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[M] (2) Oceanic Mountain - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
February 29 2012 06:38 GMT
#41
Apologies for the double post but the map has now been uploaded to SEA and NA by Akinokaze under the name 'Oceanic Mountain'.
In the Emperor we trust
Baumvieh
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany67 Posts
February 29 2012 09:30 GMT
#42
On February 28 2012 14:27 StaY.qL wrote:I played some games tonight on it.. 1 with Terran and 2 with Toss. good wall-off options, after work i'll try it with zerg.
But the gold is nearly untakekable.. duno if it's even necessary 'cause there are 5 bases for both... and maps without gold being higher in de­mand than maps with gold expansion... at least in the higher leagues/pro scene
But the first impression of the Map is really good
Thank you for playing. I would love to see the replays for evaluation (and perhaps for adding some replays to the main post of this thread if that's ok with you).

I played a couple of AI v AI and me v AI games on the map:
The AI often loses to the other AI because they don't seem to scout efficiently(often they don't scout at all), missing each other armies while taking different paths to the other side (AI seems to like silly all-ins without leaving any protection whatsoever behind at their own base).

I lost most AI games(on very hard) due to not expanding quickly enough or due to having an insufficiently small army.

On February 29 2012 15:38 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Apologies for the double post but the map has now been uploaded to SEA and NA by Akinokaze under the name 'Oceanic Mountain'.
No need to apologize! (unless mods think otherwise, heh). I updated the main post with the new info. Thanks again.

Now to the issues that need fixing for 0.7, just summing them up here from what has been said:
  • make more room in the natural to prevent accidental building over only possible nexus position
  • change gap between main and third to disallow pylon based warp in in PvP
  • fix reaper path-finding between main and third (they currently don't seem to find the outer ledge to go around those trees in the small gap and instead they keep walking around randomly in front of the gap even though the whole gap is marked unpathable)
  • fix a couple of minor asymmetries (one of which affects cliff walking shortest path between bases)


I think I also want to change something about the middle of the map again.

More precisely, I'm thinking of adding a lake or a small cliff wall to seperate the gold bases, so they would become a bit easier to take and defend(they'd still be very exposed to the north/south).

Maybe I even make it so that the middle does not completely seperate them but so it will have a really narrow path there to disallow a ball of death army from just quickly strolling over to take out the gold base on the side.
"We merely create the pallete to which players paint the scene on. But our pallete influences the way in which the brushes are stroked." -SigmaFiE
SeinGalton
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
South Africa387 Posts
February 29 2012 09:49 GMT
#43
Hello.

I really like what you're doing with this map, your disciplined and iterative approach is really paying dividends. The map seems, as far as I can tell, to do a decent job of enabling a wide range of styles: I see both turtle styles and highly aggressive, counter attacking styles being both viable and fun.

I'm concerned about the gold bases a little in that they might enable turtle styles too much: they're placed in locations you'd want your army to be in any case, and I don't see a Zerg or a Protoss busting down the rocks early on. So it seems they'd only really be beneficial to Terran and some Protoss Death ball styles vs Zerg in the late game. But this is purely speculation. I'm going to look for it when I get home and play a couple of games on it.

I like it, keep it up!
They're coming to get you, Barbara.
Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 11:20:36
February 29 2012 10:31 GMT
#44
On February 29 2012 18:30 Baumvieh wrote:
I played a couple of AI v AI and me v AI games on the map:
The AI often loses to the other AI because they don't seem to scout efficiently(often they don't scout at all), missing each other armies while taking different paths to the other side (AI seems to like silly all-ins without leaving any protection whatsoever behind at their own base).

I lost most AI games(on very hard) due to not expanding quickly enough or due to having an insufficiently small army.


Not sure about the other difficulties, but Insane AI uses map hacks (and also resource hacks, they mine normal resources at the rate of rich ones).

On February 29 2012 18:30 Baumvieh wrote:
Now to the issues that need fixing for 0.7, just summing them up here from what has been said:
  • make more room in the natural to prevent accidental building over only possible nexus position
  • change gap between main and third to disallow pylon based warp in in PvP
  • fix reaper path-finding between main and third (they currently don't seem to find the outer ledge to go around those trees in the small gap and instead they keep walking around randomly in front of the gap even though the whole gap is marked unpathable)
  • fix a couple of minor asymmetries (one of which affects cliff walking shortest path between bases)


I think I also want to change something about the middle of the map again.

More precisely, I'm thinking of adding a lake or a small cliff wall to seperate the gold bases, so they would become a bit easier to take and defend(they'd still be very exposed to the north/south).

Maybe I even make it so that the middle does not completely seperate them but so it will have a really narrow path there to disallow a ball of death army from just quickly strolling over to take out the gold base on the side.


I think removing the rocks from the gold might be enough to make them viable. The high ground behind it makes it incredibly easy to harass, but at the same time committing to an attack will expose an opening to the natural fourth. Gold bases shouldn't be so risk free and choking the middle would probably create a bigger problem then the one you're solving.

A few things I've found so far:

Places that appear pathable but are actually not
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]


Places that reapers can end up in
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Places that large units cannot pass (Archons/Seige Tanks)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
(Occurs when the depot is raised, note that the raised depot is in the same spot you'd put a pylon for Protoss)

[image loading]

[image loading]


Other random bits
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
(Seemingly random hold in the ground)

[image loading]
(Very little air space behind natural)
In the Emperor we trust
Baumvieh
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany67 Posts
February 29 2012 16:26 GMT
#45
Thanks a lot for taking the time to report all those issues Mr. Tokyo. I fixed most of them and all the minor asymmetries. Still need to fix warp-in to main problem and natural roominess.

I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I just leave this image here for now instead of writing a wall of text.

+ Show Spoiler [wip 0.7 image (click image to open hug…] +

[image loading]


"We merely create the pallete to which players paint the scene on. But our pallete influences the way in which the brushes are stroked." -SigmaFiE
Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 16:44:11
February 29 2012 16:38 GMT
#46
Haha no problem, I've applied for a name change to Akinokaze actually so I might not be under this name for much longer With the exception of the two things you mention I don't think there any more glaring issues that need to be addressed.

Edit: Can't quite tell on the overview, but did you replace some of the Overlord Pedestals with doodads or just put them on top? (yes, they actually do serve a purpose in case you weren't aware )
In the Emperor we trust
Baumvieh
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany67 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 03:44:08
March 01 2012 03:31 GMT
#47
v.0.7 published on EU

On February 29 2012 18:49 SeinGalton wrote:
Hello.

I really like what you're doing with this map, your disciplined and iterative approach is really paying dividends. The map seems, as far as I can tell, to do a decent job of enabling a wide range of styles: I see both turtle styles and highly aggressive, counter attacking styles being both viable and fun.

I'm concerned about the gold bases a little in that they might enable turtle styles too much: they're placed in locations you'd want your army to be in any case, and I don't see a Zerg or a Protoss busting down the rocks early on. So it seems they'd only really be beneficial to Terran and some Protoss Death ball styles vs Zerg in the late game. But this is purely speculation. I'm going to look for it when I get home and play a couple of games on it.

I like it, keep it up!
Thanks. Would like to see the replays. Just published version 0.7 though, so... heh.

On March 01 2012 01:38 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Haha no problem, I've applied for a name change to Akinokaze actually so I might not be under this name for much longer With the exception of the two things you mention I don't think there any more glaring issues that need to be addressed.

Edit: Can't quite tell on the overview, but did you replace some of the Overlord Pedestals with doodads or just put them on top? (yes, they actually do serve a purpose in case you weren't aware )
Yes, I added doodads on top, to make it obvious they are not walk-able by ground units. Overlords can still happily fly/rest over them. All the other issues should be resolved now, see updated main post with information on v.0.7 (PM'ed you the new version).
"We merely create the pallete to which players paint the scene on. But our pallete influences the way in which the brushes are stroked." -SigmaFiE
dudecrush
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada418 Posts
March 01 2012 04:15 GMT
#48
This map is really nice!

Small suggestion: move the watchtowers closer to the center of the map so they down cover the exit to the third. It's nice to have some areas that aren't covered by towers.
StaY.qL
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany34 Posts
March 01 2012 05:52 GMT
#49
On February 29 2012 18:30 Baumvieh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2012 14:27 StaY.qL wrote:I played some games tonight on it.. 1 with Terran and 2 with Toss. good wall-off options, after work i'll try it with zerg.
But the gold is nearly untakekable.. duno if it's even necessary 'cause there are 5 bases for both... and maps without gold being higher in de­mand than maps with gold expansion... at least in the higher leagues/pro scene
But the first impression of the Map is really good
Thank you for playing. I would love to see the replays for evaluation (and perhaps for adding some replays to the main post of this thread if that's ok with you).


ofc i'll upload the replays after work.
Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
March 01 2012 09:58 GMT
#50
NA and SEA have been updated to v0.7b (the NA version is incorrectly labeled v0.8 as I had to reupload )

Baumvieh, I've PM'd you with a replay of a game I played earlier. It's on v0.6b though so I'm not sure if you'll be able to view it.
In the Emperor we trust
Baumvieh
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany67 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 20:57:29
March 01 2012 20:11 GMT
#51
Saw the replay, worked nicely and was fun to watch. This also proves that for replays, regions do in fact have access to maps hosted on other regions (it downloaded the old version from the other region before starting the replay). This fact gives me some hope that eventually clients will be able to choose any region (worldwide) before login (like it was in other blizzard games) because the general capability for the client to connect to them seems to be there already.

Haven't started working on 0.8 yet, I'll wait for some replays and play some test games myself before going on to making changes.

Already reported issues in 0.7: can still pylon-warp into main
(thinking of adding LOS blockers along the northeast cliff of the main
edit: just checked and it seems LOS blockers don't help... need to make an even wider gap there)

On March 01 2012 13:15 dudecrush wrote:
This map is really nice!

Small suggestion: move the watchtowers closer to the center of the map so they down cover the exit to the third. It's nice to have some areas that aren't covered by towers.
Thanks. The watchtowers already cover just a small portion of the map as it is and there is a wide open path through the center where large armies can already move freely outside of tower range.
"We merely create the pallete to which players paint the scene on. But our pallete influences the way in which the brushes are stroked." -SigmaFiE
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
March 01 2012 21:10 GMT
#52
I like that the gold bases are seigeable, though based on my principals, gold bases shouldn't exist .
The surface that a player must control on 3 bases is huge, like Cloud Kingdom LE, which I don't really like.
The destructible rocks between the nat and the 3rd are a little wierd in my opinion. Like I said, the surface to be convered is already huge, but adding a 3rd entrance to the threshold is just a little too much.
There's no space to fly mutas/drops/banshees/warp prisms/etc behind the main, since the ground goes all the way to the edge of the map.
Thanks for reading my picky remarks!
StaY.qL
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany34 Posts
March 01 2012 21:11 GMT
#53
update: can't upload it today, I unfortunately didn't get around to start my Computer..
i'll pm you tomorrow maybe i can play some more games on it
TibblesEvilCat
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom766 Posts
March 01 2012 22:22 GMT
#54
can you blink from 3rd base? warpin
Live Fast Die Young :D
Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
March 02 2012 06:27 GMT
#55
On March 02 2012 06:10 sorrowptoss wrote:
I like that the gold bases are seigeable, though based on my principals, gold bases shouldn't exist .
The surface that a player must control on 3 bases is huge, like Cloud Kingdom LE, which I don't really like.
The destructible rocks between the nat and the 3rd are a little wierd in my opinion. Like I said, the surface to be convered is already huge, but adding a 3rd entrance to the threshold is just a little too much.
There's no space to fly mutas/drops/banshees/warp prisms/etc behind the main, since the ground goes all the way to the edge of the map.
Thanks for reading my picky remarks!


midnight.tokyo here (newly renamed), I'll see if I can address your concerns:

- The distance between the natural and third is a bit on the long side I agree, but I believe this will result in constant small contests over the watchtowers as well as removing a bit of the power from deathballs by forcing players to commit forces to defense and/or wall off/static d.
- The small patch leading to the natural is a bit odd yes, it's a legacy from the original concept of the map when it had a Cloud Kingdom style S going horizontally across. Personally I do not see this path being used offensively in most games but rather defensively to execute flanks on attackers coming into the third/fourth.
- The boundaries of the map were increased from 132x132 to 140x140 in the latest version to allow air units to comfortably fly in to the natural/third. I notice that you specifically mentioned the main so I assume the fix did its job, though I agree it's a little bit too cramped once you fly up to the main. I experimented with a few boundary changes and believe an increase of 4 units to just the camera boundary (not the map boundary) will reduce the risk of approaching the main enough that players may attempt to do so.

On March 02 2012 07:22 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
can you blink from 3rd base? warpin


Yes, you can currently warp/blink in to the main without any additional vision. This will hopefully be fixed in the next update.
In the Emperor we trust
Baumvieh
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany67 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-02 16:31:05
March 02 2012 07:20 GMT
#56
On March 02 2012 06:10 sorrowptoss wrote:
Thanks for reading my picky remarks!
You're welcome. :D

On March 02 2012 15:27 Akinokaze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 07:22 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
can you blink from 3rd base? warpin
Yes, you can currently warp/blink in to the main without any additional vision. This will hopefully be fixed in the next update.


Yes, that will be fixed. I spent a couple of hours this morning (woke up at 4am due an urge to continue mapping(I think I even dreamed about mapping)) trying to increment the gap by small amounts, play-testing each time to check blinking/warping in from the third until it was finally impossible (without already having a scout in the main).
The main lost some space due to that but I added a little space near the ramp (does not fully make up for the lost space but I think there's still enough room for everything important in early to mid game... and if you want more secure space: expand!).


+ Show Spoiler [wip shot of 0.8] +
[image loading]



I also increased the playable bounds again from 140 squared to 142 squared to make slightly more air space around the main.

A couple of hours pass by...

edit/append:
Published v0.8 on EU (Akinokaze, PM'ed you the new version) and updated main post.
"We merely create the pallete to which players paint the scene on. But our pallete influences the way in which the brushes are stroked." -SigmaFiE
StaY.qL
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany34 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-05 04:26:43
March 05 2012 04:25 GMT
#57
Did you get my PM baumvieh??
I see no replays in your posts
Baumvieh
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany67 Posts
March 05 2012 05:57 GMT
#58
On March 05 2012 13:25 StaY.qL wrote:
Did you get my PM baumvieh??
I see no replays in your posts
No I didn't get any PM from you, try sending it again. I only got replays from Akinokaze so far. My own replays are too boring to show (against AI).

Tomorrow (actually today, been up all night again), I'll publish 1.0 and then I'll add any replays I have gotten so far to the main post (will of course keep adding replays if I get more). But now, sleep.
"We merely create the pallete to which players paint the scene on. But our pallete influences the way in which the brushes are stroked." -SigmaFiE
StaY.qL
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany34 Posts
March 05 2012 06:05 GMT
#59
On March 05 2012 14:57 Baumvieh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2012 13:25 StaY.qL wrote:
Did you get my PM baumvieh??
I see no replays in your posts
No I didn't get any PM from you, try sending it again. I only got replays from Akinokaze so far. My own replays are too boring to show (against AI).

Tomorrow (actually today, been up all night again), I'll publish 1.0 and then I'll add any replays I have gotten so far to the main post (will of course keep adding replays if I get more). But now, sleep.


Okay... that's weird.. ~~ i'll try it again when i'm back home from work. gn8 workaholic
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2116 Posts
March 05 2012 06:10 GMT
#60
Awww my <3 <3 <3
John 15:13
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