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[G] PvZ: enter the 10-gate !

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-28 11:24:31
October 27 2011 15:04 GMT
#1
Introduction:

Hi Everybody. I'm Nyast, a mid-master's Protoss player, and today I want to share with you a build that I've been practicing and that has given me a fair number of wins in the past 2 months. I have a win/loss ratio of around 60% with it, and when I lose it's usually due to an execution problem or to my inability to scout and adapt to what the opponent is doing, not to an inherent flaw with the build.

Many players have probably done it or a variation of it in the past months, so I do not claim that it's 100% original, however I haven't met any player on ladder, on streams or in tournaments execute it, so it's certainly not mainstream or popular right now.

The goal:

Like any Protoss, you've probably played a decent number of forge-first fast expands builds. And like any Protoss, you've found that although you were pretty safe in the early game, you were unable to punish a Zerg from taking a fast third and then flooding you with mass units in the mid game. Zerg's macro quickly becomes unstoppable if he knows what he's doing. A quick stargate is one way to put some pressure back but even that can quickly be stopped by a Zerg that knows how to scout or drops a couple of spores..

Enter the 10 gate ! The goal of the 10-gate is to punish greedy Zergs and to enter the mid-game with a strong economic/macro advantage. You are going to sacrifice a little bit of your early economy to put some ultra fast pressure on the Zerg, expand as fast ( and often faster ) than he does, while being safe and teching quickly.

Most of the time, this build immediately outright kills any hatch-first build. Against a 14+ pool first, you can delay his hatchery by a minute or two compared to your nexus ( and if you feel like playing cheesy, you will even be able to set up a contain ). You will be relatively safe against any cheese ( fast pools )..

[image loading]
Mid-game, 12 more probes, a B3 faster than his. How does it feel to be in a Zerg's shoes ?

Build order, the early game:

The build order is simple but the execution and the timings have to be perfect. You're going to need more than a dozen games before it "feels" right. There are tons of possible variations around this build, but I only use two of them, which I find particularly strong. Those two variations start the same and change based on whether you're going to scout a hatch or a pool first.

The common part:

+ Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon (at your natural), scout
10 Gate (chrono 2 times your nexus for probes afterwards)
14 Pylon (at your natural if he hatched first or you didn't scout him yet; at his natural in other cases)
15 Zealot (chrono boosted), send to his natural asap


Versus a hatch-first:

+ Show Spoiler +
17 Forge
17 Zealot (chrono boosted, rallied to first zealot)
19 Pylon (at his natural)
20 Canon x2 (at his natural)
22 Nexus
22 Canon (at your natural), in defense
22 Cybernetics core, close full wall


Versus a pool-first:

+ Show Spoiler +
18 Zealot (chrono boosted, rallied to first zealot)
20 Forge
22 Nexus
22 Canon (at your natural)
24 Pylon (this normally compensates for the loss of your 2nd pylon at his natural)
25 Cybernetics core, close full wall
26 Pylon
28 Canon (at your natural)


Keep building probes as long as you have money, but never prioritize them over zealots/pylons/forge production. Stop building probes around 19-20, accumulate minerals for canons and/or the nexus. Resume probes production ( chrono boosted ) after you've successfully set up a contain or closed the wall at your natural.

After the wall is finished, I usually get the 2 gas in my main immediately, research warp, chrono a sentry and drop a stargate or two. Then I quickly produce a voidray to help defending all-ins. If the all-in doesn't come, I'll continue producing voidrays and phoenix and harass his B3. More about this stage in the next sections.

Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +
Against a 14+ pool, you can also attempt a canon rush ( along with your 2 zealots ). This is usually unsuccessful if the Zerg has scouted your zealots with a drone or an overlord and over-produces zerglings. If he produces few zerglings ( <= 10 ), you can attempt a canon rush. I don't do it since it's a bit cheesy, and the goal of this build is to enter the mid-game with an economic advantage in a macro game, not to kill your opponent immediately ( unless he's doing a greedy hatch first ). However you should be aware that if you fail that canon rush, you will most likely fall behind.


Notes and timings:

Versus fast-pool/cheese:

+ Show Spoiler +
The build is relatively safe versus a fast pool cheese. I've even successfully hold some 6-pools in close pos. Take half of your probes before (this is key) the zerglings arrive at your natural. Drop a second pylon at your natural. Chrono your zealots. Try to form a little choke with only enough room for 1 zealot in hold-position. As you micro your probes and zealots, chrono a second zealot and drop a forge. Make a canon asap, and when the canon is up, save your minerals and drop a nexus. Proceed with the rest of the build like it was a normal game, and don't worry: even if you lose 6-7 probes, you still have the advantage.

On some maps like Tal'D'arim, some Zergs attempt 6-pools in the hopes that the Protoss will go nexus or forge at 15. They bypass the canon and go harass the main. This build is really good in this scenario, as the map is huge, and you'll have a zealot out before his zerglings arrive. Zerg's reactions when they realize their 6-pool has no chance of passing is priceless.. most simply gg and quit, but one time a Zerg told me: "wtf, never seen such an early gate on that map.."


Handling the canon rush:

+ Show Spoiler +

When you attempt to punish a hatch-first ( this happens in ~40% of my games, as most maps in the pool are 2v2s, a lot of Zergs feel safe by going hatch first ! ), your second pylon should go down near his natural around 3'30. It doesn't matter if he scouts it, or has an overlord on top of it. Your forge should be completing soon, and your first zealot is almost here. Zergs are used to defending canon rushes by pulling out half their drones, but here with your zealot it doesn't work. When the first lings appear, micro your zealot around, do not engage if he has more than 4 zerglings ! Make him run in circles, he doesn't have speed yet. If his lings attack the pylon, attack the lings, then retreat when he engages.. rinse and repeat. Retreat between mineral patches in hold position. Snipe the queen if there are few lings and he sends his queen, it'll be off creep. Retreat hurt zealots away for a while, wait til shields recharge, and reengage. Buy some time for the canons to go up !


[image loading]
Greedy Zergs must be punished: you will have 2 zealots, 2 probes and 2+ canons going up, think of how many lings you need to defend that..

Zerg's responses:

Scenario 1: you succesfully set up a contain with canons

Don't get excited too quickly: there's a timing where a Zerg can all-in you, and you don't have your tech yet. I've lost a fair number of games due to feeling too confident at this stage, so get ready to feel the desperation of a Zerg ! However as you experience the build, you'll become better at holding those all-ins. The key here is to scout him regularly with your remaining probes/zealots and see what he's teching to. Try to see if he makes a second hatchery in-base, took some gas, and fast techs to lair. Check his units, do you see some roaches ? Does he have speedlings yet ? All those hints will be critical in preparing against his response..

- zerglings/bannelings (hints: quick gas, no lair, no roaches, 2nd hatch in base, tons of speedlings..):

+ Show Spoiler +
He will attempt to bypass your canons, morph into bannelings in front of your entrance, and hit you before you can have too many sentries. The key here is to reinforce your wall with more gates, chrono sentries, chrono the warp and drop 5-6 canons.. don't be afraid to go overboard, you're on two bases, he cannot compete economically so if you survive you'll be in good shape !


- roaches (hints: few zerglings, roach warren):

+ Show Spoiler +
The good news is that he'll have to deal with your canons at his natural first. As soon as you see roaches attacking your canons at his natural, drop 5-6 canons at your wall, chrono your warp/sentries, chrono your first voidray. It shouldn't be too hard to resist, and as soon as your voidray is done, he's extremely far behind.. just play safe from now on, harass with your air, take a third, tech to colossi.. and you should have no trouble in the mid/end game.


- nydus (hints: fast lair):

+ Show Spoiler +
Spread pylons in your main, around the cliffs. Remember where his overlords come from, that's the most likely spot for a nydus. If he still hasn't busted your contain at his natural by 7', it's very likely to be a nydus. Check the mini-map very often. If he successfully spawns a nydus in your main, you can only hope that your voidray is not too late, as you won't have enough gate units to hold. As soon as you see the nydus, don't hesitate to take 8 probes and surround it !


- exotic stuff (hints: fast lair?):

+ Show Spoiler +
Once somebody went fast mutas on 1 base. Another one made a nydus.. in another corner of the map, to bypass my contain and expand. So far none of those responses have worked against me, as I have a quick stargate or two, so I have map control and can easily harass.


- roaches/lings bust and double-expo:

+ Show Spoiler +
While most of the Zergs tend to go all-in when they're behind, a few of them will still attempt to play a macro game, bust your canons, attempt to poke at your choke and immediately retreat. They'll double-expo and go into mass droning mode. Continue with the build as if it was a standard macro game, go air harass and take a third asap.


[image loading]
The result of a failed all-in. The game is litterally in the bag: I have twice the number of probes, my tech is ready and I'm getting my B3 while he's barely taking his B2

Scenario 2: you delayed his expansion, forced him to produce a lot of zerglings, but did not contain him

+ Show Spoiler +

Most Zergs will attempt a macro game and take a fast third. At this point you should be chrono boosting probes like crazy, you will still hold the economic advantage until 9-10'. See the next section about the build transitions in the mid-game.

One thing I like to do in this scenario is drop a second gate ( sometimes before the cybcore, to complete the wall ), produce 4-6 zealots and make a small push on his likely third. This doesn't delay your air tech too much since it's mostly limited by your gas. The advantage of this small push is that you can either outright kill his third, either it forces him to produce a lot of lings, but this also allows you to scout what he's doing. If you see roaches, drop a couple more canons at your natural and retreat, do not lose the zealots, and chrono your voidray.


The mid-game:

We're now into the mid-game, and he's not all-inning you ( or he already did and failed ). Your first voidray is out, you have a couple canons in your natural, you are safe. You're still equal or in front of him economically, but if he took a fast third, he's soon going to take the lead ! The goal now is to keep that advantage.

If he did not all-in you at all, drop a second stargate. Chrono voidrays until you have 3-4 of them, then continue to produce phoenixes ( all chrono boosted ) with a rally point. Go harass his third with your voidrays: the goal here is to pressure him, force a ton of queens and spores. If you see a lot of queens and spores at his third when you arrive ( for example because he had an overseer and saw your stargates earlier ), harass the main. Lift and snipe the queens, delay him as much as possible, and don't forget to check his tech path !

Most of the time, a good Zerg will successfully defend your harass. You should then use the voidrays to prevent creep spread, hold the Xel'naga towers and snipe as many overlords as you can. Use the phoenixes to regularly scout his army composition and tech path.

There are many transitions possible out of this build in the mid-game, I'll quickly mention a couple of them:

Mass gates play:

+ Show Spoiler +

Drop a twilight while you're preparing your voidrays, add some more gates ( 6-8 ), research blink, upgrades at the forge. When you start to move for your harass, destroy a canon or a gate at your natural, warp in some sentries/zealots/stalkers, take your B3, put a pylon and some canons. Normally he'll be too busy with your harass to prevent your B3, but beware of the response as soon as he scouts your third, he will most likely go all-in, produce a ton of lings/roaches/hydras and attempt to kill it. Spawn as many gate units as possible, micro, force-fields..


If you scouted: mass lings and probable mutas:

+ Show Spoiler +

If you already have two stargates ( that's what I usually do with this build when the Zerg plays a macro game ), drop a third stargate. Chrono phoenixes. Produce many gates, tons of zealots, some canons to defend your minerals lines and take your third expansion when you can.

If you only had one stargate, go mass gates play with blink, add some templars/archons and.. try to survive..


Double-stargate double-robo:

+ Show Spoiler +

I usually do this transition when I see he's teching hydras with my phoenixes when I harass him. I stay on ~3 gates, then I drop 2 robos asap, a robo bay and transition colossi 2-by-2, chrono boosted. I add more gates and produce mass chargelots, and once I feel confident enough, I take my third ( usually around 13-14' ). Upgrades are very important, a second forge may help.


Maps:

This build is particularly good on maps with a choke/ramp at the natural.

It's not good on Xel'naga caverns and on Metalopolis: the natural is too open. I have roughly 50% win/loss ratio when I do the build on those maps. Zerg's all-ins are very hard to defend, as canons cannot cover all the space.

It is decent on Shattered Temple, although a bit more risky than other maps. Get ready to close off your wall before you drop your nexus at 22 !

On Antiga Shipyards, your second pylon should be at your natural in all cases, whether he hatch or pool firsts. That's because it's not possible to completely close off your wall without a second pylon, the range isn't high enough.

Summary:

The goal of this build is to put pressure on the Zerg 2-3 times before the mid-game.

1. Early 2 zealots pressure (with a canon rush if he hatch-firsts).

2. [optional] More zealots pressure, 4-6 zealots from double-gates, especially if your early zealot pressure didn't do much. Try to kill his third, or at least scout what he's doing.

3. Air harass from one or two stargates ( one if he all-ins, two if he plays a macro game ). Forces him to produce queens, spores, overlords.. sometimes you can even snipe his B3 or his main.

When you do this right, you'll be in the mid-game with an economic advantage and the same number of expansions ( or if you really outplayed him in the early game, you can have an advance in expo count.. ). You will have map control thanks to your air, you can easily scout him and react to what he's doing. Congrats !

Replays:

Vs Hatch first:

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Vs Pool first:

+ Show Spoiler +

7 pool:
[image loading]

Another 7-pool with mass lings and nydus attempt, transition into hydras:
[image loading]

10 pool:
[image loading]

14 pool 15 gas:
[image loading]

11 pool 19 gas:
[image loading]

13 pool into roaches (this is an example of containment vs pool 1st, the variation I described above..):
[image loading]

ma70
Profile Joined October 2010
253 Posts
October 27 2011 15:05 GMT
#2
I immediately opened this thread when I saw it because I've been doing the same style of build for awhile now, although I've been inconsistent/inactive so I've been deranked to high diamond. Will read the guide more later!
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
October 27 2011 15:16 GMT
#3
I feel like 10gate doesn't do enough damage to justify the economy sacrifice, and like the 2gate follow-up it can put you significantly behind if the zerg scouts well. If you do a zealot pressure your tech is very late so I agree on going for stargate into blink because you can't get enough colossi out anyways. You don't really have the ability to take a fast third so it's best to try and do some serious damage with air + blink/sentry (like naniwa did at blizzcon). I do love how sick air+gateway can be, but it's a little too dependant on early/midgame damage imo.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
October 27 2011 15:18 GMT
#4
As Zerg, it pains me to say that I like this thread...


lol
zachMEISTER
Profile Joined December 2010
United States625 Posts
October 27 2011 15:31 GMT
#5
Great read. Appears quite effective.

*commences yabot*
psillypsybic!
Ralethon
Profile Joined July 2011
United States141 Posts
October 27 2011 15:35 GMT
#6
How far behind are you if you fail to stop the fast hatch and lose the zealots probes and pylon?
jhk0219
Profile Joined March 2011
United States189 Posts
October 27 2011 15:36 GMT
#7
I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. As a zerg, it sounds like you're almost betting on someone playing hatch-first, which might be okay since so many maps are 2v2. I've played against this opening 6-8 times before, and I haven't lost a single time.

If you assume that the zerg goes 14/14 (safer build), 2 zealot pressure isn't really new, and it's easily dealt with if the zerg micros queen + ling + drone. From there you just transition into regular 2 base protoss with options to do whatever you want. You're almost certainly going to lose the two zealots, and start out behind. This gives zerg freedom to macro up even harder. Why not just open regular 13 gate and save yourself the 200 minerals + chronoboosts?

2 stargate is tough to deal with, but only if the zerg doesn't scout it (which means he deserves to lose, anyway). Like you said, most good zergs will defend it with relatively minimal loss. If you're chronoing 4 void rays + phoenixes, and you don't do some SIGNIFICANT damage to justify it, there is no way you can defend the "zerg all-in." I don't see how the 2-robo, 2-stargate transition can work out, since you'll have almost no ground support (besides maybe some zealots. I doubt you'll have charge because that is A LOT OF GAS). Regular hydra roach can probably devour this, unless you can somehow get 3 bases going without the zerg noticing it at all.

I think it's a creative build, but it really capitalizes on the zerg's mistakes and feels a bit all-inish to me. The eco-sacrifice makes it so that you HAVE to do enough damage to me, or I just roll you over in mid-game with basically any composition (ling/roach, roach/hydra, roach/infestor, ling/bling/infestor, muta transtiion...... the list goes on). I just don't think a player is ever in a good position if he MUST do damage to get even or gain advantage
Lordcamel
Profile Joined August 2010
17 Posts
October 27 2011 15:42 GMT
#8
Nice guide I'll try it asap
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
October 27 2011 15:43 GMT
#9
Seems to be pretty interesting I like the build it does sound a little odd I can see this punishing hatch first though not to sure on long rush distance maps how it will feel with the 2 zealot pressure but I guess if your cannon rushing at the same time it gets tricky.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
chtiungdor
Profile Joined October 2011
France1 Post
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 15:50:04
October 27 2011 15:46 GMT
#10
Thanks to Nyast I often use this build from bronze to diamond, and the 2 stargates/2 robotics transition is very effective when zerg's player do mass hydralisk or spore...! I got a good ratio in PvZ although this isn't a perfect build as people said.
The harder is to survive at the begining if the zerg's player goes all-in...
Lordcamel
Profile Joined August 2010
17 Posts
October 27 2011 15:48 GMT
#11
On October 28 2011 00:36 jhk0219 wrote:
I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. As a zerg, it sounds like you're almost betting on someone playing hatch-first, which might be okay since so many maps are 2v2. I've played against this opening 6-8 times before, and I haven't lost a single time.

If you assume that the zerg goes 14/14 (safer build), 2 zealot pressure isn't really new, and it's easily dealt with if the zerg micros queen + ling + drone.


OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.

I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?
Bambedibu
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 15:58:36
October 27 2011 15:57 GMT
#12
Is this build viable vs 1base roach w/ proxy hatch?
Any experiences with that?
Avan
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil121 Posts
October 27 2011 18:01 GMT
#13
FINALLY! I LOVE YOU! \o/

I cannot beat Zergs currently. My W/L ratio vs Z is about 10% right now. Thank you! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! <3333
"I have never tasted Death, Zeratul. Nor shall I". Liquid'HerO FIGHTING!
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 18:06:35
October 27 2011 18:05 GMT
#14
--- Nuked ---
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 18:20:31
October 27 2011 18:16 GMT
#15
You are all in and autolose vs 12-13 pool I think, I always 13 pool and have met this twice = easy free wins. Won't delay hatch and keep losing units to slow lings with minimum micro.

You are going all in hoping to delay hatch with this build and if you don't - you lose.
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
October 27 2011 18:19 GMT
#16
On October 28 2011 00:48 Lordcamel wrote:
OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.

I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?


Yeah, that's pretty much correct.

It's relativement safe from cheese, it punishes a hatch first even on Tal'D'arim when scouted in last position, and against a "standard" 14 pool+, you pay 200 ( 2 zealots ) to delay his hatchery up to 5'30-6' ( while yours is already in progress ).

In the event he mass produces lings and forces you to wall off before dropping a nexus, well.. he produced a lot of lings early game, so that should at least "pay" for the cost of the 2 zealots and slightly delayed eco.
jhk0219
Profile Joined March 2011
United States189 Posts
October 27 2011 18:40 GMT
#17
On October 28 2011 00:48 Lordcamel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2011 00:36 jhk0219 wrote:
I don't see any inherent advantage of this build over the most common 13gate opening. As a zerg, it sounds like you're almost betting on someone playing hatch-first, which might be okay since so many maps are 2v2. I've played against this opening 6-8 times before, and I haven't lost a single time.

If you assume that the zerg goes 14/14 (safer build), 2 zealot pressure isn't really new, and it's easily dealt with if the zerg micros queen + ling + drone.


OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.

I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?


Did you tl;dr my entire post? Please actually read before you try to criticize what I said.

I said this would be effective against a hatch-first build. I said that off the start. I was pointing out that I don't see the advantage of 10-gate when the zerg is doing 14/14.

RaveBomb
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada33 Posts
October 27 2011 18:41 GMT
#18
Had this done to me for my season 4 placement match.

Thanks for writing it up. I'm definitely going to be scouting my front a little bit harder to watch for that early pylon and aggression.

11/18 pool hatch is starting to look better and better then the 15/16 hatch/pool I've been doing.
I am more a merchant then I am a soldier, but the choice is not always mine to make.
jhk0219
Profile Joined March 2011
United States189 Posts
October 27 2011 18:42 GMT
#19
On October 28 2011 03:19 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2011 00:48 Lordcamel wrote:
OP's isn't just pushing with 2 zealots ... the point is to kill a hatch first build thanks to photons being protected by zealots or delay the Hatch and being safe from a 1 base push while expanding.

I don't see why you are comparing to a 13 gate .. ?


Yeah, that's pretty much correct.

It's relativement safe from cheese, it punishes a hatch first even on Tal'D'arim when scouted in last position, and against a "standard" 14 pool+, you pay 200 ( 2 zealots ) to delay his hatchery up to 5'30-6' ( while yours is already in progress ).

In the event he mass produces lings and forces you to wall off before dropping a nexus, well.. he produced a lot of lings early game, so that should at least "pay" for the cost of the 2 zealots and slightly delayed eco.


He doesn't actually need to produce a lot of lings to defend it early game. The reason why zerg players send the initial queen to natural immediately after production of the second one is precisely because of this kind of early pressure. 2 stalker, 1zealot 1 stalker, 2 zealot can all be defended with queen + drone/lings. If the zerg is good with micro, he'll most likely lose maybe 1-2 lings + no drones and come out ahead.
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
October 27 2011 19:29 GMT
#20
On October 28 2011 03:42 jhk0219 wrote:
He doesn't actually need to produce a lot of lings to defend it early game. The reason why zerg players send the initial queen to natural immediately after production of the second one is precisely because of this kind of early pressure. 2 stalker, 1zealot 1 stalker, 2 zealot can all be defended with queen + drone/lings. If the zerg is good with micro, he'll most likely lose maybe 1-2 lings + no drones and come out ahead.


Oh sure, I'm not disputing the fact that a Zerg can defend it. In fact, there's no way a Zerg cannot defend it. The whole point of the rush is to delay his hatchery and force him to produce zerglings instead of drones. Now imagine the situation: there's a pylon in his natural and 2 zealots are incoming.

He doesn't have speed yet.

How long can you delay the hatchery with zealots micro, until he has too many lings you can't handle anymore ? Don't forget he has to kill the pylon first, and he's busy with your zealots. If he targets the pylon, you snipe some zerglings. If he attacks your zealots, you pull back and delay your pylon being destroyed.

The goal here is to buy as much time as possible. I can frequently buy a minute or two, which added to the larvae going into zerglings, ensures that I have a slight economic advantage for a while.
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