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Quick 3 Base Templar/Immortal
Intro
Alright, so I myself love playing PvZ. It is my favorite match-up and I don't like playing too standard, I pioneer pretty much all my builds, some not as effective as others, but I have fun with them. Lately I've been using a very successful PvZ build that has consistently been beating Top1-Top20 masters (Maybe at 75%). If you are interested in this build keep reading on, or if you have been using this build and have other things to add please share. I want to say this is a new build I've been using so I don't have that many things figured out yet, but I love it so much I wanted to share.
Build Overview
The idea of the build is to do some sort of 2 gas expand. Generally speaking this will be a 3 gate sentry expand, however I prefer to do a 2/3gate + stargate expand (It is delayed by a little bit, but I feel pheonix killing drones, overlords, and sometimes even a queen or two justify it).
Now this is where the build differs from say a regular 3 gate sentry expand into 2 base collosis. You can your robo as you usually would but you don't worry about getting robotics bay. You throw down a forge and start getting upgrades (off one forge) and make several immortals. as well as keep a steady zealot + stalker combo warping in, you will be fine on 3 gases for a long time. The advantage of this composition is that you have a larger army early, and therefore you have the army needed to hold a 3rd base.
Now ideally at the 10:30 minute mark your third will begin to go up - And you will have approximatly 40-45 probes. At this point youll have your obs out and decide what to do from there. If you see lots of roaches, keep chronoing immortals, if the zerg decides to take a third very quickly you will be fine vs any zergling/roach pressure but be ahead because of your three base. You will be fine with 3 warpgates and a robo until your third starts building if you're keeping constant production.
You want to get attack armor attack attack for your upgrades. At the 14ish minute mark when your 1/1 is just finishing youll have your twilight finishing and I am at 6-8 at this point. Still your only units will be zealot + stalker + sentry + immortals but because you have approximatly 60 probes over 3 bases you'll have more stuff than your opponent.
This army is good vs roaches, good vs ling/bling combos... And well the main thing you need to be looking out for is muta tech switches as the army tends to be heavier in zealots + sentry rather than stalker. Zergs obviously wont mass roaches vs that kind of army and that is why they'll tend to go either roach/hydra or tech to broodlord. At the 15 minute mark or so you want to start your templar archives. Depending on your execution you will have a maxed army at 19 minutes or so. Of templar + chargelot + blinkstalker + immortal + sentries from expand and a 3-4 base zerg doesn't have enough stuff to combat such an army, infact there aren't many compositions that fair well against this army. The army composition is great vs so many things.
It destroys (usually):
Roach + Hydra
Zergling + Baneling (A couple archons are a nice touch)
Any ultralisk play
Lategame muta play
Great against any infestor play.
Cons:
Now this is the problem, once I reach the lategame, there isn't really anything that beats me, sometimes two base muta kills me and sometimes zergling + roach all-ins when I have 1 or no immortals.
Now this thread isn't about saying this build doesn't work, maybe at top top GM it doesn't but it's been working for me beautifully. This thread is to show you this build and discuss how to improve it, make it safer to certain tactics, and share what has worked for you. If you have any questions regarding this build (I realise I din't go to super deep detail) feel free to ask and I'll try explaining to the best of my ability.
I have one replay at hand right now (Top 5 Masters), hopefully I'll add more soon, but for now enjoy. I'll be editing up this thread to make it look nicer too, just wanted a base line.
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/1888
PS -Maybe some pros use this build, but I haven't seen it in any tourneys and I wanted to share, so yeah ^_^ Also post 1337 !
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1337 post huh. 1337 much?
3 total replays would be pretty nice. 
I will take a look. Immortals destroy roaches and storm destroys everything else (except ultras). And since archons are so strong now, it matches quite well.
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I've also been trying this build on ladder, where you skip colossus completely, and go with a mostly gateway, but some immortal army. It works pretty well, since a lot of zergs are trying Spanishiwa's build lately, because of the apparent high win-rate using that build. With templars, a few storms or feedbacks can do terrible damage to their army, while also allowing you to reinforce your army by morphing archons.
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<3
The replay says it's from KiwiKaki but I'm guessing you're not him? Just stole his name for some reason?
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On May 19 2011 11:18 Keilah wrote:
<3
The replay says it's from KiwiKaki but I'm guessing you're not him? Just stole his name for some reason?
Different character codes.
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On May 19 2011 11:04 iChau wrote:1337 post huh. 1337 much? 3 total replays would be pretty nice. I will take a look. Immortals destroy roaches and storm destroys everything else (except ultras). And since archons are so strong now, it matches quite well.
I should save my replays, but I'll be playing later tonight so hopefully I will be able to get a few more.
On May 19 2011 11:15 Flameling wrote:
I've also been trying this build on ladder, where you skip colossus completely, and go with a mostly gateway, but some immortal army. It works pretty well, since a lot of zergs are trying Spanishiwa's build lately, because of the apparent high win-rate using that build. With templars, a few storms or feedbacks can do terrible damage to their army, while also allowing you to reinforce your army by morphing archons.
Exactly, people get too far into that mentality than you need collosis. It's a great and fun composition to play and like you said, it's good vs everything as long as you have good control and positioning.
On May 19 2011 11:18 Keilah wrote:
<3
The replay says it's from KiwiKaki but I'm guessing you're not him? Just stole his name for some reason?
Long story, it's me playing, not real Kiwi. Don't let my ID bother you please.
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I've been messing with immortal+HT PvZ for a while and if you can survive to get 3 bases up and running with templar to storm, I feel like it's unbelievably strong. The HT also give you archons later on which are fantastic against most Zerg units. Lately Artosis has been doing this on his stream to decent success. He likes to open with zealot+stalker pressure while expanding, and going fast blink for additional 2-base pressure. I really like this approach because it transitions very smoothly into your lategame composition while allowing you to pressure Zerg. You can even go for a powerful 6/7 gate, 1 robo, +1 attack, blink, observer push that is very hard for Zerg to deal with.
The issue I've had with it is against fast hydra-ling timings/all-ins. I feel like getting storm off 2-bases is just too slow, and it's better to just get colossus if you scout a lot of hydra. Mass chargelots was something I was screwing around with as a response, since they are actually awesome against hydras, but I doubt it's really tenable.
Getting a 3rd is also a bit tough if you're going for immortal stalker off 2-base. Mass lings are really strong for denying and harassing until you do get those HTs up. I've been thinking about whether it's better to just get blink and storm off 2-base before taking a 3rd, at which point you add 1 or 2 robo immortal production.
At the moment I've been opening normally (3-gate sentry expo, move toward colossus, as standard as possible) but based on my hallucination scouting fast infestors, I'll get high templar for feedback and make pure immortal while getting storm and taking a fast 3rd. But if I don't spot infestor play, I'm not totally comfortable just going straight up (blind?) for stalker+immortal+HT.
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On May 19 2011 11:43 GomJabbar wrote:
I've been messing with immortal+HT PvZ for a while and if you can survive to get 3 bases up and running with templar to storm, I feel like it's unbelievably strong. The HT also give you archons later on which are fantastic against most Zerg units. Lately Artosis has been doing this on his stream to decent success. He likes to open with zealot+stalker pressure while expanding, and going fast blink for additional 2-base pressure. I really like this approach because it transitions very smoothly into your lategame composition while allowing you to pressure Zerg. You can even go for a powerful 6/7 gate, 1 robo, +1 attack, blink, observer push that is very hard for Zerg to deal with.
The issue I've had with it is against fast hydra-ling timings/all-ins. I feel like getting storm off 2-bases is just too slow, and it's better to just get colossus if you scout a lot of hydra. Mass chargelots was something I was screwing around with as a response, since they are actually awesome against hydras, but I doubt it's really tenable.
Getting a 3rd is also a bit tough if you're going for immortal stalker off 2-base. Mass lings are really strong for denying and harassing until you do get those HTs up. I've been thinking about whether it's better to just get blink and storm off 2-base before taking a 3rd, at which point you add 1 or 2 robo immortal production.
At the moment I've been opening normally (3-gate sentry expo, move toward colossus, as standard as possible) but based on my hallucination scouting fast infestors, I'll get high templar for feedback and make pure immortal while getting storm and taking a fast 3rd. But if I don't spot infestor play, I'm not totally comfortable just going straight up (blind?) for stalker+immortal+HT.
Well, OP is recommending using a healthy number of zealots, not just stalker/immortal. That should reduce the problems with zerglings.
Re: hydra/ling pushes, I'd build observer before immortal if you don't already see roaches, and if you spot a hydra push coming don't make immortals or stalkers. Put the twilight down ASAP and get charge + archon, presumably storm research takes far too long but getting up a few archons is pretty fast and should help you kill the lings quickly so you can move on to the fragile hydras.
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Hey, FiWiFaKi, post more replays please. For guides, 3 replays is kinda bare minimum to prove your point and show different strategies. You can validate the claims for the variety of Zerg strats rather than just one.
Really would appreciate this addition, thanks.
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Quicker Hive tech is what I've seen combat this build, defensively, immortals/sentrys and Templars really good but to use them offensively it is much harder and you really don't have the force to contest the Zerg on creep until you are on 3base, so without the fear factor of Colossus/Stalker just walking into your base and ripping you apart and the fact that Protoss really needs to get his third running to support his army, Zerg have a much easier time teching to Hive. Obviously it isn't some kind of hard counter, just a way I've seen people deal with it since Immo/Templar isn't equipped to dealing with earlier hive Tech
Also, late game you should add 3/4 Colossus into your composition. You really don't need to commit more than that, but there is no disadvantage in adding them.
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IST its a very reliable composition. But jump over the midgame without colossi, its only a zerg fault (imho). You do some kind of damage in early game like deny the third expansion? Ok, you can do it. You engage him on a choke and you'r FF are awesome? Ok, you can do it. And things like this.. Yeah, the stargate open can be successfull for your goal of early damage to prevent midgame crushes, but also can push him to idras, the only thing you cant really hold, except your micro can.
I think the better way to do it, its a coucil way, give you out all micro chanches with blink and FF to resist before the 5\6 gas. Also let you the possibilities to do some kind of really good damege, like snipe idra's den or deny the 3\4 expansion. Im pretty sure archons are not a solution, if the zerg ctrl-click idras and then right click on the archon.
Anyway, you can hold the new zerg styles with infestors, lings, banelings etc etc really well, but if you survive a roach\hydra (pure, with no gas\supply spent on corruptors because you havent colossi) imho its only a question of circumstances.
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HT/Immortal really isn't an army I would like to face as Zerg late-game, but aren't there some weak points?
1. Hydra/ling all-in as mentioned above
2. 2-base mass muta. Since you won't have a significant stalker counter and templar are still way off, mass mutas should do insane amounts of damage.
3. Broodlords?
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On May 19 2011 16:23 Kraelog wrote:
HT/Immortal really isn't an army I would like to face as Zerg late-game, but aren't there some weak points?
1. Hydra/ling all-in as mentioned above
2. 2-base mass muta. Since you won't have a significant stalker counter and templar are still way off, mass mutas should do insane amounts of damage.
3. Broodlords?
Well if you get Hallu/Observer, you don't have to commit to the composition if you see something like Muta or Hydra/Ling.
Broodlords are really good against this build, but IMO, you can't let the Zerg sit around after you get a decent army, you need to press him and force him to make units, if he can make a decent Broodlord/Infestor army then you are dead.
But then again, Broodlord/Infestor destroys everything Protoss has except Carriers
To the OP, there is no reason to stay on 3gas for a long time, if you have reached 16 probes on minerals then there really shouldn't be a reason why you wouldn't take your gas, the gas is more valuable than mining inefficiently at that stage
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If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc).
Of course, if you get VRs your 3rd will be delayed but you might also be able to deny Zerg's third, depending on maps and timing, of course. And you will have more map presence if Zerg decides to go Roach/ling or something.
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This unit comp is easily the stronger than Collosus deathball (and more fun to play, too)
Problem is holding off early Hydra aggression. You can always scout for Mutas and deal with them accordingly, but even if you scout the Hydras they are hard to counter with no storm or Robotics Bay.
But honestly, Temp/Immortal is actually the tits.
BTW this transitions nicely to Blink Stalker/Templar/Carrier/Mothership >_<
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main problem i have is your replay opponent wasn't very good. I'm not big on the phoenix opening, if he drops 2 spore/base and drones to 60 while expanding can u do anything about it without telegraphing your intent by 1-basing?
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On May 19 2011 16:23 Kraelog wrote:
HT/Immortal really isn't an army I would like to face as Zerg late-game, but aren't there some weak points?
1. Hydra/ling all-in as mentioned above
2. 2-base mass muta. Since you won't have a significant stalker counter and templar are still way off, mass mutas should do insane amounts of damage.
3. Broodlords?
As long as you scout muta/broodlord tech, you can easily start producing stalkres and get your twilight council up faster than normal.
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So what do you do on a map like scrap station where it's pretty hard to tkae your 3rd?
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Im using a similar build but different timings , I stealed it from nAniwa when he crushed someone on TSL :
You start with a 3gate sentry , you get like 6 sentries and 3 zealots , you put a very early Robo ( at 6min30) and a forge at uour natural , chrono +1 and an obs.
After you chrono immortals , and when +1 is at 50% put a twilight council and 2 moe gates ( you will have 5 gates and 1 robo ).
Start blink and +2 , keeping making immos and warping stalkers , when +2 and blink is over put a templar archives and push the zerg with your 4/5 immos , 6 sentries , 3 zealots and mass stalkers ( it's near 12min30)
Try to do some damage , if you cant kill the zerg dont worry , start a 3rd and storm research , you will be fine againts any late game with your upgrades (blink , +2) and HT's.
I guess this build may be vulnerable againts any ling/roacha all in or fast hydra push , but I think with 1/2 canons and some good FF you should be fine , but I need to experiment this build more.
Also since you have blink and upgrd attack early , its fine vs any mutas.
What do you guys think of this build?
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On May 19 2011 21:36 dafnay wrote:
Im using a similar build but different timings , I stealed it from nAniwa when he crushed someone on TSL :
You start with a 3gate sentry , you get like 6 sentries and 3 zealots , you put a very early Robo ( at 6min30) and a forge at uour natural , chrono +1 and an obs.
After you chrono immortals , and when +1 is at 50% put a twilight council and 2 moe gates ( you will have 5 gates and 1 robo ).
Start blink and +2 , keeping making immos and warping stalkers , when +2 and blink is over put a templar archives and push the zerg with your 4/5 immos , 6 sentries , 3 zealots and mass stalkers ( it's near 12min30)
Try to do some damage , if you cant kill the zerg dont worry , start a 3rd and storm research , you will be fine againts any late game with your upgrades (blink , +2) and HT's.
I guess this build may be vulnerable againts any ling/roacha all in or fast hydra push , but I think with 1/2 canons and some good FF you should be fine , but I need to experiment this build more.
Also since you have blink and upgrd attack early , its fine vs any mutas.
What do you guys think of this build?
got some replays from that?
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EPT
