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Quick 3 Base Templar/Immortal
Intro
Alright, so I myself love playing PvZ. It is my favorite match-up and I don't like playing too standard, I pioneer pretty much all my builds, some not as effective as others, but I have fun with them. Lately I've been using a very successful PvZ build that has consistently been beating Top1-Top20 masters (Maybe at 75%). If you are interested in this build keep reading on, or if you have been using this build and have other things to add please share. I want to say this is a new build I've been using so I don't have that many things figured out yet, but I love it so much I wanted to share.
Build Overview
The idea of the build is to do some sort of 2 gas expand. Generally speaking this will be a 3 gate sentry expand, however I prefer to do a 2/3gate + stargate expand (It is delayed by a little bit, but I feel pheonix killing drones, overlords, and sometimes even a queen or two justify it).
Now this is where the build differs from say a regular 3 gate sentry expand into 2 base collosis. You can your robo as you usually would but you don't worry about getting robotics bay. You throw down a forge and start getting upgrades (off one forge) and make several immortals. as well as keep a steady zealot + stalker combo warping in, you will be fine on 3 gases for a long time. The advantage of this composition is that you have a larger army early, and therefore you have the army needed to hold a 3rd base.
Now ideally at the 10:30 minute mark your third will begin to go up - And you will have approximatly 40-45 probes. At this point youll have your obs out and decide what to do from there. If you see lots of roaches, keep chronoing immortals, if the zerg decides to take a third very quickly you will be fine vs any zergling/roach pressure but be ahead because of your three base. You will be fine with 3 warpgates and a robo until your third starts building if you're keeping constant production.
You want to get attack armor attack attack for your upgrades. At the 14ish minute mark when your 1/1 is just finishing youll have your twilight finishing and I am at 6-8 at this point. Still your only units will be zealot + stalker + sentry + immortals but because you have approximatly 60 probes over 3 bases you'll have more stuff than your opponent.
This army is good vs roaches, good vs ling/bling combos... And well the main thing you need to be looking out for is muta tech switches as the army tends to be heavier in zealots + sentry rather than stalker. Zergs obviously wont mass roaches vs that kind of army and that is why they'll tend to go either roach/hydra or tech to broodlord. At the 15 minute mark or so you want to start your templar archives. Depending on your execution you will have a maxed army at 19 minutes or so. Of templar + chargelot + blinkstalker + immortal + sentries from expand and a 3-4 base zerg doesn't have enough stuff to combat such an army, infact there aren't many compositions that fair well against this army. The army composition is great vs so many things.
It destroys (usually):
Roach + Hydra
Zergling + Baneling (A couple archons are a nice touch)
Any ultralisk play
Lategame muta play
Great against any infestor play.
Cons:
Now this is the problem, once I reach the lategame, there isn't really anything that beats me, sometimes two base muta kills me and sometimes zergling + roach all-ins when I have 1 or no immortals.
Now this thread isn't about saying this build doesn't work, maybe at top top GM it doesn't but it's been working for me beautifully. This thread is to show you this build and discuss how to improve it, make it safer to certain tactics, and share what has worked for you. If you have any questions regarding this build (I realise I din't go to super deep detail) feel free to ask and I'll try explaining to the best of my ability.
I have one replay at hand right now (Top 5 Masters), hopefully I'll add more soon, but for now enjoy. I'll be editing up this thread to make it look nicer too, just wanted a base line.
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/1888
PS -Maybe some pros use this build, but I haven't seen it in any tourneys and I wanted to share, so yeah ^_^ Also post 1337 !
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1337 post huh. 1337 much?
3 total replays would be pretty nice. 
I will take a look. Immortals destroy roaches and storm destroys everything else (except ultras). And since archons are so strong now, it matches quite well.
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I've also been trying this build on ladder, where you skip colossus completely, and go with a mostly gateway, but some immortal army. It works pretty well, since a lot of zergs are trying Spanishiwa's build lately, because of the apparent high win-rate using that build. With templars, a few storms or feedbacks can do terrible damage to their army, while also allowing you to reinforce your army by morphing archons.
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<3
The replay says it's from KiwiKaki but I'm guessing you're not him? Just stole his name for some reason?
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On May 19 2011 11:18 Keilah wrote:
<3
The replay says it's from KiwiKaki but I'm guessing you're not him? Just stole his name for some reason?
Different character codes.
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On May 19 2011 11:04 iChau wrote:1337 post huh. 1337 much? 3 total replays would be pretty nice. I will take a look. Immortals destroy roaches and storm destroys everything else (except ultras). And since archons are so strong now, it matches quite well.
I should save my replays, but I'll be playing later tonight so hopefully I will be able to get a few more.
On May 19 2011 11:15 Flameling wrote:
I've also been trying this build on ladder, where you skip colossus completely, and go with a mostly gateway, but some immortal army. It works pretty well, since a lot of zergs are trying Spanishiwa's build lately, because of the apparent high win-rate using that build. With templars, a few storms or feedbacks can do terrible damage to their army, while also allowing you to reinforce your army by morphing archons.
Exactly, people get too far into that mentality than you need collosis. It's a great and fun composition to play and like you said, it's good vs everything as long as you have good control and positioning.
On May 19 2011 11:18 Keilah wrote:
<3
The replay says it's from KiwiKaki but I'm guessing you're not him? Just stole his name for some reason?
Long story, it's me playing, not real Kiwi. Don't let my ID bother you please.
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I've been messing with immortal+HT PvZ for a while and if you can survive to get 3 bases up and running with templar to storm, I feel like it's unbelievably strong. The HT also give you archons later on which are fantastic against most Zerg units. Lately Artosis has been doing this on his stream to decent success. He likes to open with zealot+stalker pressure while expanding, and going fast blink for additional 2-base pressure. I really like this approach because it transitions very smoothly into your lategame composition while allowing you to pressure Zerg. You can even go for a powerful 6/7 gate, 1 robo, +1 attack, blink, observer push that is very hard for Zerg to deal with.
The issue I've had with it is against fast hydra-ling timings/all-ins. I feel like getting storm off 2-bases is just too slow, and it's better to just get colossus if you scout a lot of hydra. Mass chargelots was something I was screwing around with as a response, since they are actually awesome against hydras, but I doubt it's really tenable.
Getting a 3rd is also a bit tough if you're going for immortal stalker off 2-base. Mass lings are really strong for denying and harassing until you do get those HTs up. I've been thinking about whether it's better to just get blink and storm off 2-base before taking a 3rd, at which point you add 1 or 2 robo immortal production.
At the moment I've been opening normally (3-gate sentry expo, move toward colossus, as standard as possible) but based on my hallucination scouting fast infestors, I'll get high templar for feedback and make pure immortal while getting storm and taking a fast 3rd. But if I don't spot infestor play, I'm not totally comfortable just going straight up (blind?) for stalker+immortal+HT.
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On May 19 2011 11:43 GomJabbar wrote:
I've been messing with immortal+HT PvZ for a while and if you can survive to get 3 bases up and running with templar to storm, I feel like it's unbelievably strong. The HT also give you archons later on which are fantastic against most Zerg units. Lately Artosis has been doing this on his stream to decent success. He likes to open with zealot+stalker pressure while expanding, and going fast blink for additional 2-base pressure. I really like this approach because it transitions very smoothly into your lategame composition while allowing you to pressure Zerg. You can even go for a powerful 6/7 gate, 1 robo, +1 attack, blink, observer push that is very hard for Zerg to deal with.
The issue I've had with it is against fast hydra-ling timings/all-ins. I feel like getting storm off 2-bases is just too slow, and it's better to just get colossus if you scout a lot of hydra. Mass chargelots was something I was screwing around with as a response, since they are actually awesome against hydras, but I doubt it's really tenable.
Getting a 3rd is also a bit tough if you're going for immortal stalker off 2-base. Mass lings are really strong for denying and harassing until you do get those HTs up. I've been thinking about whether it's better to just get blink and storm off 2-base before taking a 3rd, at which point you add 1 or 2 robo immortal production.
At the moment I've been opening normally (3-gate sentry expo, move toward colossus, as standard as possible) but based on my hallucination scouting fast infestors, I'll get high templar for feedback and make pure immortal while getting storm and taking a fast 3rd. But if I don't spot infestor play, I'm not totally comfortable just going straight up (blind?) for stalker+immortal+HT.
Well, OP is recommending using a healthy number of zealots, not just stalker/immortal. That should reduce the problems with zerglings.
Re: hydra/ling pushes, I'd build observer before immortal if you don't already see roaches, and if you spot a hydra push coming don't make immortals or stalkers. Put the twilight down ASAP and get charge + archon, presumably storm research takes far too long but getting up a few archons is pretty fast and should help you kill the lings quickly so you can move on to the fragile hydras.
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Hey, FiWiFaKi, post more replays please. For guides, 3 replays is kinda bare minimum to prove your point and show different strategies. You can validate the claims for the variety of Zerg strats rather than just one.
Really would appreciate this addition, thanks.
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Quicker Hive tech is what I've seen combat this build, defensively, immortals/sentrys and Templars really good but to use them offensively it is much harder and you really don't have the force to contest the Zerg on creep until you are on 3base, so without the fear factor of Colossus/Stalker just walking into your base and ripping you apart and the fact that Protoss really needs to get his third running to support his army, Zerg have a much easier time teching to Hive. Obviously it isn't some kind of hard counter, just a way I've seen people deal with it since Immo/Templar isn't equipped to dealing with earlier hive Tech
Also, late game you should add 3/4 Colossus into your composition. You really don't need to commit more than that, but there is no disadvantage in adding them.
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IST its a very reliable composition. But jump over the midgame without colossi, its only a zerg fault (imho). You do some kind of damage in early game like deny the third expansion? Ok, you can do it. You engage him on a choke and you'r FF are awesome? Ok, you can do it. And things like this.. Yeah, the stargate open can be successfull for your goal of early damage to prevent midgame crushes, but also can push him to idras, the only thing you cant really hold, except your micro can.
I think the better way to do it, its a coucil way, give you out all micro chanches with blink and FF to resist before the 5\6 gas. Also let you the possibilities to do some kind of really good damege, like snipe idra's den or deny the 3\4 expansion. Im pretty sure archons are not a solution, if the zerg ctrl-click idras and then right click on the archon.
Anyway, you can hold the new zerg styles with infestors, lings, banelings etc etc really well, but if you survive a roach\hydra (pure, with no gas\supply spent on corruptors because you havent colossi) imho its only a question of circumstances.
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HT/Immortal really isn't an army I would like to face as Zerg late-game, but aren't there some weak points?
1. Hydra/ling all-in as mentioned above
2. 2-base mass muta. Since you won't have a significant stalker counter and templar are still way off, mass mutas should do insane amounts of damage.
3. Broodlords?
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On May 19 2011 16:23 Kraelog wrote:
HT/Immortal really isn't an army I would like to face as Zerg late-game, but aren't there some weak points?
1. Hydra/ling all-in as mentioned above
2. 2-base mass muta. Since you won't have a significant stalker counter and templar are still way off, mass mutas should do insane amounts of damage.
3. Broodlords?
Well if you get Hallu/Observer, you don't have to commit to the composition if you see something like Muta or Hydra/Ling.
Broodlords are really good against this build, but IMO, you can't let the Zerg sit around after you get a decent army, you need to press him and force him to make units, if he can make a decent Broodlord/Infestor army then you are dead.
But then again, Broodlord/Infestor destroys everything Protoss has except Carriers
To the OP, there is no reason to stay on 3gas for a long time, if you have reached 16 probes on minerals then there really shouldn't be a reason why you wouldn't take your gas, the gas is more valuable than mining inefficiently at that stage
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If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc).
Of course, if you get VRs your 3rd will be delayed but you might also be able to deny Zerg's third, depending on maps and timing, of course. And you will have more map presence if Zerg decides to go Roach/ling or something.
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This unit comp is easily the stronger than Collosus deathball (and more fun to play, too)
Problem is holding off early Hydra aggression. You can always scout for Mutas and deal with them accordingly, but even if you scout the Hydras they are hard to counter with no storm or Robotics Bay.
But honestly, Temp/Immortal is actually the tits.
BTW this transitions nicely to Blink Stalker/Templar/Carrier/Mothership >_<
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main problem i have is your replay opponent wasn't very good. I'm not big on the phoenix opening, if he drops 2 spore/base and drones to 60 while expanding can u do anything about it without telegraphing your intent by 1-basing?
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On May 19 2011 16:23 Kraelog wrote:
HT/Immortal really isn't an army I would like to face as Zerg late-game, but aren't there some weak points?
1. Hydra/ling all-in as mentioned above
2. 2-base mass muta. Since you won't have a significant stalker counter and templar are still way off, mass mutas should do insane amounts of damage.
3. Broodlords?
As long as you scout muta/broodlord tech, you can easily start producing stalkres and get your twilight council up faster than normal.
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So what do you do on a map like scrap station where it's pretty hard to tkae your 3rd?
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Im using a similar build but different timings , I stealed it from nAniwa when he crushed someone on TSL :
You start with a 3gate sentry , you get like 6 sentries and 3 zealots , you put a very early Robo ( at 6min30) and a forge at uour natural , chrono +1 and an obs.
After you chrono immortals , and when +1 is at 50% put a twilight council and 2 moe gates ( you will have 5 gates and 1 robo ).
Start blink and +2 , keeping making immos and warping stalkers , when +2 and blink is over put a templar archives and push the zerg with your 4/5 immos , 6 sentries , 3 zealots and mass stalkers ( it's near 12min30)
Try to do some damage , if you cant kill the zerg dont worry , start a 3rd and storm research , you will be fine againts any late game with your upgrades (blink , +2) and HT's.
I guess this build may be vulnerable againts any ling/roacha all in or fast hydra push , but I think with 1/2 canons and some good FF you should be fine , but I need to experiment this build more.
Also since you have blink and upgrd attack early , its fine vs any mutas.
What do you guys think of this build?
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On May 19 2011 21:36 dafnay wrote:
Im using a similar build but different timings , I stealed it from nAniwa when he crushed someone on TSL :
You start with a 3gate sentry , you get like 6 sentries and 3 zealots , you put a very early Robo ( at 6min30) and a forge at uour natural , chrono +1 and an obs.
After you chrono immortals , and when +1 is at 50% put a twilight council and 2 moe gates ( you will have 5 gates and 1 robo ).
Start blink and +2 , keeping making immos and warping stalkers , when +2 and blink is over put a templar archives and push the zerg with your 4/5 immos , 6 sentries , 3 zealots and mass stalkers ( it's near 12min30)
Try to do some damage , if you cant kill the zerg dont worry , start a 3rd and storm research , you will be fine againts any late game with your upgrades (blink , +2) and HT's.
I guess this build may be vulnerable againts any ling/roacha all in or fast hydra push , but I think with 1/2 canons and some good FF you should be fine , but I need to experiment this build more.
Also since you have blink and upgrd attack early , its fine vs any mutas.
What do you guys think of this build?
got some replays from that?
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On May 19 2011 21:40 Nolot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 21:36 dafnay wrote:
Im using a similar build but different timings , I stealed it from nAniwa when he crushed someone on TSL :
You start with a 3gate sentry , you get like 6 sentries and 3 zealots , you put a very early Robo ( at 6min30) and a forge at uour natural , chrono +1 and an obs.
After you chrono immortals , and when +1 is at 50% put a twilight council and 2 moe gates ( you will have 5 gates and 1 robo ).
Start blink and +2 , keeping making immos and warping stalkers , when +2 and blink is over put a templar archives and push the zerg with your 4/5 immos , 6 sentries , 3 zealots and mass stalkers ( it's near 12min30)
Try to do some damage , if you cant kill the zerg dont worry , start a 3rd and storm research , you will be fine againts any late game with your upgrades (blink , +2) and HT's.
I guess this build may be vulnerable againts any ling/roacha all in or fast hydra push , but I think with 1/2 canons and some good FF you should be fine , but I need to experiment this build more.
Also since you have blink and upgrd attack early , its fine vs any mutas.
What do you guys think of this build? got some replays from that?
Since i had to reinstall windows all my folders are empty , but Ill try to upload some of them today if i play some zergs ^^
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On May 19 2011 16:22 Aleister wrote:
IST its a very reliable composition. But jump over the midgame without colossi, its only a zerg fault (imho). You do some kind of damage in early game like deny the third expansion? Ok, you can do it. You engage him on a choke and you'r FF are awesome? Ok, you can do it. And things like this.. Yeah, the stargate open can be successfull for your goal of early damage to prevent midgame crushes, but also can push him to idras, the only thing you cant really hold, except your micro can.
I think the better way to do it, its a coucil way, give you out all micro chanches with blink and FF to resist before the 5\6 gas. Also let you the possibilities to do some kind of really good damege, like snipe idra's den or deny the 3\4 expansion. Im pretty sure archons are not a solution, if the zerg ctrl-click idras and then right click on the archon.
Anyway, you can hold the new zerg styles with infestors, lings, banelings etc etc really well, but if you survive a roach\hydra (pure, with no gas\supply spent on corruptors because you havent colossi) imho its only a question of circumstances.
It's very hard to understand what you're saying. Please replace idra with hydra and fix your post better. I don't know what it is, maybe it's the bad grammar, the strange use of 'awesome', maybe its how it was constructed. I had to read it like 4 times to kind of get it.
Anyway, what i get from this is that you can't skip colossus and it's the zerg's fault if you are able to pull it off?
[Edit] I still don't get it
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Wasn't this the build idra was constantly whining about on stotg?
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jusst for all those who are scary of some all ins, there is a nice thread from travis.
2gate halu first expand. with haluzination u can easily scout every all in and u can still make a transition to that 3 base ht immo style.
also a 3 gate dt expand can be good, because its easier to make a transition to the mentioned style
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there is a counter to this build
if your opponent gets some baneling drops on top of your ht's, you're kinda screwed.
oh and hydras on creep actually arent that bad against storms.
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On May 19 2011 22:14 Fleuria wrote:
Wasn't this the build idra was constantly whining about on stotg?
you mean the one he mentioned (ONCE) that had a good timing but was difficult to execute well so everyone goes colossi anyways? then ye i dont recall him talking about it for more than 2 minutes
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This is a great build, I use a variation of this which goes 3 gate sentry expand w/ hallu into +1 weap 6 gate or 5 gate twilight depending on if scouted. If not scouted then 6 gate will 90% kill/deny Z's 3rd. If scouted, cancel last gate and go twilight + gold base or any 3rd. Assuming you scout mass speedling/bling infestor with your hallu, you throw up templar as soon as council finishes and research storm while pressuring with your heavy zealot, light sentry light stalker combo.
Robo is a waste of money imo if you are using it to scout and build blind immortals. Hallu is cheap and faster to spot for roach tech and if no roach tech, you won't need immortals that early nor do you need detection.
-> I also go speedlot before blink vs infestor ling/bling because it spreads out your army quickly and forces wasted fungals on zealots (instead of expensive sentries and stalkers) allowing your HT's to catch up and storm the lings and FB the infestors. Fungal does minimal against zealots since they recieve no bonus damage nor do they care since they are melee unit anyways, their job is to block shit and after being fungaled they still block shit 
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Thanks for bumping this. I've been seeing this more and more lately in pro games, and I feel like it's a more fleshed out strategy now. Seems that after whichever expansion build you do, you should work up to a quick +2 attack blink stalker timing with an observer. You can do a 7 gate and snipe Zerg's third (blink helps you NOT sacrifice all your stalkers to do that). Expanding after this push puts you in a fantastic spot economically and most Zergs will try to all-in. It's also possible to forgo the push and just expand quickly. Once on 3 base you can get templar and storm ASAP while making immortals constantly. Don't need a big immortal number, but they do help against pure roach compositions. The blink stalkers give you a lot of map control, too, and with the observer you can blink into the main and snipe tech buildings very fast.
Really fun way to play!
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You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
The ultimate PvZ combo of units is voidray, immortal, high templar, archon. You have immortal for all armour units, splash for everything else, and voidrays for broodlords. If you know this, you can create a gameplan to acquire these, and I think the build you shared is pretty similar to what I've been doing for a while now (except I haven't been sharing my builds lately).
I like to go 3 gate expand, into robo + forge. Get 1/1, and you want a twilight to finish once 1/1 finishes. The robo gives you the option of immortals in case of a lot of roaches, and 1/1 + blink, sentries, and immortals can easily hold roach/hydra/ling mid-game. The next step is either DT + warp prisms, or high templar tech.
Then once you know the zerg is going for broodlords, slap down 2-3 stargates and chrono out a lot of voidrays.
Pretty solid gameplan imo. In case of muta/ling, you should see this coming with hallu/obs, and go to whichever templar tech path you prefer, but you'll need blink and more stalkers than usual (pretty much no more immortals until your stalker count is high).
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On June 11 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:
You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
On May 19 2011 18:59 SeaSwift wrote:
If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc).
But you're a blue post, so people will listen to you
Relying on Stalkers to kill Broodlords is definitely a bad idea most idea most of the time, as Stalkers scale really badly, so you will have to switch out eventually.
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On May 19 2011 21:12 Nolot wrote:
So what do you do on a map like scrap station where it's pretty hard to tkae your 3rd?
A different build?
It's probably not a good idea to have a "one build for all maps" mentality, unless you're new.
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This build seems really weak to early Hydra/ling pressure, and I feel this is very map dependent as 3 gate expand seems to be getting abused more and more by aggressive zerg play!
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I always use HT/immortal if the zerg masses roachs/corruptor or in late game when im 4+ bases, il sure try this later 2night, thx for the build.
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On May 19 2011 11:15 Flameling wrote:
I've also been trying this build on ladder, where you skip colossus completely, and go with a mostly gateway, but some immortal army. It works pretty well, since a lot of zergs are trying Spanishiwa's build lately, because of the apparent high win-rate using that build. With templars, a few storms or feedbacks can do terrible damage to their army, while also allowing you to reinforce your army by morphing archons.
Gateway + immortals is RangeD's favourite unit comp vs. zerg. It's hard to deal with infestors though.
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Very interesting build, I'll have to try it. I'm at rank 1 in my diamond division atm with a 70% win rate vs. both P and T, but only a 40% win rate vs. Z. Hopefully this build is good enough to raise my win % vs. Z so I can get into masters.
I don't really see how this build can hold against a mass brood lord switch, however. So I'm curious how you answer to that. Also, are there any windows for aggression with this build?
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I was wondering if u have ever faced mass MASS (like 60+) banes with this build. it seems like the zealot/sentry heavy mix would die very quickly, allowing any reinforcements (I have been favoring ling/muta) to take care of the immo/archon.
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60 banes is 10 infestors worth of gas, and all that goes down within seconds to psionic storm if microed properly (like funnel them with some FF's). 10 infestors would do sooo much more damage not to mention once those banes go down, zerg won't have much more than lings or some insignificant amount of gas units left.
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On June 11 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:
You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 18:59 SeaSwift wrote:
If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc). But you're a blue post, so people will listen to you Relying on Stalkers to kill Broodlords is definitely a bad idea most idea most of the time, as Stalkers scale really badly, so you will have to switch out eventually.
I have to disagree with the both of you and say that comp is powerful but overall less effective as a game plan than just mass upgraded blink stalker with a little templar support. Its more versatile, it can be quickly rebuilt, its mobile, and its only weakness is ultras, which zealots can hold in place for a very long time while you get an additional robo for immortal. Your comp is slow, vulnerable, hard to replace, and not nearly invincible like a standard max deathball. You won't come out of a fight with only small losses and you will lose a the war of attrition due to running out of templar energy on your amuletless templar. That was a great comp when we had amulet though
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On June 11 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:
You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 18:59 SeaSwift wrote:
If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc). But you're a blue post, so people will listen to you Relying on Stalkers to kill Broodlords is definitely a bad idea most idea most of the time, as Stalkers scale really badly, so you will have to switch out eventually.
I have to disagree with the both of you and say that comp is powerful but overall less effective as a game plan than just mass upgraded blink stalker with a little templar support. Its more versatile, it can be quickly rebuilt, its mobile, and its only weakness is ultras, which zealots can hold in place for a very long time while you get an additional robo for immortal. Your comp is slow, vulnerable, hard to replace, and not nearly invincible like a standard max deathball. You won't come out of a fight with only small losses and you will lose a the war of attrition due to running out of templar energy on your amuletless templar. That was a great comp when we had amulet though
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as a zerg i absolutely hate this build one game i was at 6 base against 3 base and lost TT and some blink stalkers with this build takes care of broodlords absolutely unstoppable still haven't figured out how to counter it yet
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My build has the same end but gets there faster and stronger i think.
-16 nexus and add on a single gateway with double forges and cybercore, like 2 cannons and drone up
-take all 4 gas, chronoing probes, when you have enough money for upgrades then stop chronoing probes and start on upgrades.
-add on 3 more gates, a twilight, and a robo, chrono out observer, warp in stalkers, if you see a spire with your observer then drop more gates; if there are just roaches then go for a second robo.
-push out with 2/2 and blinkstalkers/immortals with a few zealouts while taking your third
-add on both high/dark templar archives
-after third is saturated keep pressuring, and take 4th
-add 3 stargates and pump voids with 2 cyber cores for air upgrades
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/5144
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On June 11 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:
You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 18:59 SeaSwift wrote:
If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc). But you're a blue post, so people will listen to you Relying on Stalkers to kill Broodlords is definitely a bad idea most idea most of the time, as Stalkers scale really badly, so you will have to switch out eventually.
I have to disagree with the both of you and say that comp is powerful but overall less effective as a game plan than just mass upgraded blink stalker with a little templar support. Its more versatile, it can be quickly rebuilt, its mobile, and its only weakness is ultras, which zealots can hold in place for a very long time while you get an additional robo for immortal. Your comp is slow, vulnerable, hard to replace, and not nearly invincible like a standard max deathball. You won't come out of a fight with only small losses and you will lose a the war of attrition due to running out of templar energy on your amuletless templar. That was a great comp when we had amulet though
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On June 11 2011 16:32 BlinkGosu wrote:My build has the same end but gets there faster and stronger i think. -16 nexus and add on a single gateway with double forges and cybercore, like 2 cannons and drone up -take all 4 gas, chronoing probes, when you have enough money for upgrades then stop chronoing probes and start on upgrades. -add on 3 more gates, a twilight, and a robo, chrono out observer, warp in stalkers, if you see a spire with your observer then drop more gates; if there are just roaches then go for a second robo. -push out with 2/2 and blinkstalkers/immortals with a few zealouts while taking your third -add on both high/dark templar archives -after third is saturated keep pressuring, and take 4th -add 3 stargates and pump voids with 2 cyber cores for air upgrades http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/5144
Sounds good, which skill level we talking about? If it's below masters I cba to watch the rep tbh 
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On May 19 2011 10:54 FiWiFaKi wrote:
You want to get attack armor attack attack for your upgrades. At the 14ish minute mark when your 1/1 is just finishing youll have your twilight finishing and I am at 6-8 at this point. Still your only units will be zealot + stalker + sentry + immortals but because you have approximatly 60 probes over 3 bases you'll have more stuff than your opponent.
How can you have more stuff than your opponent when zerg is already maxed?
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On June 11 2011 23:24 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:54 FiWiFaKi wrote:
You want to get attack armor attack attack for your upgrades. At the 14ish minute mark when your 1/1 is just finishing youll have your twilight finishing and I am at 6-8 at this point. Still your only units will be zealot + stalker + sentry + immortals but because you have approximatly 60 probes over 3 bases you'll have more stuff than your opponent.
How can you have more stuff than your opponent when zerg is already maxed?
^^
I think its a great build.. but one that suffers from lack of reactionary play. So you are going to make zealot/stalker/immortal until you have your third.. every time? Maybe you will scout a hydra/ling allin with your observer, and what then? You have your third started at 10:30 exactly with 4-5 immortals and zealots and stalkers and no way to transition out of it.
I feel like this is one of the greatest guides on TL IF the title was changed from "[G] PvZ Quick 3 Base Templar/Immortal" to.. idk something like "[G] PvZ Proper Reaction to Standard Roach/Hydra."
The problem with this is that you are setting up such exact timings for everything, and you have not covered all the zerg's possibilities in depth enough to make the build able to adjust in time. This guide might help the lower level players who have trouble with zerg in general, but when you get up into high masters (where you ARE) the build is simply not flexible enough to deal with all of zerg's various builds.
Nevertheless, I love the idea of this build though and will try to implement it more in my gameplay against zerg.. I've been feeling a bit too pressured into 2 base 5/6 gate blink stalker play with colossi. Thank you for this guide, FiWiFaKi!
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On June 11 2011 23:12 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:29 SeaSwift wrote:On June 11 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:
You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
On May 19 2011 18:59 SeaSwift wrote:
If you get an early Stargate, I would begin making Void Rays from that as soon as you feel safe on 2base. That should easily deal with the main problem with this build (Fast Hive ---> Broodlords). Immortal/Templar also relies heavily upon scouting constantly, so that you can get the required unit composition (Immortals>Ultras, Templar>Hydras, VRs>BLs etc). But you're a blue post, so people will listen to you Relying on Stalkers to kill Broodlords is definitely a bad idea most idea most of the time, as Stalkers scale really badly, so you will have to switch out eventually. I have to disagree with the both of you and say that comp is powerful but overall less effective as a game plan than just mass upgraded blink stalker with a little templar support. Its more versatile, it can be quickly rebuilt, its mobile, and its only weakness is ultras, which zealots can hold in place for a very long time while you get an additional robo for immortal. Your comp is slow, vulnerable, hard to replace, and not nearly invincible like a standard max deathball. You won't come out of a fight with only small losses and you will lose a the war of attrition due to running out of templar energy on your amuletless templar. That was a great comp when we had amulet though
I don't really see the basis for you saying most of that. I'd agree blink stalkers are more mobile and easier to replace in the sense that it's easier to produce one type of unit from one type of production facility, but I don't agree with the rest.
Immortals with templar support defeats everything a zerg can throw directly at it, except for broodlords. So once you see them coming you can use reactionary voidrays in the late game. Immortals just can't really be hard countered, unlike stalkers that really only shine when they can be mobile.
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This is a really strong yet unexplored unit composition, I really hope more protosses use it simply because it's much more exciting watching storms than colossus ^^
I'm wondering whether sentry expand is really the best way to go if you want this midgame, are sentries really all that useful in this composition? Immortals and archons don't have that much range... I don't play protoss though, so I don't know much, but it seems like blink stalkers are powerful enough that you could do some sort of blink expand rather than sentry expand... I dunno. :/
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So I find this thread and I'm thinking OMG someone but me uses this build too, but then I realised it was mine from a while back. So this has been my standard PvZ build and I have been practicing this build with some top 500-1000 NA players because two base muta plays do eat it up.
Looking over some of the recent comments, I personally think 3 gate sentry expand into immortals into third base is the safest way to get quick third base. Too often nowadays you see zergs do any 30-40 drone roach pushes with sling support than I honestly don't think you can hold if your opponent plays it right without a robo... Especially if you are skimping on cannons. The idea is though, your opponent isn't allowed to take a super quick third because you still have a decent army, and Im sure every zerg has taken a third with almost no army and then you get pushed with a zealot + sentry + immortal timing push and you just flat out die.
Banelings I don't find do good, in midgame atleast, baneling drops on the other hand are decent, they eat up sentry/zealot quickly however having a couple archons does very well. Overall they are decent but not something I could call a counter.
Broodlords, hmm, I think they are being overhyped here. I have lots of observers, if you don't have a large standing army I push you... I can't really see you have enough resources to make say 10 broodlords at once, and if you have 5 or so, I have plenty of time to scout it and I can make stalkers accordingly. Also if I see corruptors and I have no collosis I know something is up. And VR are again, very good units, and like you said Cecil in the perfect combo it's great to have them, but it's partially why the Collosis/VR deathball went out of style, defending till you grow one of those armies takes a while, as pretty much every game the zerg will try to all-in you, I certainly dont think the proper response to a 3 gate immortal/templar toss is to take a 4th and 5th base. If I have 70 workers what use will a 4th and 5th be, 100 drones to saturate is too much obviously.
If any higher masters want some practice facing this build or want to learn this build from me feel free to send me a PM on TL. Also I think I might be revamping this thread in the future because it is a lot of fun.
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I've tried this build at a high Diamond/low Masters level and it seems to get crushed the moment they transition to Brood Lords. Does anyone have a replay that they can upload that includes the transition to Brood Lords?
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On June 14 2011 10:06 -Trippin- wrote:
I've tried this build at a high Diamond/low Masters level and it seems to get crushed the moment they transition to Brood Lords. Does anyone have a replay that they can upload that includes the transition to Brood Lords?
Shouldn't your blink be done waaaay before they transition to BLs? In any case, if you want to see a version of this build dealing with broods, go here:
Download Round of 16 Replays
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232646
Look for Inka vs Ryse. I think it's game 1 on Shattered temple.
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That's one of my preferred builds in PvZ, except I open DTs for early map control, harass and delay his third. Then I tech blink, a robo for immortals, get a decent little army, and go for a templar archive when I take my 3rd. Then I'll spam templars and fusion them to archons, skipping storm. My mid/end game compo is chargelots, blink stalkers, archons and immortals with double-forge upgrades. Once I get that compo, it's very hard for the Zerg to stop me.
I also found that his compo is very effective against ultralisks ( archons and immortals rape them ), and can hold temporarily decently versus a moderate amount of boord lords. However, it must be completed by some voidrays once the number of brood lords grows. I've lost quite a few games due to my inability to harass the Zerg when he's got B5+ and tons of brood lords, because I didn't anticipate his brood lords quickly enough.
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On June 11 2011 04:13 CecilSunkure wrote:
You rely solely on stalkers to kill broodlords? I think having voidrays lategame is way smarter, and better.
The ultimate PvZ combo of units is voidray, immortal, high templar, archon. You have immortal for all armour units, splash for everything else, and voidrays for broodlords. If you know this, you can create a gameplan to acquire these, and I think the build you shared is pretty similar to what I've been doing for a while now (except I haven't been sharing my builds lately).
I like to go 3 gate expand, into robo + forge. Get 1/1, and you want a twilight to finish once 1/1 finishes. The robo gives you the option of immortals in case of a lot of roaches, and 1/1 + blink, sentries, and immortals can easily hold roach/hydra/ling mid-game. The next step is either DT + warp prisms, or high templar tech.
Then once you know the zerg is going for broodlords, slap down 2-3 stargates and chrono out a lot of voidrays.
Pretty solid gameplan imo. In case of muta/ling, you should see this coming with hallu/obs, and go to whichever templar tech path you prefer, but you'll need blink and more stalkers than usual (pretty much no more immortals until your stalker count is high).
Would you have some replays to share of you doing this build? That would help me see the build order clearly, and also how it adapts to certain situations. I think the OP sounds good but i watched the replay and prefer to not open stargate because im not confident in my micro.
Some specific questions actually - do you use the robo for the natural wall off? When do you expand to the 3rd??
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EPT
