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Hi TL, I usually win most of my ZvP match ups, but sometimes I lose them and I'm not sure where I went wrong. When I watched the replay after the game I noticed a couple things that I could have improved on such as taking my third as soon as I scouted the FFE, and just general things that will crisp up my build.
A huge problem of mine that I realized lately is that I always have too many minerals, WAYYYY too many minerals, I always get 1 to 2 macro hatches in ZvT and other than that I just make lings and keep expanding to spend my minerals. In ZvP this is usually a different story as my general go to unit comp is Roach/Infestor/Broodlord (even after 1.4 I have been still doing well with infestors up to this game.)
Another thing I wanted to add relates to general ZvP game play. Usually what I do is work to get full saturation on my 2 bases while scouting for aggressive plays or harass (such as stargate play, 4 gate, 6/7 gate push etc..) and making units if needed. Once I have my two bases saturated I try to take my third and begin making units. I generally start my lair around 7 minutes and take 2 more gas geysers then get the fourth one moments later, as soon as my lair pops I get my infestation pit and two evo chambers, then start upgrades (got my evo chamber early in this particular replay because I still hadn't scouted him and was nervous about stargate play.)
I then make it my goal in ZvP to get maxed as fast as possible on roach/infestor with lings thrown in if I am running low on gas but high on mins and larvae. I constantly scout for the protoss third as once he takes his third I know he will max out soon which is very bad for me. Once I start my 2/2 I get hive tech and throw down a spire attempting to get broodlords out on the field. Any comments on my play style are greatly appreciated, this is pretty much how I play a straight up ZvP, but of course I could be missing something as I have never been told otherwise.
I will provide the replay of course, feel free to give any commentary on things you don't like/ anything I can improve on. Again, your constructive criticism is greatly appreciated, thanks!
Replay:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=235966#/replay_overview
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Is your money problem in lategame or midgame?
Althought I can't watch the replay right now, a good thing to do to spend money lategame in ZvP, assuming you have good creep spread, is to throw down a lot of spines in the middle of the map. It gives you more supply to get units (esp. broodlords), slows down any protoss pushes and makes broodlords very very effective, if you have them over your spine forest.
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one thing that I've seen some players do, such as Sen and Dimaga, is to keep making drones and build spinecrawlers nonstop when they are floating minerals. You see them put down 15 spine crawlers and think they are freeing up supply... then they replace those drones. this lets you seriously slow down protoss pushes while you are getting broodlords and things.
one thing that I almost never see pro players do, but I don't understand why, is to turn your minerals into zerglings, and drop them in your enemy's base. do that while posturing aggression towards his 3rd base and he is bound to take damage in one location or the other.
in order to do that, you need more hatches, which you can afford if you are floating minerals.
You can do this repeatedly and the lings are never really taking up army supply because you immediately get rid of them to replace them, and your opponent also has to commit supply to deal with them.
zerglings absolutely tear up buildings, he can't ignore it. He will warp in zealots to try to deal with it, but if you bring enough lings, you can kill the zealots, or maybe you can focus key structures down before you lose the lings (I get a lot of nexus kills, and often robo kills), or you can spread the lings out all over his base so that it takes a long time for his zealots to track down each of the lings, and you can even burrow them for later. You get a lot of pylon/gateway kills this way.
If he brings back his army, or even a part of his army, you have a tactical advantage which you can use to take out expansions, or engage his army in a favourable location.
I think it would have worked wonders in that game since the ramp on that map is positioned in such a stupid way it is hard to defend the entire main from drops without being lightyears away from your 3rd.
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On October 07 2011 17:31 Oboeman wrote:
one thing that I've seen some players do, such as Sen and Dimaga, is to keep making drones and build spinecrawlers nonstop when they are floating minerals. You see them put down 15 spine crawlers and think they are freeing up supply... then they replace those drones. this lets you seriously slow down protoss pushes while you are getting broodlords and things.
one thing that I almost never see pro players do, but I don't understand why, is to turn your minerals into zerglings, and drop them in your enemy's base. do that while posturing aggression towards his 3rd base and he is bound to take damage in one location or the other.
in order to do that, you need more hatches, which you can afford if you are floating minerals.
zerglings absolutely tear up buildings, he can't ignore it. He will warp in zealots to try to deal with it, but if you bring enough lings, you can kill the zealots, or maybe you can focus key structures down before you lose the lings (I get a lot of nexus kills, and often robo kills), or you can spread the lings out all over his base so that it takes a long time for his zealots to track down each of the lings, and you can even burrow them for later. You get a lot of pylon/gateway kills this way.
If he brings back his army, or even a part of his army, you have a tactical advantage which you can use to take out expansions, or engage his army in a favourable location.
I think it would have worked wonders in that game since the ramp on that map is positioned in such a stupid way it is hard to defend the entire main from drops without being lightyears away from your 3rd.
From a zerg perspective, this feels terribly ineffective in terms of energy spent / damage done.
It would be interesting to hear from a Protoss' perspective, and know whether or not these drops are actually doing indirect damage (in warp-ins, time spent protecting against the drop, etc) in addition to whatever buildings they manage to knock down.
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On October 07 2011 17:34 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 17:31 Oboeman wrote:
one thing that I've seen some players do, such as Sen and Dimaga, is to keep making drones and build spinecrawlers nonstop when they are floating minerals. You see them put down 15 spine crawlers and think they are freeing up supply... then they replace those drones. this lets you seriously slow down protoss pushes while you are getting broodlords and things.
one thing that I almost never see pro players do, but I don't understand why, is to turn your minerals into zerglings, and drop them in your enemy's base. do that while posturing aggression towards his 3rd base and he is bound to take damage in one location or the other.
in order to do that, you need more hatches, which you can afford if you are floating minerals.
zerglings absolutely tear up buildings, he can't ignore it. He will warp in zealots to try to deal with it, but if you bring enough lings, you can kill the zealots, or maybe you can focus key structures down before you lose the lings (I get a lot of nexus kills, and often robo kills), or you can spread the lings out all over his base so that it takes a long time for his zealots to track down each of the lings, and you can even burrow them for later. You get a lot of pylon/gateway kills this way.
If he brings back his army, or even a part of his army, you have a tactical advantage which you can use to take out expansions, or engage his army in a favourable location.
I think it would have worked wonders in that game since the ramp on that map is positioned in such a stupid way it is hard to defend the entire main from drops without being lightyears away from your 3rd. From a zerg perspective, this feels terribly ineffective in terms of energy spent / damage done. It would be interesting to hear from a Protoss' perspective, and know whether or not these drops are actually doing indirect damage (in warp-ins, time spent protecting against the drop, etc) in addition to whatever buildings they manage to knock down.
from a zergs perspective, this is incredibly effective, I know this for a fact because this is the way that I harrass my opponent in my games, 20 2/2 zerglings kill buildings fast, and they easily pick off warp-in reinforcements, every time I do it the opponent ends up sending his entire army to defend.
also, 20 2/2 zerglings can kill up to about 5 cannons when left on their own, it is not the kind of attack you can ignore.
also, I quite often manage to pick off the opponents robotics bay before his army has even gotten into his main, and just picking off the robo bay is enough damage to justify the drop, also, unlike terran or protoss you will never ever lose overlords when dropping, because the overlords leaves when they have dropped the zerglings, you do not expect your zerglings to survive
thus its fine to leave with your overlords immiedietly after dropping, thus an investment of 500 minerals is left to do as much damage as it can, if he doesn't warp in units immieditly, I generally get 1 tech building or production facility, 1-2 pylons, and about 5 probes, as well as the most valuable thing: I disrupt his play, if the do warp in a bunch of units, generally kill off the first wave, but do no more damage on his econ or buildings, notice however that I would trade 20 zerglings for 5-8 zealots/stalkers/sentries any day of the week.
in pure minerals its about an even trade, but remember that the dropped zerglings are actually just "excess minerals" you dont need them.
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Is your money problem in lategame or midgame?
Always late game, mid game sometimes I have a little over a thousand but generally that's because I'm saving for my infestor spawn at 30 sec. into the pathogen glands upgrade and I am playing aggressive with my mid game expansions.
one thing that I almost never see pro players do, but I don't understand why, is to turn your minerals into zerglings, and drop them in your enemy's base. do that while posturing aggression towards his 3rd base and he is bound to take damage in one location or the other.
This totally makes sense to drop lings in his main and pull his army back then send roaches/ infested terran drop the third, he is bound to lose vital buildings and if I can stop the third that is seriously huge.
also, 20 2/2 zerglings can kill up to about 5 cannons when left on their own, it is not the kind of attack you can ignore.
I actually never get melee upgrades ever in ZvP, I cant remember the last time I went ling infestor as I almost prefer roaches in the early>mid game. Do you think I should be getting melee upgrades or do you think ling infestor etc.. might be a better unit comp then roach infestor, or is it all personal preference?
Thanks for your replies really appreciate it! =P
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Anyone want to comment on the replay please?
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I watched your replay and your loss was caused by passiveness.
Untill the 11 minute mark, your opponent had litterally 5 units in the field. You cannot let him get away so easily with such a weak wall in. What you simply needed to do is to bust that base in.
My suggestions are roach bling bust and rushed muta play ( he had nothing shooting air before the 13 minutes mark.
Just be mroe aggressive. If you let the protoss reach that deathball, it is very hard to break in. Try and get burrowing claws too. He had forcefields up and you could have gone under them with it.
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Okay thanks that's something I will try in my next zvp
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EPT
