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March 6th: published v.1.0 on NA and SEA by Akinokaze
March 5th: published v.1.0 on EU by Baumvieh
March 3rd: published v.0.8 on SEA and NA by Akinokaze (as 0.9 on NA due to technical issue / next public version will be 1.0)
March 2nd: published v.0.8 on EU by Baumvieh
In-Game Description:
Starting locations are on high ground with possible early expansions on middle ground. Many different paths lead to the enemy through the open low ground where two rich resource fields and two Xel' Naga towers are located.
Introduction/Inspiration:
Hi, my name is Dennis and I love games (and I'm new to this wonderful board). I've played the campaign of SC2 in 2010 and recently got hooked on multiplayer on battle.net after watching quite a few of the livestreams. I'm currently still struggling to get out of bronze and found the information found on this site and on the wiki very helpful so far.
My goal for this map is(was) to make one that is both aesthetically pleasing to the eye and well balanced to allow for a vast variety of early/mid/late game strategies (as observed by me watching pro players(live streams) on other maps) for all races. Hopefully with your feedback and maybe even replays of you playing it, I can make this a solid map for some interesting 1V1 matches.
Pictures (Aesthetics):
+ Show Spoiler +
Data (Aesthetics):
- Texture Set: Xil
- Cliff Type: Xil Organic
- Lighting: Custom
- Fog: No
- Clouds: White
- Water: modified Xil water
- Number of Doodads: 624
Pictures (Gameplay):
+ Show Spoiler [Analyzer] +
+ Show Spoiler [Angled Overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [Grid/Pathing Overview] +
Data (Gameplay):
Playable Bounds: 142x142
Number of Starting Positions: 2
Number of Bases: 12 in total, 2 of them witch rich resources
Number of XWT's: 2, see annotated overview
Number of Rocks: 4, 2 rich resource blockers and 2 defenders optional army path blockers
Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): to be measured
Nat Choke <-> Nat Choke Distance(s): to be measured
Mineral/Gas Counts: 8 standard mineral patches plus two standard geysers per base / 2 rich mineral fields a 8 patches with one rich geyser and one normal geyser
Number of Resources / (Map Width * Map Height): 204000 / 142^2 = 10.12
Changed Data: Lighting
Further Balance Comments / todo:
- play a lot of games on the map, watch replays, evaluate, adjust
Change Log:
+ Show Spoiler +v.1.0- fixed aesthetics/cliffs near fourth base ramps
- thinned out and untangled clumped doodads
- cleaned up and improved textures under 'low' settings
- modified height-map for ocean floor
- readded overlord pedestal near 7 and 1 o'clock bases
- changed lighting to make it look more like blazing hot sunlight
- added more clouds
v.0.8- widened gap between main and third more to prevent early warp-in/blink into main
- added custom lighting
- added more decorative cliffs and doodads
- increased map bounds from 140 squared to 142 squared
v.0.7- widened gap between main and third to prevent early pylon based warp-ins into main
- increased map bounds from 132 squared to 140 squared
- increased build space in main and natural
- fixed pathing (in fact completely repainted the whole pathing (to improve/allow near diagonal cliff pathing))
- made unwalkable areas visually obvious (more doodads)
- cosmetic texture fixes here and there and a couple of doodad changes
- fixed minor asymmetries
- rearranged minerals in all bases to improve pathing for bigger units
- added two small lakes near the gold bases
- removed destructible rocks from gold bases
- added line of sight blocked dropzone in main (attached to reaper/colossus entrance)
v.0.6- non-ramp choke in main removed
- blocked main backdoor removed
- main space slightly increased
- positions of natural/third changed (one is now on very high ground like the main)
- removed center Xel'Naga Tower
- slightly changed other Xel'Naga Tower positioning (both on high ground now)
- curved flank change path is now blocked initially (near the closest expansion to the main, to favor defender scouting and defender army proximity to incoming attack)
- some ramps widened, some ramps narrowed, some removed
- curved middle ground path which separated the low ground removed
- low ground is more open now offering more movement paths for bigger armies and easier flanking possibilities
- changed gold base and gold base block rock positioning
- removed line of sight blocker around Xel'Naga Towers
- removed line of sight blocker inside tower vision range
- slightly increased space in far corner bases (still planning for more changes with those bases to make them more useful/desirable to have)
- mineral field and geyser positions adjusted in some bases
- removed asymmetrical stray doodad (took quite some time to find that one, heh :D)
- changed water level
- lots of cosmetic changes (on textures/doodads and on decorative cliffs)
- natural+resources+main ramp changed to improve protoss walling possibilites
- corner bases updated to allow engaging aggressor from two flanks
- fixed reaper pathing problems on 2x2 cliff spires
v.0.5- initial version for this thread
- fixed mineral patch/geyser positioning in all bases for resource to base distances to match those in blizzard melee maps
Animated Change Log:
+ Show Spoiler +
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your Country52797 Posts
Getting to your opponent's base will be very difficult because there are no easy ways to get through the middle.
Also, the back door to the main significantly reduces the rush distance.
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This map is way, way too chokey. Zerg won't stand a chance on this map. Aside that however, here are some other issues that I have with the map.
-Third is way too close to the natural.
-The natural isn't FFE friendly.
-It has a backdoor into the main.
-It has gold bases.
Honestly though, it's really hard to find issues with the layout and provide additional constructive feedback when the entire map is super chokey like this. There are only 2 somewhat open areas aside the mains. That's probably the biggest issue here. Open it up, then the base layout and flow will start to shine.
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That your first map ? Looks pretty nice to me o_______o.
On gameplay, i think that you might want to remove the golds blocked by rocks in the middle of the map, because it's everything people hate about terran imbalance. Like, imagine 6 tanks and a PF there. That, and gold bases are useless for toss anyway, and zerg can't take it while it's useful because of the rocks. Other than that, you should open up every pathway, because everything feels very cramped.
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You could try opening up the center of the map a litte better. Maybe instead of the high ground level it and make the golds against a cliff leaving the ground a wide plain? But that may heavily favor the zerg at the point maybe?
Hope this helps brosky
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The middle swirly path gives this map a cloud kingdom feel, except that you compressed more stuff into a smaller map.
Also regarding your backdoor, you might want to take a look at this
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.Maps with this are basicly unplayable. (27) 44% Okay, but in special circumstances. (14) 23% A bad feature that makes the map worse by default. (9) 15% A compleatly fine map feature. (8) 13% Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other (3) 5% 61 total votes Your vote: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke. (Vote): A compleatly fine map feature.
(Vote): Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other
(Vote): Okay, but in special circumstances.
(Vote): A bad feature that makes the map worse by default.
(Vote): Maps with this are basicly unplayable.
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I think this map focus's TOO much on late game power positions. IF you control the S (which is completely reasonable) you by default get rid of all but 2 ground attack paths while having control over a 5base cluster. The 2 remaining ground attack paths are on the very edges of the map which isn't the best of ideas. The choke from the natural to 4th is too narrow. I would make it wider and put in destructible rocks that cover half the path. Another thing, the map doesn't feel like there is enough space to put enough buildings without heavily impeding army movement from base to base.
Also the expansions in the corners don't flow and aren't necessary. From what the map looks like, you made the map, then realized you had the corners open and just decided to put an expo there. I would just remove it and cut the map at the LOS blockers.
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In order for the backdoor to work I think you need to reduce the distance that the defender has to cover; at the moment it's only marginally smaller then the distance that the attacker does. I would perhaps move the small choke you created within the main closer towards your natural. I would also perhaps reduce the width of the ramp so that it can be held with no more then two forcefields.
Edit: I agree with the above poster about the two expos in the corner, they just look like after thoughts atm. While I wouldn't remove it completely, I'd look into stream lining it more with the rest of the map and making it a more viable fourth base option.
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The map looks pretty cool, I actually like the path in the middle and the complex composition (don't complain about those gold expansions, think about Shattered temple golds...), but the backdoor kills it.
- Remember Blistering Sands (aka the cheese fest everyone downvoted?)
- More cheese has been discovered since!
- How do you stop a 4Gate? A Roach/ling Allin?
Really, for now I see it as one of those maps you either downvote or cheese on. Which makes the well-thought composition of the rest pretty irrelevant, since no one will go any further than 2 bases.
I see this as a 70% W/R for Toss, 20% for Zerg, 10% for Terran.
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On February 25 2012 13:13 Timetwister22 wrote:
This map is way, way too chokey. Zerg won't stand a chance on this map. Aside that however, here are some other issues that I have with the map.
-Third is way too close to the natural.
-The natural isn't FFE friendly.
-It has a backdoor into the main.
-It has gold bases.
Honestly though, it's really hard to find issues with the layout and provide additional constructive feedback when the entire map is super chokey like this. There are only 2 somewhat open areas aside the mains. That's probably the biggest issue here. Open it up, then the base layout and flow will start to shine.
I don't see a problem with the gold bases. They seem really hard to hold and are more balanced race-wise after the mule change. Everything else I agree with though.
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The reason why Blistering Sands was bad was cause the defender had to cover literally twice the distance that the attacker had to.
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On February 25 2012 18:28 midnight.tokyo wrote:
The reason why Blistering Sands was bad was cause the defender had to cover literally twice the distance that the attacker had to.
Look :
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/warcraft/images/news/blistering_sands_480.jpg)
You can even see that there is the same distance between the starting location, the ramp and the backdoor rocks (while here, the rocks are much further away). Map distance is irrelevant, Proxy Pylons make everything possible.
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The starting location is also irrelevant and I was of course referring to the distance between the backdoor and the natural choke (i.e a normal game where people expand, pvp being the current exception).
Edit: Even if it was a 1base vs 1base situation on Blistering, the distance required by both the defender and attacker to cover from ramp to backdoor is about equal. If the attacker had to travel twice the distance of the defender between ramp and backdoor, who do you think has the advantage?
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Hey there Dennis!
First of all, congratulations on building such a good looking map. Certainly better than any of my efforts.
I feel however that your lack of game experience has led to you trying to be quite ambitious. That's good, but there're some things that will make games very difficult on this map.
As people have said, backdoor rocks into the main are a nightmare.
Here's my (humble!) ideas:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZDrX7.jpg) http://i.imgur.com/ZDrX7.jpg
The idea would be to make the natural more natural to take. Back doors don't work well but it would open up a harass path or as a route to take your fourth. I like all the counter attack paths btw!
Good work and keep at it. 
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On February 25 2012 20:50 midnight.tokyo wrote:
The starting location is also irrelevant and I was of course referring to the distance between the backdoor and the natural choke (i.e a normal game where people expand, pvp being the current exception).
Edit: Even if it was a 1base vs 1base situation on Blistering, the distance required by both the defender and attacker to cover from ramp to backdoor is about equal. If the attacker had to travel twice the distance of the defender between ramp and backdoor, who do you think has the advantage?
Supposing :
- the defender know where the attacker is
- you're Protoss
There's no way a Zerg or a Terran can hold a 4Gate or a 3Gate Robo/3Gate Stargate with backdoors. You need bunkers, you need to know when and where to defend. You can't make 4 bunkers and leave 8 SCVs at each spot.
Out of curiosity, do you play toss?
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I play random, but I don't see why playing Protoss would affect what I say, I'm not the one who's going to be playing this (no offense intended to the OP of course). I agree that Protoss 1 base all-ins are difficult as it is to hold without having to deal with backdoors. But what if the rocks had 10k HP? What if mineral blocks were in fact used instead of rocks? The problem I see with backdoors is that they do not buy enough time for the defender, not that they exist at all as you seem are suggesting.
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Right, so backdoor rocks as they exist are a problem.
It's not a matter of distance the defender has to cover, because you can flank him anyway and force twice as many static defenses, or break the rocks AND push the ramp at the same time. It's not a matter of HP neither, unless you give the rocks a ridiculous amount, and then it becomes useless because unbreakable until you have two 100/100 armies.
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Thanks a lot for all the feedback everyone.
Sorry for not responding in detail individually at the moment but I've read all of your posts carefully and multiple times (still might have forgotten something important, if so, please don't hesitate to point me to it again) and I've worked all night on v.0.6a taking care of all the major problems that have been raised (see the spoiler at the top of the edited first post in this thread (new version was not published on battle.net yet)).
I'll respond in more detail later after getting some sleep.
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Wow, some pretty drastic changes there. The removal of the S definitely opens up the map although I'm a little sad that such a prominent feature had to be removed.
While I like most of the changes a few new issues seem to have arisen:
- Natural is now near impossible for Protoss to take off anything short of a 3gate expand. Try and rearrange the main ramp or natural somehow so that a wall between the natural and ramp can be made with no more then three buildings.
- The narrow choke leading into the natural you've walled with rocks provides no incentive at all for the attacker to take down (or perhaps this was your intention?). Any push on the third base would rather go straight up the ramp while an attack on the natural would either approach from the natural ramp of simply go around via the third. An attacking army that commits to destroying the rocks could be trapped in the choke and almost literally be between a rock and a hard place.
- With the backdoor gone, the 2 o'clock and 7 o'clock expos have become viable fourths for Zerg (3 and 6 o'clock still look like the superior choice for Protoss and Terran). But now imagine a Tank or Colossi push coming along and sieging up on the other side of that gap. Zerg has no effective way of attacking into this position and the Tanks/Colossi can shell away at the expo. I propose that you increase the width of the gap so this isn't possible or remove it completely to create a more open field.
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+ Show Spoiler [reply to comments on v.0.5] +On February 25 2012 13:04 TehTemplar wrote:
Getting to your opponent's base will be very difficult because there are no easy ways to get through the middle.
Also, the back door to the main significantly reduces the rush distance. The middle has been opened up greatly now and the main backdoor was removed alongside with a few other tweaks to the main itself. On February 25 2012 13:13 Timetwister22 wrote:
This map is way, way too chokey. Zerg won't stand a chance on this map. Aside that however, here are some other issues that I have with the map.
-Third is way too close to the natural.
-The natural isn't FFE friendly.
-It has a backdoor into the main.
-It has gold bases. Fixed two of those issues, still need to improve on FFE friendlyness. Will be keeping the gold bases but changed them along with the rest of the now vast low ground area. On February 25 2012 13:15 ArcticRaven wrote:
That your first map ? Looks pretty nice to me o_______o. Thanks. First Starcraft2 map yes but I have some experience from playing around with map editors (too many to mention but including the one for Warcraft III) in the past. Unfortunately I seem to have lost those old maps (need to check some of my ancient backup CDs to see if I can still find any). I also have some experience in making things look good due to my pixelling and drawing hobbies. On February 25 2012 14:50 BWalma wrote:
Maybe instead of the high ground level it and make the golds against a cliff leaving the ground a wide plain? But that may heavily favor the zerg at the point maybe? Great idea (already done now). About that favoring the Zerg a lot: I guess that would only be the case if in addition to the openness a few more low ground bases would be added (I think I won't do that because I don't want to give Zerg an unfair advantage). On February 25 2012 15:13 Sea_Food wrote:The middle swirly path gives this map a cloud kingdom feel, except that you compressed more stuff into a smaller map. Also regarding your backdoor, you might want to take a look at this + Show Spoiler +Poll: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.Maps with this are basicly unplayable. (27) 44% Okay, but in special circumstances. (14) 23% A bad feature that makes the map worse by default. (9) 15% A compleatly fine map feature. (8) 13% Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other (3) 5% 61 total votes Your vote: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke. (Vote): A compleatly fine map feature.
(Vote): Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other
(Vote): Okay, but in special circumstances.
(Vote): A bad feature that makes the map worse by default.
(Vote): Maps with this are basicly unplayable.
Now that you mention it, that path did indeed seem a lot similar to Cloud Kingdom. Not a bad thing per se but since in this case it was responsible for a major point of critique (overall chockeyness) it had to go. Also that poll added to convincing me to remove the main backdoor. On February 25 2012 15:35 iTzSnypah wrote:
The choke from the natural to 4th is too narrow. I would make it wider and put in destructible rocks that cover half the path. Another thing, the map doesn't feel like there is enough space to put enough buildings without heavily impeding army movement from base to base. There is a lot more space to put buildings now while still having wide paths for moving armies around. I put the destructible rocks close on the defenders side in a way for the def to easily keep an eye on them. They can in theory be a backdoor into the natural but only if the defender is sleeping. Later in the game, the defender may choose to blast those rocks away to gain an additional path for his army to move around that area between the natural and the third (which might be mostly filled with building by then). Long story short, that blocked path should work mostly in favor of the defender and be unattractive to the attacker. On February 25 2012 16:50 midnight.tokyo wrote:
I agree with the above poster about the two expos in the corner, they just look like after thoughts atm. While I wouldn't remove it completely, I'd look into stream lining it more with the rest of the map and making it a more viable fourth base option. Working on those bases. On February 25 2012 17:56 Kukaracha wrote:
The map looks pretty cool, I actually like the path in the middle and the complex composition (don't complain about those gold expansions, think about Shattered temple golds...), but the backdoor kills it. Thanks. I liked that path too but it had to go for playability/balance reasons. I play Terran, so I guess I designed that path mostly with Terran strategies in mind which would have worked nicely on it but would not have given other races too many options to use it. On February 25 2012 18:28 Penke wrote:
I don't see a problem with the gold bases. They seem really hard to hold and are more balanced race-wise after the mule change. Everything else I agree with though. Glad I'm not the only one who likes the gold bases. They are probably even harder to hold now that the high ground around them is gone. On February 25 2012 21:17 zasta wrote:
First of all, congratulations on building such a good looking map ...
Here's my (humble!) ideas... Thank you. Good ideas, I added some variation to them and moved the third base up hill and opened just a small ledge on the side for cliff walking/reaper jumping for those who can't live without their beloved reaper harassment(e.g. me!).
+ Show Spoiler [reply to comments on v.0.6a] +On February 26 2012 17:49 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Wow, some pretty drastic changes there. The removal of the S definitely opens up the map although I'm a little sad that such a prominent feature had to be removed.
While I like most of the changes a few new issues seem to have arisen...
- ...
- The narrow choke leading into the natural you've walled with rocks provides no incentive at all for the attacker to take down (or perhaps this was your intention?). ...
- ... Yup, removing the S made my heart bleed a little as well but it's for the better and if a feature does not work for the game-flow it has to go no matter how cool(heh, for Terran at least) it seems at first... Yes that choke, those rocks and that whole path are designed to aid mainly the defender (see above in the reply to 0.5 issues). I'm sure though that someone will come up with a clever way to may it work as a viable point for attack though even if just for distraction and mind games. I'll continue to work on the other issues now.
Thanks again for the feedback everyone, keep it coming!
Also, is there an easy way of publishing this map to other regions without having to buy extra licenses?
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Unfortunately not, you need to own an account on the server you wish to upload to. Your best bet is just to ask someone you trust to upload on your behalf.
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On February 25 2012 13:13 Timetwister22 wrote:
This map is way, way too chokey. Zerg won't stand a chance on this map.
I really, really hate seeing this comment over and over in map critiquing. Zerg as a race has lots of viable options, one being mutas which could really care less about choke points, and the other is their strongest (OP) combo - broodlord infestor.
If anything, a choke point hurts the opposing team more when trying to fight a BL/ Infestor combo because of the fungal growths. "Too chokey" can sometimes be applicable in map critiquing, but in the overall case of TL, it is used faaaar too often. I dont think this looks to bad and I like the uniqeness of the map. I would like to see this used in a map of the month tournament before making further judgement.
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1) mutas don't care for chokes, but mutas alone suck. You need lings and blings, and those are really sub-efficient in chokes.
2) ok, brood/corruptor/infestor is strong in chokes, but there's no way the game will reach that point if there is nowhere the zerg can engage.
Tl;dr go play the game before you post.
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On February 26 2012 17:49 midnight.tokyo wrote:
- Natural is now near impossible for Protoss to take off anything short of a 3gate expand. Try and rearrange the main ramp or natural somehow so that a wall between the natural and ramp can be made with no more then three buildings. After reading that a few times, I'm not sure anymore as to which ramp(s) you're referring there.
Please clarify using the markings in the following picture. My gut feeling tells me that in order to prevent the natural from being overran by lings, at least two walls must be build at 1 and 3 or 1 and 4. Where exactly should I narrow the space to allow those three-building walls?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yChGP.gif)
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Attempting to wall off at any of the two points you labeled would most likely end in disaster for the Protoss. What I had in mind was the standard ramp-to-nexus three building wall off.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rw51Z.jpg)
As you can see, it currently takes four buildings and two pylons (by my estimation) to wall off, and even then the outer pylon is weak to baneling busts.
Edit: To clarify, either the natural has to be moved closer to the ramp or the ramp moved closer to the natural.
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two walls for the natural? FE for T and P is nearly.. no it is impossible.. or am I wrong?
edit:
On February 27 2012 18:04 midnight.tokyo wrote:Attempting to wall off at any of the two points you labeled would most likely end in disaster for the Protoss. What I had in mind was the standard ramp-to-nexus three building wall off. As you can see, it currently takes four buildings and two pylons (by my estimation) to wall off, and even then the outer pylon is weak to baneling busts.
good offer... but i think it's too hard for P to defend it when playing a FE style. especially the pylon on the right.. the distance between the choke and the natural should be closer. I like the the connection from Main to Natural on Cloud Kingdom
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Thanks for clarifying that.
Based on your suggestion and problem description, I fiddled about with the natural and ramp placement for a while and changed both, the natural(rearranged all resources) and the ramp and found a way of walling it in with just two buildings (and having room for two cannons, all in range of a single pylon).
Aesthetics of the main plateau form suffered a bit though (I could fix that easily but not without narrowing the path from the natural to the third).
I also checked and made sure that stalkers and immortals can still move up and down the ramp and around the nexus and between minerals and geysers.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y5uOP.png)
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Hm. there is no space between the choke and the gas? (1)
imagine you want to save your probes by clicking on the highground, but you failed and they try to escape in your trap (2) ... outch^^
what do you think about that? (black=highground/grey=choke)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D9gVh.png)
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If I'm seeing this correctly, one building would actually be sufficient to wall off. Basically, any two buildings with edges adjacent to each other will not let units through. The key word there is edge, because if a building is only touching the other one diagonally (i.e at the corner) it will still allow workers and zerglings through. The natural could still do with a bit of work in this regard but I reckon your map is ready for play testing.
Edit: There is another thing I noticed actually, the drop zone behind the LoS blocker. It seems a bit unintuitive in its current location since reaching it requires you to fly over your opponent's natural.
Edit Edit:
Some pictures from liquipedia to go with my explanation above:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Walling#with_other_Buildings
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Wall-In_at_Natural (Antigua Shipyard and Metalopolis show examples of Ramp-Nexus walls)
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On February 27 2012 22:01 StaY.qL wrote:
Hm. there is no space between the choke and the gas? (1) D'oh, good point. Can't change the high ground as you proposed though because the editor does not seem to let me shear off single grid fields from a cliff and those ramps seem to have a fixed length. I also want it to retain a form which allows Terran to wall off their main at the top of the ramp.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JgFXO.png)
On February 27 2012 23:33 midnight.tokyo wrote:There is another thing I noticed actually, the drop zone behind the LoS blocker. It seems a bit unintuitive in its current location since reaching it requires you to fly over your opponent's natural. I'll see what I can do about that. I didn't think of it as a drop-zone but I see how that would be neat to have. My idea was to have this for cheesing in bunkers, barracks, pylons and whatnot in early game. 
On February 27 2012 23:33 midnight.tokyo wrote:The natural could still do with a bit of work in this regard but I reckon your map is ready for play testing. I'll make a release in a couple of hours. First I have to make those changes to the other main/natural as well and then I want to fix some pathing problems I encountered while reaper/colossus testing yesterday night (some 2x2 cliff spires allow for a gazillion of reapers to clump up one them).
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Yes, it's a lot better with the ramp leading towards the natural and not away from it.
However, with the ramp as it is now, a protoss who's never played the map before can potentially put his first building in a position that blocks the nexus. Put the expansion a little farther away and it wont be a problem.
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Teamwork
I agree with Midnight.tokyo... would like to test it 
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v.0.6 is published (see updated opening post in this thread)
I was busy making that release, so those last comments since my last post did not make it into 0.6 yet.
So... where to find trustworthy individuals to publish in USA, Australia, etc.?
(afk for now, back in a few hours)
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i'll try it tomorrow time for bed.. :/
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I'd be more then happy to publish it on SEA and NA, just gotta make sure I have the slots free (you're given 3 I believe so I should be fine) =)
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your Country52797 Posts
You can warp into your opponent's main, breaking PvP.
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Could be a problem…I totally did not miss that
It'll he a squeeze, but I think just enough room can be made between the main and third without reducing building area, the mains already small enough as it is .
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On February 28 2012 07:37 midnight.tokyo wrote:
I'd be more then happy to publish it on SEA and NA, just gotta make sure I have the slots free (you're given 3 I believe so I should be fine) =) Thank you, I wrote you a PM.
On my battle.net account I have a limit of 20 documents totalling 105 MB, so I guess they increased the limit if it was 3 at some point.
On February 28 2012 07:48 TehTemplar wrote:
You can warp into your opponent's main, breaking PvP. Noted. I've also already found a couple of minor asymmetries in the curved defenders paths. Fixing that will have to go into 0.7.
Out of curiosity I have to ask though: How can SameRace vs SameRace ever be broken on a symmetrical map? If both players have exactly the same options, is it not auto-balanced by definition?
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On February 28 2012 10:59 Baumvieh wrote:
Out of curiosity I have to ask though: How can SameRace vs SameRace ever be broken on a symmetrical map? If both players have exactly the same options, is it not auto-balanced by definition?
Is it broken on a symetrical map? Don't think so.
I played some games tonight on it.. 1 with Terran and 2 with Toss. good wall-off options, after work i'll try it with zerg.
But the gold is nearly untakekable.. duno if it's even necessary 'cause there are 5 bases for both... and maps without gold being higher in demand than maps with gold expansion... at least in the higher leagues/pro scene
But the first impression of the Map is really good
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On February 28 2012 10:59 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:37 midnight.tokyo wrote:
I'd be more then happy to publish it on SEA and NA, just gotta make sure I have the slots free (you're given 3 I believe so I should be fine) =) Thank you, I wrote you a PM. On my battle.net account I have a limit of 20 documents totalling 105 MB, so I guess they increased the limit if it was 3 at some point. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:48 TehTemplar wrote:
You can warp into your opponent's main, breaking PvP. Noted. I've also already found a couple of minor asymmetries in the curved defenders paths. Fixing that will have to go into 0.7. Out of curiosity I have to ask though: How can SameRace vs SameRace ever be broken on a symmetrical map? If both players have exactly the same options, is it not auto-balanced by definition?
Great, I'll get onto it once I get home. I'll add full credit to you in the description as well as a link to this thread for feedback.
To answer your question, mirror matches on symmetric maps will always be balanced, but they can still be broken. A PvP on v0.6 will almost always turn into 4Gate vs 4Gate as no other strategy will be as strong. With one or both sides warping into the other's main this will often result in a base trade.
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Apologies for the double post but the map has now been uploaded to SEA and NA by Akinokaze under the name 'Oceanic Mountain'.
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On February 28 2012 14:27 StaY.qL wrote:I played some games tonight on it.. 1 with Terran and 2 with Toss. good wall-off options, after work i'll try it with zerg. But the gold is nearly untakekable.. duno if it's even necessary 'cause there are 5 bases for both... and maps without gold being higher in demand than maps with gold expansion... at least in the higher leagues/pro scene But the first impression of the Map is really good Thank you for playing. I would love to see the replays for evaluation (and perhaps for adding some replays to the main post of this thread if that's ok with you).
I played a couple of AI v AI and me v AI games on the map:
The AI often loses to the other AI because they don't seem to scout efficiently(often they don't scout at all), missing each other armies while taking different paths to the other side (AI seems to like silly all-ins without leaving any protection whatsoever behind at their own base).
I lost most AI games(on very hard) due to not expanding quickly enough or due to having an insufficiently small army.
On February 29 2012 15:38 midnight.tokyo wrote:
Apologies for the double post but the map has now been uploaded to SEA and NA by Akinokaze under the name 'Oceanic Mountain'. No need to apologize! (unless mods think otherwise, heh). I updated the main post with the new info. Thanks again.
Now to the issues that need fixing for 0.7, just summing them up here from what has been said:- make more room in the natural to prevent accidental building over only possible nexus position
- change gap between main and third to disallow pylon based warp in in PvP
- fix reaper path-finding between main and third (they currently don't seem to find the outer ledge to go around those trees in the small gap and instead they keep walking around randomly in front of the gap even though the whole gap is marked unpathable)
- fix a couple of minor asymmetries (one of which affects cliff walking shortest path between bases)
I think I also want to change something about the middle of the map again.
More precisely, I'm thinking of adding a lake or a small cliff wall to seperate the gold bases, so they would become a bit easier to take and defend(they'd still be very exposed to the north/south).
Maybe I even make it so that the middle does not completely seperate them but so it will have a really narrow path there to disallow a ball of death army from just quickly strolling over to take out the gold base on the side.
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Hello.
I really like what you're doing with this map, your disciplined and iterative approach is really paying dividends. The map seems, as far as I can tell, to do a decent job of enabling a wide range of styles: I see both turtle styles and highly aggressive, counter attacking styles being both viable and fun.
I'm concerned about the gold bases a little in that they might enable turtle styles too much: they're placed in locations you'd want your army to be in any case, and I don't see a Zerg or a Protoss busting down the rocks early on. So it seems they'd only really be beneficial to Terran and some Protoss Death ball styles vs Zerg in the late game. But this is purely speculation. I'm going to look for it when I get home and play a couple of games on it.
I like it, keep it up!
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On February 29 2012 18:30 Baumvieh wrote:
I played a couple of AI v AI and me v AI games on the map:
The AI often loses to the other AI because they don't seem to scout efficiently(often they don't scout at all), missing each other armies while taking different paths to the other side (AI seems to like silly all-ins without leaving any protection whatsoever behind at their own base).
I lost most AI games(on very hard) due to not expanding quickly enough or due to having an insufficiently small army.
Not sure about the other difficulties, but Insane AI uses map hacks (and also resource hacks, they mine normal resources at the rate of rich ones).
On February 29 2012 18:30 Baumvieh wrote:Now to the issues that need fixing for 0.7, just summing them up here from what has been said: - make more room in the natural to prevent accidental building over only possible nexus position
- change gap between main and third to disallow pylon based warp in in PvP
- fix reaper path-finding between main and third (they currently don't seem to find the outer ledge to go around those trees in the small gap and instead they keep walking around randomly in front of the gap even though the whole gap is marked unpathable)
- fix a couple of minor asymmetries (one of which affects cliff walking shortest path between bases)
I think I also want to change something about the middle of the map again. More precisely, I'm thinking of adding a lake or a small cliff wall to seperate the gold bases, so they would become a bit easier to take and defend(they'd still be very exposed to the north/south). Maybe I even make it so that the middle does not completely seperate them but so it will have a really narrow path there to disallow a ball of death army from just quickly strolling over to take out the gold base on the side.
I think removing the rocks from the gold might be enough to make them viable. The high ground behind it makes it incredibly easy to harass, but at the same time committing to an attack will expose an opening to the natural fourth. Gold bases shouldn't be so risk free and choking the middle would probably create a bigger problem then the one you're solving.
A few things I've found so far:
Places that appear pathable but are actually not
+ Show Spoiler +
Places that reapers can end up in
+ Show Spoiler +
Places that large units cannot pass (Archons/Seige Tanks)
+ Show Spoiler +
Other random bits
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wpKuF.jpg) (Seemingly random hold in the ground) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HsZc4.jpg) (Very little air space behind natural)
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Thanks a lot for taking the time to report all those issues Mr. Tokyo. I fixed most of them and all the minor asymmetries. Still need to fix warp-in to main problem and natural roominess.
I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I just leave this image here for now instead of writing a wall of text.
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Haha no problem, I've applied for a name change to Akinokaze actually so I might not be under this name for much longer With the exception of the two things you mention I don't think there any more glaring issues that need to be addressed.
Edit: Can't quite tell on the overview, but did you replace some of the Overlord Pedestals with doodads or just put them on top? (yes, they actually do serve a purpose in case you weren't aware )
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v.0.7 published on EU
On February 29 2012 18:49 SeinGalton wrote:
Hello.
I really like what you're doing with this map, your disciplined and iterative approach is really paying dividends. The map seems, as far as I can tell, to do a decent job of enabling a wide range of styles: I see both turtle styles and highly aggressive, counter attacking styles being both viable and fun.
I'm concerned about the gold bases a little in that they might enable turtle styles too much: they're placed in locations you'd want your army to be in any case, and I don't see a Zerg or a Protoss busting down the rocks early on. So it seems they'd only really be beneficial to Terran and some Protoss Death ball styles vs Zerg in the late game. But this is purely speculation. I'm going to look for it when I get home and play a couple of games on it.
I like it, keep it up! Thanks. Would like to see the replays. Just published version 0.7 though, so... heh.
On March 01 2012 01:38 midnight.tokyo wrote:Haha no problem, I've applied for a name change to Akinokaze actually so I might not be under this name for much longer With the exception of the two things you mention I don't think there any more glaring issues that need to be addressed. Edit: Can't quite tell on the overview, but did you replace some of the Overlord Pedestals with doodads or just put them on top? (yes, they actually do serve a purpose in case you weren't aware ) Yes, I added doodads on top, to make it obvious they are not walk-able by ground units. Overlords can still happily fly/rest over them. All the other issues should be resolved now, see updated main post with information on v.0.7 (PM'ed you the new version).
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This map is really nice!
Small suggestion: move the watchtowers closer to the center of the map so they down cover the exit to the third. It's nice to have some areas that aren't covered by towers.
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On February 29 2012 18:30 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 14:27 StaY.qL wrote:I played some games tonight on it.. 1 with Terran and 2 with Toss. good wall-off options, after work i'll try it with zerg. But the gold is nearly untakekable.. duno if it's even necessary 'cause there are 5 bases for both... and maps without gold being higher in demand than maps with gold expansion... at least in the higher leagues/pro scene But the first impression of the Map is really good Thank you for playing. I would love to see the replays for evaluation (and perhaps for adding some replays to the main post of this thread if that's ok with you).
ofc i'll upload the replays after work.
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NA and SEA have been updated to v0.7b (the NA version is incorrectly labeled v0.8 as I had to reupload  )
Baumvieh, I've PM'd you with a replay of a game I played earlier. It's on v0.6b though so I'm not sure if you'll be able to view it.
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Saw the replay, worked nicely and was fun to watch. This also proves that for replays, regions do in fact have access to maps hosted on other regions (it downloaded the old version from the other region before starting the replay). This fact gives me some hope that eventually clients will be able to choose any region (worldwide) before login (like it was in other blizzard games) because the general capability for the client to connect to them seems to be there already.
Haven't started working on 0.8 yet, I'll wait for some replays and play some test games myself before going on to making changes.
Already reported issues in 0.7: can still pylon-warp into main
(thinking of adding LOS blockers along the northeast cliff of the main
edit: just checked and it seems LOS blockers don't help... need to make an even wider gap there)
On March 01 2012 13:15 dudecrush wrote:
This map is really nice!
Small suggestion: move the watchtowers closer to the center of the map so they down cover the exit to the third. It's nice to have some areas that aren't covered by towers. Thanks. The watchtowers already cover just a small portion of the map as it is and there is a wide open path through the center where large armies can already move freely outside of tower range.
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I like that the gold bases are seigeable, though based on my principals, gold bases shouldn't exist .
The surface that a player must control on 3 bases is huge, like Cloud Kingdom LE, which I don't really like.
The destructible rocks between the nat and the 3rd are a little wierd in my opinion. Like I said, the surface to be convered is already huge, but adding a 3rd entrance to the threshold is just a little too much.
There's no space to fly mutas/drops/banshees/warp prisms/etc behind the main, since the ground goes all the way to the edge of the map.
Thanks for reading my picky remarks!
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update: can't upload it today, I unfortunately didn't get around to start my Computer..
i'll pm you tomorrow maybe i can play some more games on it
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can you blink from 3rd base? warpin
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On March 02 2012 06:10 sorrowptoss wrote:I like that the gold bases are seigeable, though based on my principals, gold bases shouldn't exist . The surface that a player must control on 3 bases is huge, like Cloud Kingdom LE, which I don't really like. The destructible rocks between the nat and the 3rd are a little wierd in my opinion. Like I said, the surface to be convered is already huge, but adding a 3rd entrance to the threshold is just a little too much. There's no space to fly mutas/drops/banshees/warp prisms/etc behind the main, since the ground goes all the way to the edge of the map. Thanks for reading my picky remarks!
midnight.tokyo here (newly renamed), I'll see if I can address your concerns:
- The distance between the natural and third is a bit on the long side I agree, but I believe this will result in constant small contests over the watchtowers as well as removing a bit of the power from deathballs by forcing players to commit forces to defense and/or wall off/static d.
- The small patch leading to the natural is a bit odd yes, it's a legacy from the original concept of the map when it had a Cloud Kingdom style S going horizontally across. Personally I do not see this path being used offensively in most games but rather defensively to execute flanks on attackers coming into the third/fourth.
- The boundaries of the map were increased from 132x132 to 140x140 in the latest version to allow air units to comfortably fly in to the natural/third. I notice that you specifically mentioned the main so I assume the fix did its job, though I agree it's a little bit too cramped once you fly up to the main. I experimented with a few boundary changes and believe an increase of 4 units to just the camera boundary (not the map boundary) will reduce the risk of approaching the main enough that players may attempt to do so.
On March 02 2012 07:22 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
can you blink from 3rd base? warpin
Yes, you can currently warp/blink in to the main without any additional vision. This will hopefully be fixed in the next update.
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On March 02 2012 06:10 sorrowptoss wrote:
Thanks for reading my picky remarks! You're welcome. :D
On March 02 2012 15:27 Akinokaze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 07:22 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
can you blink from 3rd base? warpin Yes, you can currently warp/blink in to the main without any additional vision. This will hopefully be fixed in the next update.
Yes, that will be fixed. I spent a couple of hours this morning (woke up at 4am due an urge to continue mapping(I think I even dreamed about mapping)) trying to increment the gap by small amounts, play-testing each time to check blinking/warping in from the third until it was finally impossible (without already having a scout in the main).
The main lost some space due to that but I added a little space near the ramp (does not fully make up for the lost space but I think there's still enough room for everything important in early to mid game... and if you want more secure space: expand!).
I also increased the playable bounds again from 140 squared to 142 squared to make slightly more air space around the main.
A couple of hours pass by...
edit/append:
Published v0.8 on EU (Akinokaze, PM'ed you the new version) and updated main post.
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Did you get my PM baumvieh??
I see no replays in your posts
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On March 05 2012 13:25 StaY.qL wrote:
Did you get my PM baumvieh??
I see no replays in your posts No I didn't get any PM from you, try sending it again. I only got replays from Akinokaze so far. My own replays are too boring to show (against AI).
Tomorrow (actually today, been up all night again), I'll publish 1.0 and then I'll add any replays I have gotten so far to the main post (will of course keep adding replays if I get more). But now, sleep.
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On March 05 2012 14:57 Baumvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 13:25 StaY.qL wrote:
Did you get my PM baumvieh??
I see no replays in your posts No I didn't get any PM from you, try sending it again. I only got replays from Akinokaze so far. My own replays are too boring to show (against AI). Tomorrow (actually today, been up all night again), I'll publish 1.0 and then I'll add any replays I have gotten so far to the main post (will of course keep adding replays if I get more). But now, sleep.
Okay... that's weird.. ~~ i'll try it again when i'm back home from work. gn8 workaholic
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On March 05 2012 15:05 StaY.qL wrote:Okay... that's weird.. ~~ i'll try it again when i'm back home from work. gn8 workaholic Hehe, last night I spent way more time on the banner than on the map itself. XD
I just published 1.0 now (see updated main post), will add replays soon (still haven't received yours, if PM keeps failing just mail it to baumvieh[at]googlemail[dot][com]).
changes in v.1.0 from 0.8- fixed aesthetics/cliffs near fourth base ramps
- thinned out and untangled clumped doodads
- cleaned up and improved textures under 'low' settings
- modified height-map for ocean floor
- readded overlord pedestal near 7 and 1 o'clock bases
- changed lighting to make it look more like blazing hot sunlight
- added more clouds
So... I'm declaring this map finished (for now) and I already have some ideas for another one. Thanks again to everyone who commented so far, I feel like I've learned a lot while making this map and while reading everyone's feedback. Special thanks to Akinokaze for publishing the map in other battle.net regions (if anyone would like to publish it in other, missing regions, please PM me).
If you like the map and if you play it, you can put a smile on my face by sending me your replays which I will then add to the main post.
Now instead of mapping, I'll probably spend the next few days playing the game more and watching the live streams from the IEM.
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I like the setup for the first four bases on this map, but it seems like it's a little hard to get a fifth base, considering the first four are pretty easy, and the center seems pretty cramped. I might simplify the central structures and make them take up less room. A Terran with the high ground and watchtower seems almost invulnerable, with a gold base and a strong map control point. Maybe it would be better to have just one watchtower in the very middle, so there become three important control points instead of only two super-strong control points.
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v1.0 will be uploaded to SEA and NA within an hour or two
Thanks for including my little disclaimer btw Baumvieh. For any one who's interested, my replays show at best low diamond level play (might be good to mention that in the OP) where I don't quite make use of the map. They should be sufficient enough to give a (very) rough idea on how the map could potentially be played out though.
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@Gfire: Thank you for your comment. The center really isn't cramped and it just seems like it is but there is plenty of space for big armies and the gold bases are hard to get/hold. The high ground there isn't very spacey though, so a Terran abusing it as a power position with gazillions of siege tanks isn't possible (they'd also be easy to pick off from there with phoenixes or mutas and I'm sure Zerg and Protoss players are creative enough to find ways of working those positions in their favor). Towers and map control work for any player regardless of race and as it is now, even if one player control both towers, the other player could just sneak in an army through the wide open center which is not covered by them.
+ Show Spoiler [Meanwhile, I have...] +...started working on a new map( Emerald Steel), which will be a 1v1 Melee map as well. The map isn't ready for its' own thread yet as so far, all I have created is a mockup(see below) to find and capture the general mood that I'm going for. The basic idea is that it's going to be a mysterious rocky jungle scenery with big (rusty)steel structures in it. The whole map will be in the form of a long island in a dark wide stream going through the jungle. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6lcOi.png)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J8PEw.png)
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