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So, obviously this isn't something new - I guess - and I've been trying it out.
Basically, this should be a timing push against protosses that go FE, either 3gate FE or forge FE, and the point of the push is to deal significant damage to the Protoss, either killing a good amount of army(consider roaches are very cost efficient vs gateway units), sniping any gas heavy units(sentries, immortals).
How does it work
I've tried this as a follow-up to Spanishiwa's No Gas FE.
+ Show Spoiler [Build Order] +- 16 Hatchery
- 15 Pool
- 18 Overlord
- 2 Queens when possible
- More two queens when possible
- Keep droning until 16 drones on each base
- @32 drones: 4 Extractors
- (replace extractor drones as well)
- @100 Gas: Lair
- @2nd 100Gas: Ling Speed
--Deviation from Spanishiwa's Builld--
- @1st 100 Gas: Evolution Chamber(Throw it with the Lair)
- @25% Lair: 2 Roach Warrens(You can throw it at roughly 31% Lair actually)
- @100% evo chamber: +1 Missile Attack
- @100% Lair: Burrow, Glial Reconstitution, Tunneling Claws
- Constant Roach production from here
- Transitions
This is how it works: At about 10:25, All four upgrades will be done and you will have 21 roaches completed, and 9 in production - perhaps more, because I just can't do this build correctly, since I keep missing OL timings -.-
The push works in a way that it will hit HARD the protoss who is going for any build that relies on sentries for defense and/or offense. Speed allows you to reinforce your first batch of(30) roaches, or to simply make it harder for the protoss to stop and - if necessary - to retreat with little losses. Tunneling Claws and Burrow obviously allow you to make sentries completely useless.
Problems encountered when doing this build
- Excess gas. This can be easily fixed by taking your drones off from the fourth gas after you grab the important upgrades. You can also halt the Roach production a little in favor of more tech(OL speed, Overseer, another upgrade).
- Wall offs. This is probably the most efficient way for a Protoss to defend themselves against this, but it is easily circumvented by two volleys of attacks from the roaches. Either way, having a roach-heavy army is not a bad thing at all, and allows you to take total control of the map.
- Fast air. This is a poor reaction however, and many people are sure of it. First because fast air will be ineffective against your four queens and you can always throw down spore crawlers since you'll get an evo chamber anyways. Also, this will low down the gateway count for the Protoss, giving you an edge.
- Super turtle mass cannons. Impossible to break, but your map control will make the Protoss useless: you can just expand twice and be fine. You have a good, stable economy with this build and transitioning out of it is easy. Then all you need to do is deny any possible third base while massing up. Just thank the fact that Shakuras Plateau was changed so they can't take a free third like the could before 
Transitions
After doing your first 30-roach blow in your oponent, you can basically do whatever you want - assuming the engagement wasn't a total fuck-up and you reduced his numbers significantly. Taking a third is the best option, but you can also take Drops and nydus to freak out the Protoss.
Notice it is very hard to actually crush this push. Even if the Protoss made constant immortal production, you can always back off to a larger space and just contain him while you expand. Notice that "containing" the toss is necessary if, and only if, he is trying to hard counter it with tons of units that will end up eating his supply, which is advantageous to you. He can't really tech to collossus since that will reduce his unit count significantly, and that will give you a window of opportunity.
Also, This build doesn't include a big investment at all. One Roach Warren is not a big deal - 150 minerals is two roaches -50 gas - and it just allows you to get a faster tech after doing an opening that provides little tech(the very delayed gas).
I've included two replays where I do this, one versus a 3gate-FE protoss that goes for robo tech(altho a bit late), and the other versus a full-wall forge-FE toss that.. well... goes for every single possible tech off two bases. Either way, despite the mistakes that occur late, the point is how the push deals good amount of damage and enables you to expand even when the possible "counter" to it(choke + mass imortals) isn't enough to make it ineffective.
Also note that on the Forge FE game, I missed the build because I made a round of roaches, completely screwing the timing.
http://sc2shr.com/Wu - vs 3gate FE
http://sc2shr.com/Wv - vs Forge FE
(by the way, sc2shr.com is a site very similar to tinypic for sc2 replays, I really recommend it)
Discuss about the build, and if you have any suggestion to make the build better or if you know any terrible terrible flaw with it, please let us know1
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By 11 minutes, I think you could have researched both roach upgrades from one warren. Just brainstorming here, but if the idea is to get glial, burrow, and tunneling claws as soon as possible off of two warrens, you'll want the timing to be before the Protoss has detection. Otherwise, I don't think there's any reason to get two warrens instead of, say, two evo chambers.
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As a gold protoss player, I like to see this type of innovative thinking (especially from zerg players) as opposed to the simple "That's OP." I believe this build is worth looking at and I look forward to seeing how it develops, especially after the demonstration (and recent adoption) by oGsMC of how powerful sentries can be when used correctly against zerg.
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On April 19 2011 12:04 daglivewire wrote:
By 11 minutes, I think you could have researched both roach upgrades from one warren. Just brainstorming here, but if the idea is to get glial, burrow, and tunneling claws as soon as possible off of two warrens, you'll want the timing to be before the Protoss has detection. Otherwise, I don't think there's any reason to get two warrens instead of, say, two evo chambers.
The idea is to use it as a follow-up from Spanishiwa's "Ice Fisher" build. Basically, this is as fast as you can get it after staying gasless until the 32 drones mark.
Also, the detection isn't an issue. The point of this tunneling-speed +1 timing push is to avoid Forcefields to cause damage to a sentry-focused fast expand build.
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This build can be viable if you keep using overlord to scout for stargate, as you spend so much money on a ground force that cannot attack air; 1~2 voidrays can already ruin your day.
This can be a very good "counter" for the 3 gate expand build though, as you ignore their FF and energy saved up in sentries, which is the key for P to hold off Z aggression.
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As a follow up to the ice fisher, voids shouldn't be a problem if the zerg has connected his bases with creep as the extra queens pretty much nullify early air. Plus this calls for fast ups so you already have the evo chamber for spores.
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I've considered a similar variation of this build myself, however the clear drawback is that in order to get the extra roach warren/speed you have to make a huge investment. Tunneling claws + burrow (especially +1 variations) requires a ton of gas, especially when you consider making lots of roaches. The advantage to having speed for the timing attack to me does not outweigh the additional costs incurred as a result of getting the extra roach warren and upgrade. You can get close to the protoss army with burrowed movement, and escape also usually not an issue because you can just burrow away (if they have observers that fast their army shouldn't be large enough to pressure your retreat too much safely).
Overall, the idea is good but its just not worth it because speed doesn't make a huge difference when you have burrow movement and the cost is huge.
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On April 19 2011 12:33 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I've considered a similar variation of this build myself, however the clear drawback is that in order to get the extra roach warren/speed you have to make a huge investment. Tunneling claws + burrow (especially +1 variations) requires a ton of gas, especially when you consider making lots of roaches. The advantage to having speed for the timing attack to me does not outweigh the additional costs incurred as a result of getting the extra roach warren and upgrade. You can get close to the protoss army with burrowed movement, and escape also usually not an issue because you can just burrow away (if they have observers that fast their army shouldn't be large enough to pressure your retreat too much safely).
Overall, the idea is good but its just not worth it because speed doesn't make a huge difference when you have burrow movement and the cost is huge.
That was something that I thought as well, but the great point of this is to use in Huge maps, such as Shakuras Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar. Basically, the roach speed is the differential when aggressively rallying the stream of roaches.
Also, considering Spanishiwa's build nature, I don't think this is a really huge investment at all - a lot of people say that floating minerals with it is pretty common, heck why not spend a 150 more minerals just to get a faster upgrade you'd end up getting anyways?
Both my replays were on Shakuras Plateau, but I haven't really got the chance to trying it on Tal'Darim Altar, where I think this build should be even more effective.
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I used to do this with late game templar archives against zerg for storm + amulet to get out insanely fast storms, so I do like the double structure upgrade powering concept. But I'm not exactly sure what effect having both speed and burrow at the same time early game can do. It would greatly help re-inforcements if you were to go for a bust, but if you want more staying power, getting just one upgrade over the other would help out more (stargate speed + burrow, gateway burrow + tunneling). Getting both would help if you were going 2 base all-in roach bust, though. You are basically sacrificing being able to take a 3rd and having overlord speed (justified by the 350 minerals for drone + warren + research totaling to 350 minerals and 100 gas, which the drone would have been mining slightly longer before sacrificing for hatchery), and 1 to have your roaches move faster when tunneling claws hits (if they go sentry heavy, you don't need to outrun them, really, just get under forcefields, and glaill doesn't increase burrow movement speed), and a normal timing for tunneling + burrow hits about the time a warpgate pressure or all-in with sentries would come. I do like automatically getting burrow once lair is done if you are using a roach-based strategy, however. That should remain a constant imo.
This would probably be great to punish fast stargate, though, and allow you to stream roaches across the map quickly, while avoiding void rays and phoenixes in the middle of the map.
So this type of build WOULD give you a huge army tech advantage for a very specific timing window, but would sacrifice some key components of the later stages of the game that both happen at a very specific point in the mid game. Have you worked out drone counts and the lair timing? Do you go lair before zergling speed, or do you try to skip it for faster upgrades? When do you pull drones off of the 4th gas (only need 3 geysers to support constant roaches after upgrades finish)? Just asking some general questions to get an idea of your triggers and timings. I added a few points of consideration to give the opportunity cost of the extra roach warren, and how it fits in. I think it has some potential for a really cool 2 base timing attack.
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This should work ok against 6 gate pushes, and even stargate builds since there isn't enough time to get out many void rays, but I think the extra roach warren makes your intentions too clear. It looks like there's plenty of time to scout that, and just start chronoing immortals from 2 robos, since it's obvious you're going heavy on roaches.
At the very least, you should probably build the 2 roach warrens on separate ends of your base to make it harder to spot.
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While tunneling claws are nice, I feel this build makes many assumptions, and actually leaves you open to some potential ass-kicking.
If the Protoss closes his wall completely as a reaction to scouting this double warren, and grabs a stargate or a robo you could be in for a world of hurt.
Against a forge build, your roaches would be detected, and against a complete walloff, unable to exploit the forcefield ignore that is tunneling claws.
I'm not saying it's not viable, just a speedling roach all-in as a reaction to protoss FE will come quicker and in greater numbers. Maybe I'll give this type of build a try, to see if it works out.
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Like previously mentioned, this build is susceptible to heavy immortal builds. A 3 gate robo push would probably kill you. What I do is a 13 minute push with all the same upgrades and number of roaches but with ~4 infestors added in. Fungal growth will give you a fighting chance against immortals since it does 4 roach hits' worth of damage against hardened shield. At the least you should be able to wipe out their sentries.
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What about this:
Get 2 evolution chamber and +1 range +1 defense, you need to start it first because it take so long to research.
Make only one roach warren, as normal. Get borrow movement upgrade only.
Make one Hidralisk Den, because, really, chances are he'll scout and have imortals and it is good against everything pre-colossus I guess. Don't make any Hidra, cause you won't use them for the initial push.
Make a Nydus Worm later on, so it finishes at the time slow roachs get there.
Try to sneaky with most roachs and also sneaky a Nydus in base at the same time, if you feel it's impossíble to sneak the nydus, at least make a "proxy pylon" if you know what I mean. Keep producing either hidras or roachs and send them through Nydus Network.
Also, you can hide the Hidra and Nydus tech. I guess the nydus you can just start really late so chances are he won't scout it.
Edit: Also, why do you get speedlings, they are late enough to be useless, aren't they. If a expanding protoss pushes, he'll have Force Fields and zealots, shouldn't it be better defended with roachs alone? Why do you need the speed on lings that early? Anyway, at least I guess you can cancel the speed at the last second if the reason that made you think of it shows to be non-existent.
Edit2: ok, thought you were trying a 2 base all-in, I was thinking to make the all in stronger :D
It might actually be a good 2 base all in though, just have to time the right amount of mineral/gas roachs and hidras for what I thought lol.
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I do this often, works really well and is incredibly strong.
Problems I had is the excess minerals which I fixed by continuously making queens and using them with my mahusive roach army.
Its 3 bases worth of minerals and 2 bases worth of gas to have constant roach production with no left over resources (16 drones on minerals and 6 on gas per base).
Or 2 base worth of mineral and gas with constant queen production (or at least near constant).
Edit: My standard unit comp vs Zerg and Protoss, only difference is if I see Hydras or Infestors I get Infestors, if I see Collosi I get Corrupters.
You can even skip a few queens and take a 3rd with some initial Zerglings you build and just do constant Roach production. You get maxed stupidly fast.
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i prefer double evo +1 +1 plus burrow and speed.
when you first have burrow he has no obs so can just wait for FF to dispel itself. a little later when they have an obs then you already have tunneling claws.
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This seems like a very good push against a sentry expand and i think the most important factor that most people don't think of is that at this point zerg actually has a much bigger army and the reason toss survives this is by forcefields. But by tunneling claws, even if you get detected, your army has an insane regen and because of speed, you are reinforcing all the time.
A complete wall-in doesn't really help much, since you can just burrow, unburrow, attack and burrow again with probably no roaches dying.
What some people fail to see is that this is a follow up to spanishiwas build, and thus you get a booming amount of gas, i would actually think that on 4gas while you're waiting for your lair, you could get double 1+ and still have enough gas, since roaches only need 3gas for 2base production.
And guys, a roach warren extra for speed = 2 roaches minus 50 gas. That is not a big deal, but a timing push where you get sooooo many upgrades at once is super strong compared to what the warren costs.
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On April 19 2011 12:48 Gooey wrote:
I used to do this with late game templar archives against zerg for storm + amulet to get out insanely fast storms, so I do like the double structure upgrade powering concept. But I'm not exactly sure what effect having both speed and burrow at the same time early game can do. It would greatly help re-inforcements if you were to go for a bust, but if you want more staying power, getting just one upgrade over the other would help out more (stargate speed + burrow, gateway burrow + tunneling). Getting both would help if you were going 2 base all-in roach bust, though. You are basically sacrificing being able to take a 3rd and having overlord speed (justified by the 350 minerals for drone + warren + research totaling to 350 minerals and 100 gas, which the drone would have been mining slightly longer before sacrificing for hatchery), and 1 to have your roaches move faster when tunneling claws hits (if they go sentry heavy, you don't need to outrun them, really, just get under forcefields, and glaill doesn't increase burrow movement speed), and a normal timing for tunneling + burrow hits about the time a warpgate pressure or all-in with sentries would come. I do like automatically getting burrow once lair is done if you are using a roach-based strategy, however. That should remain a constant imo.
This would probably be great to punish fast stargate, though, and allow you to stream roaches across the map quickly, while avoiding void rays and phoenixes in the middle of the map.
So this type of build WOULD give you a huge army tech advantage for a very specific timing window, but would sacrifice some key components of the later stages of the game that both happen at a very specific point in the mid game. Have you worked out drone counts and the lair timing? Do you go lair before zergling speed, or do you try to skip it for faster upgrades? When do you pull drones off of the 4th gas (only need 3 geysers to support constant roaches after upgrades finish)? Just asking some general questions to get an idea of your triggers and timings. I added a few points of consideration to give the opportunity cost of the extra roach warren, and how it fits in. I think it has some potential for a really cool 2 base timing attack.
This is NOT an all-in, let's clarify this.
As I said, it is based off Sanishiwa's no-gas build, which works like this:
- 16 Hatch
- 15 Pool
- 18 Overlord
- 2 queens ASAP(as OL and 2nd hatch finishes)
- Constantly make drones
- As 2 queens finishes, +2 queens
- Make drones until you have 16 on each base
- As you get into the 40 food(32 drones + 4 queens), Throw down 4 extractors
- @1st 100 gas: Lair
- @2nd 100 gas: Ling speed
And then you continue with my build.
Not only this build is extremely greedy, it leaves enough excess minerals to grab a third base after you get all upgrades. Even with constant 2base roach production, there will be this excess of minerals that allows you to expand.
The push is not designed to instantly kill your opponent. It is designed to reduce his gas-heavy unit count: Sentries, Immortals(if possible) and even Stalkers. Even when you are detected, the burrowed SPEED roaches will be able to go through FFs easily to punish a sentry-heavy expansion.
Wall-offs are, indeed, a problem. Which is fixed with two volleys of your roaches, since you have so many. But then it would come down to control, and you'd still have a 3rd base to fall off anyways.
@Tachi
I thought on a second evo as well, but +1 armor costs 150 gas and it really cuts on the roach count on this timing, and also slows it down, so I dislike it.
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On April 19 2011 11:29 Zephirdd wrote:
There is a problem however. I'm nowhere near a good skill level to know if this is actually good or if it is actually easily countered(although I find it very hard), therefore I'd need other people's opinions regarding this.
[...]
What do you guys think about this kind of timing push? is it viable, or is it just something that "just works because of lower leagues"?
Common misconception my man, builds aren't black or white.
If it works for you at that level, it's good. If the style hits hard it's awesome. If a good player does it perfectly and it dosen't work, it's not the build's fault. Builds or ideas, well in essence, strategies, can be good at any level. It dosen't work better if it's lower against lower, or even high skill against low skill. Ideas are powerful in this game, and that's why so many people love it I guess.
2 roach warrens are not bad, it's only 150 minerals for a quicker push. I will try it~
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To the OP. I just played around with YABOT a bit, and i found that if you simply skip ling speed, which you won't use for the push anyway (since you're getting roach speed so you can reinforce with roaches) you can easily get a +1 carapace too. This really helps, since the tickle beams already do so little damage that roaches pretty much regen faster than the sentry DPS.
Here's a replay that shows me using this against a clanmate (just a few minutes ago), unfortunately i am on my laptop, (which lags like hell) so i am unable to do everything the way i wanted it too. IN addition he walled himself off pretty good, so i ended up nydusing his main, which just proved how immensely good this strat is if he doesnt have a choke/wall.
Roach timing with +1+1/burrow movement/speed
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On April 19 2011 12:33 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I've considered a similar variation of this build myself, however the clear drawback is that in order to get the extra roach warren/speed you have to make a huge investment. Tunneling claws + burrow (especially +1 variations) requires a ton of gas, especially when you consider making lots of roaches. The advantage to having speed for the timing attack to me does not outweigh the additional costs incurred as a result of getting the extra roach warren and upgrade. You can get close to the protoss army with burrowed movement, and escape also usually not an issue because you can just burrow away (if they have observers that fast their army shouldn't be large enough to pressure your retreat too much safely).
Overall, the idea is good but its just not worth it because speed doesn't make a huge difference when you have burrow movement and the cost is huge.
This.
Butttttttttttt
I like the idea of this build and since 2 hatchs and 4 gas is way too much gas for roach productions you could add a nydus network and send some drones + queens through into his main while you attack his natural with your roach army, the network could then be used to reinforce and the queens that you bring along should be able to deal with 1-3 voids pretty easily with transfuse, you could also use a couple of the drones you bring to make some spore crawlers and spine crawlers for even more annoyance
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EPT
