430 and dropped to $380.

They are asking for atleast 1200 people to confirm they are interested in buying this type of monitor.

So far they almost have 600 and I know with TL it could exceed 800.

You would have to register to overclock.net here.
The actual poll is here.


If you wanted to show manufacturers there is a demand for affordable high quality gaming gear you should vote.

If you love having the opportunity to buy specialized quality goods made in South Korea you should vote.

If you choose not to vote that is fine but consider getting the word out to others who may be interested in a product like this to help make our pasttime hobby all the more enjoyable.

Thank you for reading.

[image loading]
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
April 06 2012 12:49 GMT
#2
That just means running 2560x1440. If you're playing a flight simulator you will have almost twice the view someone else would have. In a flight simulator this means more of your airplane cockpit, more scenery, more peripheral vision, more situational awareness. In an RTS, FPS or MMORG it means you see more on the screen than your competitor. Someone running at 1400x900 is at a massive disadvantage vs. someone running 2560x1440. Imagine putting a box over your head and looking through a cutout only 1' square vs. having a clear unobstructed view.


Not only is the analogy wrong, The whole statement is big lie.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
April 06 2012 12:56 GMT
#3
On April 06 2012 21:49 Doko wrote:
Show nested quote +
That just means running 2560x1440. If you're playing a flight simulator you will have almost twice the view someone else would have. In a flight simulator this means more of your airplane cockpit, more scenery, more peripheral vision, more situational awareness. In an RTS, FPS or MMORG it means you see more on the screen than your competitor. Someone running at 1400x900 is at a massive disadvantage vs. someone running 2560x1440. Imagine putting a box over your head and looking through a cutout only 1' square vs. having a clear unobstructed view.


Not only is the analogy wrong, The whole statement is big lie.


Well, if you ignore how games ACTUALLY work, and just count pixels, it's TECHNICALLY true-ish. It's no worse than typical marketing speak. Which puts it at shitty and uninformative, by other standards.

The whole thing is vague, inaccurate hype and a link to beg them to make them and sell them cheap. Really not up to par in general.
storm8ring3r
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany227 Posts
April 06 2012 13:05 GMT
#4
the increased pixel density with the same field of view means in FPS like BF3, aiming down the sight would give you a more detailed idea of where you are aiming. someones head in the distance might go from 6 pixels to 9 pixels tall. It makes perfecting your aim easier in some situations. Also, detecting movement in the periphery becomes more detailed.
follow chobopeon on twitter
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
April 06 2012 13:08 GMT
#5
On April 06 2012 22:05 storm8ring3r wrote:
the increased pixel density with the same field of view means in FPS like BF3, aiming down the sight would give you a more detailed idea of where you are aiming. someones head in the distance might go from 6 pixels to 9 pixels tall. It makes perfecting your aim easier in some situations. Also, detecting movement in the periphery becomes more detailed.


What does this have to do with the bullshit that was said? Like I said, you have to be using marketing hype to make a case for having "almost twice the view". Nobody is arguing that there's value to higher resolutions, to a point. This is just a BAD OP, sourcing a bad article, and trying to redirect traffic to ask for something based on incomplete data.
mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3789 Posts
April 06 2012 13:09 GMT
#6
On April 06 2012 21:56 JingleHell wrote:
The whole thing is vague, inaccurate hype and a link to beg them to make them and sell them cheap. Really not up to par in general.



I only put in minimal information because of TLDR crowd.

If you want something more indepth

http://www.overclock.net/t/1215866/reviewed-400-2560x1440-ips-no-ag-90hz-achieva-shimian-qh270-and-catleap-q270
storm8ring3r
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany227 Posts
April 06 2012 14:13 GMT
#7
sorry to get in the middle of your retarded flamewar
follow chobopeon on twitter
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
April 06 2012 14:41 GMT
#8
I never understood extreme resolutions... all they do is bring my fps down??
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
April 06 2012 14:44 GMT
#9
On April 06 2012 23:41 nttea wrote:
I never understood extreme resolutions... all they do is bring my fps down??


Well, yes, you need more graphics horsepower and video ram to handle higher resolutions at the same settings, as the graphics card is doing more calculations to fill more pixels.

TheToast
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4808 Posts
April 06 2012 14:55 GMT
#10

They are asking for atleast 1200 people to confirm they are interested in buying this type of monitor.


So what, are you trying to sell us shit or what's the deal here?


That type of monitor existed briefly for 3 months due when discovered by interpid techies looking for the best gaming experience.


This sounds like one of those advertisements for "natural" cure all medicine. Was the discovery of this monitor covered up by the other big corporations and the government?

THIS IS THE HOLY GRAIL of MONITORS


Sensationalist much?


Either way, I just don't see the point of this thread. You could have easily posted a link to the overclock.net page in the existing monitor thread; it really just looks like you are trying to hock LG monitors and get people to join overclock.net's forum.

I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-06 17:20:20
April 06 2012 15:50 GMT
#11
It sounds sensationalist but he's not too wrong. There were a set of cheapass barebones 2560x1440 IPS monitors that could push 100hz. That was pretty cool. The guys on Overclockers want to try and get the Koreans to manufacture them again. I expect nothing to come out of this, Overclockers tried to do a similar community group buy movement with the legendary Gentle Typhoon fans only for the whole effort to fail.

If it does pass, there are a few caveats which should be made known to the public:
1) What allowed the Catleap to reach 100hz was the 2B PCB used. Current models use the cheaper 2C PCB.
2) If the only change is the PCB, then you are still dealing with A- class IPS panels. This is pretty much the rejected products that Apple, Dell, HP, NEC, Eizo, etc. don't want.
3) Combine this, along with the fact they are stationed in Korea, as well as the fact that the perfect pixel warranty is a placebo, and you're practically gambling for a issue free monitor. A lot of people have got good results, or just don't know what they're getting, but a fair number of people have also noted severely flawed panels.
4) TN panels aren't that bad anymore. Yeah, vertical viewing angles are still awful so adjust the height. If you want 120hz, Samsung, Asus, and BenQ offer some very good options. 120hz TN panels will still provide a better "gaming" experience than a 100hz IPS monitor due to the overdrive application - its still essentially a 5ms TN panel at the end of the day.

Keep in mind, you can still buy these 2560x1440 resolution screens for $400. They will be locked at 60hz. Just search "Catleap" on eBay.

Even if the current ones can't do 100hz anymore, they're still a great monitor for the price. You do get what you pay for though. These are very cheap 2560x1440 monitors ($350 holy shit) that have zero features or warranty whatsoever. Warranty is one of those funny things where its considered useless until something goes wrong.

So whether or not you want to do this gamble this depends on how OCD you are about monitors.

A side note but if you really wanted the best gaming monitor, you'd just get a Sony FW900 and learn how to calibrate/maintain the thing. Might even be cheaper too.

Edit:
+ Show Spoiler [TN vs IPS bullshit] +

IPS offers no deal image quality benefit, unless we're talking about pixel density. No, comparing an expensive IPS monitor to a bargain bin TN monitor is hardly fair. Calibrate a IPS monitor and a good TN monitor and you won't be able to really tell a difference, heck the TN monitor might look better headon due to generally better contrast, black depth, and no IPS glow.

So why IPS? Well high end IPS monitors offer hardware calibration, wider gamut support (both of these are dead useless for consumers), vertical viewing angles that don't suck (this is actually the main, if not the only, benefit of IPS for consumers), and generally fairly good factory calibration. The difference between IPS and TN has been getting closer and closer for a while: IPS monitors are so much cheaper and generally very responsive these days while good TN panels are getting very good at the whole frame rate control business and can be calibrated to below a DeltaE of 1.
mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3789 Posts
April 06 2012 22:23 GMT
#12
The FW900 is rare and weighs 100lbs
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-07 04:37:02
April 07 2012 03:54 GMT
#13
That's irrelevant. Its still the best monitor for gaming if you're serious about it. Its as about as rare as these magical 100hz monitors and I have complete faith that this group buy thing will fail like it always does.

A 120hz TN monitor will still be better for gaming if that's what you care about - its faster, its got the refresh rate, and very probably has better contrast and black depth. It just doesn't have the resolution, which is honestly a big thing but also not that great if you don't have a system to push 100hz@2560x1440 (shit...you need what? two GTX680s for the most demanding games?).

In a way, I think they're getting their priorities wrong. You'd think they'd ask for properly applied overdrive before asking for 100hz since having a billion hertz isn't much use when your monitor is still slow as shit - according to a few people, the Catleaps have zero or close to zero overdrive so motion performance is not strong. I guess AMD cards can do manual overdrive but who knows how much input lag and other bullshit you're introducing with that.

I dunno, it just seems strange that for a bunch of people wanting to get the best monitor ever, they aren't even going the whole way.
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