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Active: 585 users

Does 4v4 take more skill than 1v1?

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jtp118
Profile Joined November 2010
United States137 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 21:00:48
December 22 2011 20:10 GMT
#1




edit: The thread title should be "Could 4v4..." not "Does 4v4..."

I played BW years ago (2000-01) but recently became interested in competitive SC2 through MLG --- I play Halo and have followed MLG since 2007 --- and there's something I've wondered about for a while.

In Halo, there's a clear differentiation between 1v1 skill and 4v4 skill; some of the players who were best at FFA or 1v1 were not always great at 4v4. In general, I would say that most of the Halo community agreed that being good at 4v4 required more skill, because there are more factors to master. Just as SC2 takes more skill than Checkers because better players have more 'ways' to be better in SC2 (a huge skill gap for build orders, macro, micro, unit control, decision-making ...), 4v4 takes more skill than 1v1, because you have to take into account so many other teamwork-related factors (communication, more complex map positioning, etc.).

Obviously BW and SC2 have had occasional 2v2 leagues, but the community will often refer to this as taking a 'different' sort of skill, but not necessarily 'more' skill. But am I missing something in thinking that a 4v4 in SC2 would take more individual skill AND teamwork-related skill than a 1v1?

A match where IdrA, InControl, Machine, and DeMuslim played against HerO, Ret, Jinro, and TLO would require insane amounts of team strategizing/communication, coordinating pushes, coordinating build orders (maybe two players for each team would go heavy gas while the others didn't, etc.), coordinating units between races (figuring out which P units go well with Z units against an opposing team of T players, etc.); all of the metagame stuff from 1v1 would be even more insanely complex in 4v4, and would require even more skill, if developed.

Some might say that SC2 players don't have time to get good at both, they have to choose 1v1 or 4v4. But in Halo (well, only in Halo 2, when MLG had FFA/1v1 tournaments), a player had to be good at both; you need to learn a whole new set of strategies/skills for 4v4, and play in an FFA/1v1 and 4v4 tournament on the same weekend (usually the FFA/1v1 was on Friday). Obviously an FPS shooter has a lower skill ceiling than SC2, but why couldn't players do this for SC2?

Anyway, obviously this will never happen, lol ... but I'm just curious if I'm missing something. Would 4v4s in SC2 take more skill, or not? Like if maps were bigger, etc?




edit: ... so it turns out that SC2 is balanced around 1v1 and is not meant to be played seriously in 4v4. Is the problem that it's impossible to balance in 4v4? i.e., there are too many factors to control, and it's impossible to avoid imbalance? Or could there be a way to fix 4v4 (larger maps? ...) to make it more balanced? In a perfect world, if 4v4 could be balanced as equally as 1v1, would people consider this to require more skill?


zyglrox
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1168 Posts
December 22 2011 20:11 GMT
#2
must be troll

User was warned for this post
champagne for my real friends, and real pain for my sham friends.
jtp118
Profile Joined November 2010
United States137 Posts
December 22 2011 20:12 GMT
#3
uh oh lol, i'm not trolling ... does the community have a settled opinion on this that i'm not aware of?
TheSwamp
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1497 Posts
December 22 2011 20:13 GMT
#4
LOL
MLG: How is your Protoss? Idra: I make Blink Stalkers, so really, really good.
ishyishy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
December 22 2011 20:13 GMT
#5
What is the purpose of this thread? This has to be another troll thread. Have you watched the 2v2 tournaments? You rarely see either team make a second base. Try watching some pro team games before you go theorizing about this nonsense.
Zazzles
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Slovakia153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 20:14:15
December 22 2011 20:13 GMT
#6
4v4 is just for fun and certainly 1v1 takes a lot more skill than 4v4
"Fortune favors the bold"
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
December 22 2011 20:14 GMT
#7
o_O

Uh, have you tried playing 4v4's before? They are way too volatile and luck based. SC2 was designed to be a 1v1 game, the developers have said this themselves
Jayjay54
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2296 Posts
December 22 2011 20:14 GMT
#8
are we really discussing this?

the discussion should be: which is more fun?
Things are laid back in Unidenland. And may the road ahead be lid with dreams and tomorrows. Which are lid with dreams. Also.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
December 22 2011 20:15 GMT
#9
No, there are certain combinations of units that just become to powerful to NOT use them, I'm pretty sure the meta game would would not be as full, and result in the same powerful rushes over and over.

Also, you must be new =p.
blaaaaaarghhhhh
Moosy
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada396 Posts
December 22 2011 20:15 GMT
#10
The 1v1 metagame is infinitely more developed. As such it is far more skill-requiring than 4v4. The opposite is true in fps games such as halo and cod.
Ahrun
Profile Joined July 2011
United States100 Posts
December 22 2011 20:16 GMT
#11
Uh, if the game was balanced around 4v4 then sure it could, but right now you can just do a cheesy early build or an imbalanced unit combo collosus, marine, infestor, or something like that and just win. It works in halo cause everyone can get the same weapons, same vehicles etc, not in sc2. No it does not atm.
Hit them, if they don't die hit em again and again and again. - Zerg Swarm training school
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
December 22 2011 20:16 GMT
#12
the game isn't balanced at 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4...so it doesn't take more skill. it would come down to who can abuse the most imbalances
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16978 Posts
December 22 2011 20:16 GMT
#13
As it turns out, Starcraft isn't Halo.
Moderator
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 20:18:20
December 22 2011 20:17 GMT
#14
In general for SC2, aggression is exponentially more powerful in team games than 1vs1, and this "waters" the game down, reducing the number of viable strategies. It becomes worse as you move from 2vs2 to 3vs3 or 4vs4.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 20:18:13
December 22 2011 20:17 GMT
#15
On December 23 2011 05:12 jtp118 wrote:
uh oh lol, i'm not trolling ... does the community have a settled opinion on this that i'm not aware of?

To put it in a nutshell.
Starcraft 2 is balanced around 1v1 and 4v4 is just goofing around and nowhere near a competetive level.
Hawk2
Profile Joined August 2010
United States229 Posts
December 22 2011 20:19 GMT
#16
4vs4 lacks any flow to the game that 1vs1 has. team games are in general about getting map control, then retaining map control so your team may force a 4vs1 fight at any point in time.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44185 Posts
December 22 2011 20:19 GMT
#17
Team match-ups aren't balanced, require far less skill, are almost never played professionally, and have far fewer tournaments.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
December 22 2011 20:19 GMT
#18
Isn't some matchups in 4vs4 insanely imbalanced?
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
Mrvoodoochild1
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1439 Posts
December 22 2011 20:19 GMT
#19
Troll? Multiplayer is just a huge cheesefest. It is very rare that anyone puts down an expansion. 1v1 will always be the more skillful game bceause there is no one else to cover up your flaws.
"let your freak flag fly"
jemag
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada98 Posts
December 22 2011 20:19 GMT
#20
Starcraft 2 is created and balanced around 1vs1, it would not even make sense to have high level 4vs4
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