ok, im terrible zvz, probably pretty bad in general, but worse zvz. could someone point out to me why i fell behind from the start? i was thinking maybe cuz i researched ling speed and he didn't, and i didnt make any use of my lings early, so he had an early gas advantage. but i really don't know. any help would be appreciated, midian's especially

.

the rest of the game beyond the first muta battle is basically me dying slowly.

replay: http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2PMPFLFFRNTJO05613S5KPQPQL

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 03 2005 22:08 GMT

Well i'm 6 minutes in and you're playing 12 hatch v 12 pool all wrong. You're at a disadvantage with gas and an advantage with minerals, thus you can control his ramp with lings, if he tries to come down and fight a ling v ling battle then you're at an advantage cause you should have 2 or 3 extra larva than him since you made hatch first. After controlling the map with lings you can safely expand, you'll generally be able to afford the expansion when spire is nearing completion. You won't have enough minerals left for muta just yet, but that's ok - make scourge to counter his muta, watch what he's using his larva for and counter appropriately. When your hatchery is around 50% complete send a drone to make extractor at natural, hopefully you were able to pump a few drones during this time, this'll depend on whether you were forced to make more lings and scourge, or scourge and drones (if you have a significant ling advantage), then get your 2nd gas going and pump muta/scourge/ling according to how many you need.. Playing this way depends on good scourge control and you have to pay close attention to what he's making, but it's a strong way of playing. Going 12 hatch vs 12 pool and then hatching only muta is throwing the only advantage you gain by going 12 hatch. Those spores a waste too.
Here's an example of how it should be played :
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=29170

YoUr_KiLLeR

United States3420 Posts

September 04 2005 03:14 GMT

ok, thanks a lot.

YoUr_KiLLeR

United States3420 Posts

September 04 2005 03:16 GMT

what about ling speed? when/why should that be researched?

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 04 2005 03:39 GMT

You need ling speed if you're going to take your expansion that soon, it's imperative for getting any sort of map control which is needed if you're going to expand to your natural, and later other main/naturals, it also helps make sure he doesn't take his expansion too soon, there's not so much of a threat from lings if they don't have speed, and thus the other player can take his own expansion comfortably. Ever tried to fight with nonspeed lings vs speed lings? You can't retreat and it's easier for him to create an arm and thus out micro you. If you just wanna stick to 1 base and go only muta and stick to it all game it's not so important, but that's gonna suck unless you can deal a lot of damage with your muta, which is pretty hard to do if your opponent knows it's coming... usually the only time i see players not making ling speed is when they make gas on 9 and stick to only their main, which is particularly common on none gas natural maps such as nostalgia.

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 04 2005 03:41 GMT

When? Usually when you have your first 100 gas you use it for lair, and the 2nd 100 on gas, depends on what the opponent is doing, you could make speed before lair your opponent makes 9 pool for instance.

littlechava

United States7221 Posts

September 04 2005 03:56 GMT

On September 04 2005 12:39 iD.MidiaN wrote:
You need ling speed if you're going to take your expansion that soon, it's imperative for getting any sort of map control which is needed if you're going to expand to your natural, and later other main/naturals, it also helps make sure he doesn't take his expansion too soon, there's not so much of a threat from lings if they don't have speed, and thus the other player can take his own expansion comfortably. Ever tried to fight with nonspeed lings vs speed lings? You can't retreat and it's easier for him to create an arm and thus out micro you. If you just wanna stick to 1 base and go only muta and stick to it all game it's not so important, but that's gonna suck unless you can deal a lot of damage with your muta, which is pretty hard to do if your opponent knows it's coming... usually the only time i see players not making ling speed is when they make gas on 9 and stick to only their main, which is particularly common on none gas natural maps such as nostalgia.

Do you happen to have any ZvZ reps like this? I was under the impression ling speed is pretty important, even on Nost :0.

YoUr_KiLLeR

United States3420 Posts

September 04 2005 04:03 GMT

hm ok, thanks again.

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 04 2005 04:12 GMT

I'll look for one where there's no ling speed when i have some time

YoUr_KiLLeR

United States3420 Posts

September 04 2005 06:04 GMT

#10

when is flyer carapace usually researched?

littlechava

United States7221 Posts

September 04 2005 06:06 GMT

#11

I don't think there's an exact time for it, just when you feel you can spare the gas for it when you have your exp up and running.

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 04 2005 06:20 GMT

#12

When you have your second gas and there's no imminant battle, for instance if there's a lot of small muta/scourge skirmishes going on, it's not a good time to upgrade. Wait until the action calms down and you're able to make units/drones at leisure, then start carapace upgrade

YoUr_KiLLeR

United States3420 Posts

September 04 2005 06:29 GMT

#13

i see. i just watched the rep you provided, and i noticed that neither of you drone scouted. what is your decision to drone scout based on? what if your opponent had gone 9 pool against your 12 hatch in that game?

is a big part of zvz the randomness of the rock paper scissors openings? 12 hatch > 12 pool > 9 pool > 12 hatch?

8882

2720 Posts

September 04 2005 08:22 GMT

#14

12hatch and 9pool are a bit like gambling IMO

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 04 2005 08:23 GMT

#15

If he went 9 pool I would've seen his lings coming with my 2nd overlord, if he only sent lings i could fend it off with drones+lings. If I saw drone coming too i'd assume he's gonna make offensive sunken when he sees I went 12 hatch and thus I'd make 2 sunkens + lings. I never used to drone scout much, but this pgtour season I've been losing pretty bad due to bad luck/not fully knowing what he's playing at (man, there's so many players who don't have a clue what they're doing.. if they don't know what they're doing, how the fuck am I meant to know what they're doing? T_T). So yea, I've started drone scouting again. When you see 2 progamers play they'll barely ever drone scout against each other, but I guess since they both know how to play they can figure what their opponent is doing without drone scout.

ToT)MidiaN(

England2183 Posts

September 04 2005 08:24 GMT

#16

On September 04 2005 17:22 8882 wrote:
12hatch and 9pool are a bit like gambling IMO

If you see it like that then 12 pool is a gamble too, since there are builds that you're instantly disadvantaged against if you went 12 pool (12hatch or fast exp). Infact, every build zvz is a gamble if you see it like that

spanner

United States72 Posts

September 04 2005 19:19 GMT

#17

whenever i play a zvz game, i can only do 12 gas straight after lord then 11 pool with 9 scout this is about as far predecided i can be about my build.

ofc, i decide if i ultimately want to do scrouge ling or whatever... but it often doesn't turn out this way.

just watch lots of zvz reps and take note of everything, 2x and sometimes fastest is a great way to absob tactics used.

YoUr_KiLLeR

United States3420 Posts

September 05 2005 02:34 GMT

#18

On September 05 2005 04:19 spanner wrote:
whenever i play a zvz game, i can only do 12 gas straight after lord then 11 pool with 9 scout this is about as far predecided i can be about my build.

ofc, i decide if i ultimately want to do scrouge ling or whatever... but it often doesn't turn out this way.

just watch lots of zvz reps and take note of everything, 2x and sometimes fastest is a great way to absob tactics used.

zvz's one of those matchups that are hard to learn from replays. its very, very experienced based and there are a lot of subtleties that you just can't pick up from replays. so having someone explain to me the reasoning behind their decision making and build is much more helpful than watching the same muta/ling battle build up over and over again in replays.

if you do that same build you describe in every single zvz you play, i dont think you can be a very good zvz player.