[M] (2) Oceanic Mountain

Baumvieh

Germany67 Posts

February 25 2012 03:29 GMT

March 6th: published v.1.0 on NA and SEA by Akinokaze
March 5th: published v.1.0 on EU by Baumvieh
March 3rd: published v.0.8 on SEA and NA by Akinokaze (as 0.9 on NA due to technical issue / next public version will be 1.0)
March 2nd: published v.0.8 on EU by Baumvieh

Oceanic Mountain (1.0)

Made by: Dennis Busch (Baumvieh here and on battle.net EU)
and the teamliquid.net community (in this thread after v.0.5)

Published on: [EU] (by Baumvieh) / [SEA] [NA] (by Akinokaze)

+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +

+ Show Spoiler [Annotated Overview] +

+ Show Spoiler [Replays] +

If you've played the map, I'd love to see your replays. Please send them to: baumvieh@googlemail.com Subject "SC2 Replay" (if you do not wish for the replays to be made public please state so in your mail otherwise I assume you agree to having them added here)

+ Show Spoiler [Low Level Play Warning] +

Akinokaze asked me to include that warning in the spoiler heading and he also would like to note he does not wish for the thread to turn into a discussion about his play. Please respect that.
Oceanic Mountain v0.6 Akinokaze v HgZRyo PvT (test 1)
Oceanic Mountain v.0.8 Akinokaze v chobosniper ZvP (offrace)

In-Game Description:
Starting locations are on high ground with possible early expansions on middle ground. Many different paths lead to the enemy through the open low ground where two rich resource fields and two Xel' Naga towers are located.

Introduction/Inspiration:
Hi, my name is Dennis and I love games (and I'm new to this wonderful board). I've played the campaign of SC2 in 2010 and recently got hooked on multiplayer on battle.net after watching quite a few of the livestreams. I'm currently still struggling to get out of bronze and found the information found on this site and on the wiki very helpful so far.

My goal for this map is(was) to make one that is both aesthetically pleasing to the eye and well balanced to allow for a vast variety of early/mid/late game strategies (as observed by me watching pro players(live streams) on other maps) for all races. Hopefully with your feedback and maybe even replays of you playing it, I can make this a solid map for some interesting 1V1 matches.

Pictures (Aesthetics):
+ Show Spoiler +

Data (Aesthetics):

Texture Set: Xil
Cliff Type: Xil Organic
Lighting: Custom
Fog: No
Clouds: White
Water: modified Xil water
Number of Doodads: 624

Pictures (Gameplay):
+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer] +

+ Show Spoiler [Angled Overview] +

+ Show Spoiler [Grid/Pathing Overview] +

Data (Gameplay):

Playable Bounds: 142x142

Number of Starting Positions: 2

Number of Bases: 12 in total, 2 of them witch rich resources

Number of XWT's: 2, see annotated overview

Number of Rocks: 4, 2 rich resource blockers and 2 defenders optional army path blockers

Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): to be measured

Nat Choke <-> Nat Choke Distance(s): to be measured

Mineral/Gas Counts: 8 standard mineral patches plus two standard geysers per base / 2 rich mineral fields a 8 patches with one rich geyser and one normal geyser

Number of Resources / (Map Width * Map Height): 204000 / 142^2 = 10.12

Changed Data: Lighting

Further Balance Comments / todo:

play a lot of games on the map, watch replays, evaluate, adjust

Change Log:
+ Show Spoiler +

v.1.0

fixed aesthetics/cliffs near fourth base ramps
thinned out and untangled clumped doodads
cleaned up and improved textures under 'low' settings
modified height-map for ocean floor
readded overlord pedestal near 7 and 1 o'clock bases
changed lighting to make it look more like blazing hot sunlight
added more clouds

v.0.8

widened gap between main and third more to prevent early warp-in/blink into main
added custom lighting
added more decorative cliffs and doodads
increased map bounds from 140 squared to 142 squared

v.0.7

widened gap between main and third to prevent early pylon based warp-ins into main
increased map bounds from 132 squared to 140 squared
increased build space in main and natural
fixed pathing (in fact completely repainted the whole pathing (to improve/allow near diagonal cliff pathing))
made unwalkable areas visually obvious (more doodads)
cosmetic texture fixes here and there and a couple of doodad changes
fixed minor asymmetries
rearranged minerals in all bases to improve pathing for bigger units
added two small lakes near the gold bases
removed destructible rocks from gold bases
added line of sight blocked dropzone in main (attached to reaper/colossus entrance)

v.0.6

non-ramp choke in main removed
blocked main backdoor removed
main space slightly increased
positions of natural/third changed (one is now on very high ground like the main)
removed center Xel'Naga Tower
slightly changed other Xel'Naga Tower positioning (both on high ground now)
curved flank change path is now blocked initially (near the closest expansion to the main, to favor defender scouting and defender army proximity to incoming attack)
some ramps widened, some ramps narrowed, some removed
curved middle ground path which separated the low ground removed
low ground is more open now offering more movement paths for bigger armies and easier flanking possibilities
changed gold base and gold base block rock positioning
removed line of sight blocker around Xel'Naga Towers
removed line of sight blocker inside tower vision range
slightly increased space in far corner bases (still planning for more changes with those bases to make them more useful/desirable to have)
mineral field and geyser positions adjusted in some bases
removed asymmetrical stray doodad (took quite some time to find that one, heh :D)
changed water level
lots of cosmetic changes (on textures/doodads and on decorative cliffs)
natural+resources+main ramp changed to improve protoss walling possibilites
corner bases updated to allow engaging aggressor from two flanks
fixed reaper pathing problems on 2x2 cliff spires

v.0.5

initial version for this thread
fixed mineral patch/geyser positioning in all bases for resource to base distances to match those in blizzard melee maps

Animated Change Log:
+ Show Spoiler +

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

February 25 2012 04:04 GMT

Getting to your opponent's base will be very difficult because there are no easy ways to get through the middle.
Also, the back door to the main significantly reduces the rush distance.

Timetwister22

United States538 Posts

February 25 2012 04:13 GMT

This map is way, way too chokey. Zerg won't stand a chance on this map. Aside that however, here are some other issues that I have with the map.
-Third is way too close to the natural.
-The natural isn't FFE friendly.
-It has a backdoor into the main.
-It has gold bases.

Honestly though, it's really hard to find issues with the layout and provide additional constructive feedback when the entire map is super chokey like this. There are only 2 somewhat open areas aside the mains. That's probably the biggest issue here. Open it up, then the base layout and flow will start to shine.

ArcticRaven

France1406 Posts

February 25 2012 04:15 GMT

That your first map ? Looks pretty nice to me o_______o.

On gameplay, i think that you might want to remove the golds blocked by rocks in the middle of the map, because it's everything people hate about terran imbalance. Like, imagine 6 tanks and a PF there. That, and gold bases are useless for toss anyway, and zerg can't take it while it's useful because of the rocks. Other than that, you should open up every pathway, because everything feels very cramped.

Pucca

Taiwan1280 Posts

February 25 2012 05:50 GMT

You could try opening up the center of the map a litte better. Maybe instead of the high ground level it and make the golds against a cliff leaving the ground a wide plain? But that may heavily favor the zerg at the point maybe?

Hope this helps brosky

Sea_Food

Finland1612 Posts

February 25 2012 06:13 GMT

The middle swirly path gives this map a cloud kingdom feel, except that you compressed more stuff into a smaller map.

Also regarding your backdoor, you might want to take a look at this
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.

Maps with this are basicly unplayable. (27)

44%

Okay, but in special circumstances. (14)

23%

A bad feature that makes the map worse by default. (9)

15%

A compleatly fine map feature. (8)

13%

Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other (3)

5%

61 total votes

Your vote: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.

(Vote): A compleatly fine map feature.
(Vote): Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other
(Vote): Okay, but in special circumstances.
(Vote): A bad feature that makes the map worse by default.
(Vote): Maps with this are basicly unplayable.

iTzSnypah

United States1738 Posts

February 25 2012 06:35 GMT

I think this map focus's TOO much on late game power positions. IF you control the S (which is completely reasonable) you by default get rid of all but 2 ground attack paths while having control over a 5base cluster. The 2 remaining ground attack paths are on the very edges of the map which isn't the best of ideas. The choke from the natural to 4th is too narrow. I would make it wider and put in destructible rocks that cover half the path. Another thing, the map doesn't feel like there is enough space to put enough buildings without heavily impeding army movement from base to base.

Also the expansions in the corners don't flow and aren't necessary. From what the map looks like, you made the map, then realized you had the corners open and just decided to put an expo there. I would just remove it and cut the map at the LOS blockers.

Akinokaze

Australia326 Posts

February 25 2012 07:50 GMT

In order for the backdoor to work I think you need to reduce the distance that the defender has to cover; at the moment it's only marginally smaller then the distance that the attacker does. I would perhaps move the small choke you created within the main closer towards your natural. I would also perhaps reduce the width of the ramp so that it can be held with no more then two forcefields.

Edit: I agree with the above poster about the two expos in the corner, they just look like after thoughts atm. While I wouldn't remove it completely, I'd look into stream lining it more with the rest of the map and making it a more viable fourth base option.

Kukaracha

France1954 Posts

February 25 2012 08:56 GMT

The map looks pretty cool, I actually like the path in the middle and the complex composition (don't complain about those gold expansions, think about Shattered temple golds...), but the backdoor kills it.

- Remember Blistering Sands (aka the cheese fest everyone downvoted?)
- More cheese has been discovered since!
- How do you stop a 4Gate? A Roach/ling Allin?

Really, for now I see it as one of those maps you either downvote or cheese on. Which makes the well-thought composition of the rest pretty irrelevant, since no one will go any further than 2 bases.
I see this as a 70% W/R for Toss, 20% for Zerg, 10% for Terran.

Penke

Sweden346 Posts

February 25 2012 09:28 GMT

#10

On February 25 2012 13:13 Timetwister22 wrote:
This map is way, way too chokey. Zerg won't stand a chance on this map. Aside that however, here are some other issues that I have with the map.
-Third is way too close to the natural.
-The natural isn't FFE friendly.
-It has a backdoor into the main.
-It has gold bases.

Honestly though, it's really hard to find issues with the layout and provide additional constructive feedback when the entire map is super chokey like this. There are only 2 somewhat open areas aside the mains. That's probably the biggest issue here. Open it up, then the base layout and flow will start to shine.

I don't see a problem with the gold bases. They seem really hard to hold and are more balanced race-wise after the mule change. Everything else I agree with though.

Akinokaze

Australia326 Posts

February 25 2012 09:28 GMT

#11

The reason why Blistering Sands was bad was cause the defender had to cover literally twice the distance that the attacker had to.

Kukaracha

France1954 Posts

February 25 2012 09:49 GMT

#12

On February 25 2012 18:28 midnight.tokyo wrote:
The reason why Blistering Sands was bad was cause the defender had to cover literally twice the distance that the attacker had to.

Look :

You can even see that there is the same distance between the starting location, the ramp and the backdoor rocks (while here, the rocks are much further away). Map distance is irrelevant, Proxy Pylons make everything possible.

Akinokaze

Australia326 Posts

February 25 2012 11:50 GMT

#13

The starting location is also irrelevant and I was of course referring to the distance between the backdoor and the natural choke (i.e a normal game where people expand, pvp being the current exception).

Edit: Even if it was a 1base vs 1base situation on Blistering, the distance required by both the defender and attacker to cover from ramp to backdoor is about equal. If the attacker had to travel twice the distance of the defender between ramp and backdoor, who do you think has the advantage?

zasta

United Kingdom99 Posts

February 25 2012 12:17 GMT

#14

Hey there Dennis!

First of all, congratulations on building such a good looking map. Certainly better than any of my efforts.

I feel however that your lack of game experience has led to you trying to be quite ambitious. That's good, but there're some things that will make games very difficult on this map.

As people have said, backdoor rocks into the main are a nightmare.

Here's my (humble!) ideas:

[image loading]

http://i.imgur.com/ZDrX7.jpg

The idea would be to make the natural more natural to take. Back doors don't work well but it would open up a harass path or as a route to take your fourth. I like all the counter attack paths btw!

Good work and keep at it.

Kukaracha

France1954 Posts

February 25 2012 12:52 GMT

#15

On February 25 2012 20:50 midnight.tokyo wrote:
The starting location is also irrelevant and I was of course referring to the distance between the backdoor and the natural choke (i.e a normal game where people expand, pvp being the current exception).

Edit: Even if it was a 1base vs 1base situation on Blistering, the distance required by both the defender and attacker to cover from ramp to backdoor is about equal. If the attacker had to travel twice the distance of the defender between ramp and backdoor, who do you think has the advantage?

Supposing :

- the defender know where the attacker is
- you're Protoss

There's no way a Zerg or a Terran can hold a 4Gate or a 3Gate Robo/3Gate Stargate with backdoors. You need bunkers, you need to know when and where to defend. You can't make 4 bunkers and leave 8 SCVs at each spot.
Out of curiosity, do you play toss?

Akinokaze

Australia326 Posts

February 25 2012 15:26 GMT

#16

I play random, but I don't see why playing Protoss would affect what I say, I'm not the one who's going to be playing this (no offense intended to the OP of course). I agree that Protoss 1 base all-ins are difficult as it is to hold without having to deal with backdoors. But what if the rocks had 10k HP? What if mineral blocks were in fact used instead of rocks? The problem I see with backdoors is that they do not buy enough time for the defender, not that they exist at all as you seem are suggesting.

Kukaracha

France1954 Posts

February 25 2012 15:46 GMT

#17

Right, so backdoor rocks as they exist are a problem.

It's not a matter of distance the defender has to cover, because you can flank him anyway and force twice as many static defenses, or break the rocks AND push the ramp at the same time. It's not a matter of HP neither, unless you give the rocks a ridiculous amount, and then it becomes useless because unbreakable until you have two 100/100 armies.

Baumvieh

Germany67 Posts

February 26 2012 06:52 GMT

#18

Thanks a lot for all the feedback everyone.

Sorry for not responding in detail individually at the moment but I've read all of your posts carefully and multiple times (still might have forgotten something important, if so, please don't hesitate to point me to it again) and I've worked all night on v.0.6a taking care of all the major problems that have been raised (see the spoiler at the top of the edited first post in this thread (new version was not published on battle.net yet)).

I'll respond in more detail later after getting some sleep.

Akinokaze

Australia326 Posts

February 26 2012 08:49 GMT

#19

Wow, some pretty drastic changes there. The removal of the S definitely opens up the map although I'm a little sad that such a prominent feature had to be removed.

While I like most of the changes a few new issues seem to have arisen:

- Natural is now near impossible for Protoss to take off anything short of a 3gate expand. Try and rearrange the main ramp or natural somehow so that a wall between the natural and ramp can be made with no more then three buildings.

- The narrow choke leading into the natural you've walled with rocks provides no incentive at all for the attacker to take down (or perhaps this was your intention?). Any push on the third base would rather go straight up the ramp while an attack on the natural would either approach from the natural ramp of simply go around via the third. An attacking army that commits to destroying the rocks could be trapped in the choke and almost literally be between a rock and a hard place.

- With the backdoor gone, the 2 o'clock and 7 o'clock expos have become viable fourths for Zerg (3 and 6 o'clock still look like the superior choice for Protoss and Terran). But now imagine a Tank or Colossi push coming along and sieging up on the other side of that gap. Zerg has no effective way of attacking into this position and the Tanks/Colossi can shell away at the expo. I propose that you increase the width of the gap so this isn't possible or remove it completely to create a more open field.

Baumvieh

Germany67 Posts

February 26 2012 13:09 GMT

#20

+ Show Spoiler [reply to comments on v.0.5] +

On February 25 2012 13:04 TehTemplar wrote:
Getting to your opponent's base will be very difficult because there are no easy ways to get through the middle.
Also, the back door to the main significantly reduces the rush distance.

The middle has been opened up greatly now and the main backdoor was removed alongside with a few other tweaks to the main itself.

Fixed two of those issues, still need to improve on FFE friendlyness. Will be keeping the gold bases but changed them along with the rest of the now vast low ground area.

On February 25 2012 13:15 ArcticRaven wrote:
That your first map ? Looks pretty nice to me o_______o.

Thanks. First Starcraft2 map yes but I have some experience from playing around with map editors (too many to mention but including the one for Warcraft III) in the past. Unfortunately I seem to have lost those old maps (need to check some of my ancient backup CDs to see if I can still find any). I also have some experience in making things look good due to my pixelling and drawing hobbies.

On February 25 2012 14:50 BWalma wrote:
Maybe instead of the high ground level it and make the golds against a cliff leaving the ground a wide plain? But that may heavily favor the zerg at the point maybe?

Great idea (already done now). About that favoring the Zerg a lot: I guess that would only be the case if in addition to the openness a few more low ground bases would be added (I think I won't do that because I don't want to give Zerg an unfair advantage).

On February 25 2012 15:13 Sea_Food wrote:
The middle swirly path gives this map a cloud kingdom feel, except that you compressed more stuff into a smaller map.
Also regarding your backdoor, you might want to take a look at this
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.

Maps with this are basicly unplayable. (27)

44%

Okay, but in special circumstances. (14)

23%

A bad feature that makes the map worse by default. (9)

15%

A compleatly fine map feature. (8)

13%

Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other (3)

5%

61 total votes

Your vote: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.

Now that you mention it, that path did indeed seem a lot similar to Cloud Kingdom. Not a bad thing per se but since in this case it was responsible for a major point of critique (overall chockeyness) it had to go. Also that poll added to convincing me to remove the main backdoor.

On February 25 2012 15:35 iTzSnypah wrote:
The choke from the natural to 4th is too narrow. I would make it wider and put in destructible rocks that cover half the path. Another thing, the map doesn't feel like there is enough space to put enough buildings without heavily impeding army movement from base to base.

There is a lot more space to put buildings now while still having wide paths for moving armies around. I put the destructible rocks close on the defenders side in a way for the def to easily keep an eye on them. They can in theory be a backdoor into the natural but only if the defender is sleeping. Later in the game, the defender may choose to blast those rocks away to gain an additional path for his army to move around that area between the natural and the third (which might be mostly filled with building by then).
Long story short, that blocked path should work mostly in favor of the defender and be unattractive to the attacker.

On February 25 2012 16:50 midnight.tokyo wrote:
I agree with the above poster about the two expos in the corner, they just look like after thoughts atm. While I wouldn't remove it completely, I'd look into stream lining it more with the rest of the map and making it a more viable fourth base option.

Working on those bases.

On February 25 2012 17:56 Kukaracha wrote:
The map looks pretty cool, I actually like the path in the middle and the complex composition (don't complain about those gold expansions, think about Shattered temple golds...), but the backdoor kills it.

Thanks. I liked that path too but it had to go for playability/balance reasons. I play Terran, so I guess I designed that path mostly with Terran strategies in mind which would have worked nicely on it but would not have given other races too many options to use it.

On February 25 2012 18:28 Penke wrote:
I don't see a problem with the gold bases. They seem really hard to hold and are more balanced race-wise after the mule change. Everything else I agree with though.

Glad I'm not the only one who likes the gold bases. They are probably even harder to hold now that the high ground around them is gone.

On February 25 2012 21:17 zasta wrote:
First of all, congratulations on building such a good looking map ...
Here's my (humble!) ideas...

Thank you. Good ideas, I added some variation to them and moved the third base up hill and opened just a small ledge on the side for cliff walking/reaper jumping for those who can't live without their beloved reaper harassment(e.g. me!).

+ Show Spoiler [reply to comments on v.0.6a] +

On February 26 2012 17:49 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Wow, some pretty drastic changes there. The removal of the S definitely opens up the map although I'm a little sad that such a prominent feature had to be removed.

While I like most of the changes a few new issues seem to have arisen...

- ...

- The narrow choke leading into the natural you've walled with rocks provides no incentive at all for the attacker to take down (or perhaps this was your intention?). ...

- ...

Yup, removing the S made my heart bleed a little as well but it's for the better and if a feature does not work for the game-flow it has to go no matter how cool(heh, for Terran at least) it seems at first...

Yes that choke, those rocks and that whole path are designed to aid mainly the defender (see above in the reply to 0.5 issues). I'm sure though that someone will come up with a clever way to may it work as a viable point for attack though even if just for distraction and mind games.

I'll continue to work on the other issues now.

Thanks again for the feedback everyone, keep it coming!

Also, is there an easy way of publishing this map to other regions without having to buy extra licenses?

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