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Hello terran players!
I've played quite a lot TvTs lately and recognized that nobody is playing hellion, tank anymore. Since the hellion nerf the damage of hellions isn't that big but i wonder how marines can be the counter to bf hellions. In my opinion the hellion is the better choice for the midgame because they're the better harass unit. In a TvT lategame i usually stop producing hellions and sacrifice my hellions to start bc production. Marines on the other side aren't that useful in the lategame, because they're just horrible against bcs and tanks.
What do you think about the current state of TvT?
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United States8476 Posts
Hellion tank aka mech is still common at high levels. Also, you add in a lot of marauders when you go biomech against mech.
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People still mech, and it's still very good against bio mech being marine tank, no marauders. It's a cyclical flow in TvT in my mind, this may or may not be true.
Bio (mara marine) > Full mech
Full mech > marine tank
Marine tank > bio
Marines do not get bad late game. Marines never get bad in TvT, even against BCs they can force them to be defensive, and not offensive. Not to mention it's so rare the BC transition... It's the slow tank lines that make marines ineffective.
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On November 21 2011 00:20 aXel92 wrote:
Hello terran players!
I've played quite a lot TvTs lately and recognized that nobody is playing hellion, tank anymore. Since the hellion nerf the damage of hellions isn't that big but i wonder how marines can be the counter to bf hellions. In my opinion the hellion is the better choice for the midgame because they're the better harass unit. In a TvT lategame i usually stop producing hellions and sacrifice my hellions to start bc production. Marines on the other side aren't that useful in the lategame, because they're just horrible against bcs and tanks.
What do you think about the current state of TvT?
The reason a lot of players stopped playing it is because they were actually noobs at mech style or posers of the mech style that solely relied on hellion runbys to make their "mech" work. aka they only copied people that had recently started to copy the true mech players that were doing it forever ago, and so they just relied on killing workers.
The best mech players can actually play a macro game with mech, and not soley rely on hellion harrass which a lot of people can shut down anyways.
Although, besides the "mech posers" that only jumped on board because of blueflame vs workers, it legitimately now is a bit harder to play mech against "easy mode" bio styles because the blue flame nerf really shafted hellion vs marine engagements.
Situations pre-patch where you would be able to kill marines, now suddenly the marines come out with barely any scratches, so you have to be even 10x more careful as the meching player on when you decide to engage with hellions vs marines/marauders.
A lot of people still play mech though...the best TvTers do...
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On November 21 2011 00:55 iAmJeffReY wrote:
People still mech, and it's still very good against bio mech being marine tank, no marauders. It's a cyclical flow in TvT in my mind, this may or may not be true.
Bio (mara marine) > Full mech
Full mech > marine tank
Marine tank > bio
Marines do not get bad late game. Marines never get bad in TvT, even against BCs they can force them to be defensive, and not offensive. Not to mention it's so rare the BC transition... It's the slow tank lines that make marines ineffective.
I also view in the same way. The strength of bio is in it's mobility. With marine-tank you take away that strength because you'll also have a ton of upgraded marines that are equally mobile, versus just having hellions that bio with medivacs healing lol at. The bio player needs maruders to not just die to your tanks and stim marines beat maruders so your really heavy marine army with tanks to zone space can come out ahead. Also, you don't need to maintain air control if the other player doesn't have his own tanks so you can build as many medivacs as the other player.
When you have marine-tank vs full mech, the mech player is likely to have air control because he doesn't need medivacs, so it's harder for you to win your tank wars without using all your scans. So you have the same army, except the other player has hellions that can do decent economic harass as the map gets more spread out, air control, and can add on a few bcs probably too with his air control (with tank cover your marines can't touch them). You can run around groups of marines but it's not the same as running around with a big ball of marine-maruders, just because maruders do so much damage to buildings and really can't be dealt with by pulling hellions back, while marines can be to some extent.
And mech vs bio has all the mobility issues for the meching player, basically being unable to move out until about 180 supply with a few ravens.
I wouldn't say any one style is better, it depends a lot on what the other player is doing and on the layout of the map (not just the size). I personally like to go marine-tank just because I hate going mech and dieing to mmm, but if I see my opponent going marine-tank I like to transition to full mech.
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Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future.
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On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future.
Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings..
Marines > hellions late game.
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On November 21 2011 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future. Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings.. Marines > hellions late game.
But a smart meching player will have REALLY good turret rings for drop defense because the only two ways you can lose when meching is getting caught unseiged, or base racing after a drop.
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On November 21 2011 02:36 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future. Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings.. Marines > hellions late game. But a smart meching player will have REALLY good turret rings for drop defense because the only two ways you can lose when meching is getting caught unseiged, or base racing after a drop.
Thats so untrue, as I said, biomech players can have plenty of tanks too, and ghosts can completely change the way TvT is played today.
Investing 4000 in turrets isnt great...try to put up an invincible turret ring in shak plat for example, and even if you do, you can still drop below the cliff, kill the turrets and then drop. Its not as cut and dry as you make it seem.
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On November 21 2011 02:45 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:36 mizU wrote:On November 21 2011 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future. Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings.. Marines > hellions late game. But a smart meching player will have REALLY good turret rings for drop defense because the only two ways you can lose when meching is getting caught unseiged, or base racing after a drop. Thats so untrue, as I said, biomech players can have plenty of tanks too, and ghosts can completely change the way TvT is played today. Investing 4000 in turrets isnt great...try to put up an invincible turret ring in shak plat for example, and even if you do, you can still drop below the cliff, kill the turrets and then drop. Its not as cut and dry as you make it seem.
You don't need 4000 turrets. You just need enough so it's not cost-efficient or attractive for them to drop. Even then with 1 sensor tower and sufficient vikings, drops are shut down.
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On November 21 2011 02:45 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:36 mizU wrote:On November 21 2011 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future. Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings.. Marines > hellions late game. But a smart meching player will have REALLY good turret rings for drop defense because the only two ways you can lose when meching is getting caught unseiged, or base racing after a drop. Thats so untrue, as I said, biomech players can have plenty of tanks too, and ghosts can completely change the way TvT is played today. Investing 4000 in turrets isnt great...try to put up an invincible turret ring in shak plat for example, and even if you do, you can still drop below the cliff, kill the turrets and then drop. Its not as cut and dry as you make it seem.
You haven't seen my TvT have you lmao.
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I Love pure mech in TvT i think hellions can give you a fair amount of control with drops and such. But one thing that i really think is required for mech are sensor towers. They're amazing and give me enough time to get my hellions somewhere to defend a drop and maybe some tanks if its big drop. I think if mech is done correctly its unbeatable
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United States8476 Posts
On November 21 2011 03:07 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:45 statikg wrote:On November 21 2011 02:36 mizU wrote:On November 21 2011 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future. Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings.. Marines > hellions late game. But a smart meching player will have REALLY good turret rings for drop defense because the only two ways you can lose when meching is getting caught unseiged, or base racing after a drop. Thats so untrue, as I said, biomech players can have plenty of tanks too, and ghosts can completely change the way TvT is played today. Investing 4000 in turrets isnt great...try to put up an invincible turret ring in shak plat for example, and even if you do, you can still drop below the cliff, kill the turrets and then drop. Its not as cut and dry as you make it seem. You haven't seen my TvT have you lmao.
^.~
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i feel that bio has made an appearance in the latest tvts but mech is very solid idk what style to use myself i like to try to counter my opponents
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On November 21 2011 02:36 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 02:15 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 21 2011 02:13 statikg wrote:
Its my opinion that biomech is better then full mech. 3-3 Marines are so much more versatile then hellions and they are just way better in fights. Its true that a full mech player often has more tanks, but this is not some sort of rule, a biomech player can also play tank heavy, although you have to give up a few to pay for upgrades for marines. More then a fair trade IMO.
The way to deal with full mech is to get ghosts. Meching players depend really heavily on good positioning and if you can force them out of their positions with ghosts then they are screwed and you can stim in your marines and do damage in some situations. I expect to see ghost play increase in TvT in the future. Preach it. 16 marines 3/3 and 2 medics dropped in a base can take out a LOT of marines... a lot. A whole base, tanks, scvs, depots, buildings.. Marines > hellions late game. But a smart meching player will have REALLY good turret rings for drop defense because the only two ways you can lose when meching is getting caught unseiged, or base racing after a drop.
imo i think the future of bio vs mech is in reaper harras in mid game
no matter how many turrets he has you can go in snipe buildings and run away
reaper are damm fast with nitro packs
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Before u say marines are horrible vs BC's, I've actually heard quoted quite a few times that 6 marines, unstimmed, beat a BC.
I haven't checked it, coz I don't play terran, but... Heard it from a terran 
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I usually try to build a bc, viking, tank army. if you dont waste your bc but position your tanks perfectly, the marines of your opponent will run i a tank line. furthermore you should put some ravens in the mix for hunter seeker missiles and pdds.
By the way, reapers kinda suck against bf hellions.
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BCs are a waste of money. i go quick expo into triple factory tanks and hellions and get thors later when i have a third. double armory going is great for mech and when you get the armor upgrades for thors they are actually extremely cost efficient vs BCs Pure mech beats viking bc if you have good upgrades
Before u say marines are horrible vs BC's, I've actually heard quoted quite a few times that 6 marines, unstimmed, beat a BC.
I haven't checked it, coz I don't play terran, but... Heard it from a terran
although this is definitely not true. BCs are very powerful vs marines due to their very high armor
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On November 21 2011 05:20 TheEconomist wrote:Before u say marines are horrible vs BC's, I've actually heard quoted quite a few times that 6 marines, unstimmed, beat a BC. I haven't checked it, coz I don't play terran, but... Heard it from a terran
Nah 3/3 BCs have insane armor (6 I believe). And BCs don't come into play before that.
0/0 BCs actually take 3 damage per marine shot and can (should) be repaired...
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EPT
