[D/Brainstorming] ZvP Double Warren +1 timing push - Page 2

On April 20 2011 04:09 ShinyGerbil wrote:
the idea of 2 roach warrens to speed up the upgrade just screams all in. I understand that you're saying that this build isn't meant to be all in, but think about it; if you're investing so much extra just to get a marginal timing advantage, you really *should* be all in. All ins or heavy timing attacks are the only thing where huge added investment for little return is useful, because they can tip the balance. However, this 11 minute attack doesn't rely on any strong timing (except perhaps before colossus). By 11 minutes protoss can very easily have an observer and an immortal, along with several sentries and a handful of stalkers. I agree you can kill several sentries in this attack but unless you find a strong way to transition or to maintain tempo, I find it hard to rationalize the second roach warren. Most notably, the 150 minerals on the second roach warren would likely go towards your 3rd expo which seems to be your next step in this build.

Another thing is that I don't think this synergizes well with the ice fisher. Ice fisher gives you a big mineral economy, and relatively late tech. Again, whatever few extra roaches you might have because of this bigger economy is sacrificed in the late tech, and second roach warren to compensate.

One more thing is that you need to decide (for yourself and perhaps include it in your post) what you're going to do after this attack. Given that you can't reliably do critical damage every game with it, what's the next step? you'll probably be accumulating gas at this point, with heavily upgrades roaches that give you decent map control but eat up your supply, and once protoss stabilizes, won't give you much potential for aggression. What then?

Overall, yes it's a strategy where all the upgrades combined make for an attack that more or less makes sense, and sniping sentries around the midgame ZvP is commonly understood as a good idea. However, for a build to be good you really want every single thing in your gameplay to rationalize and call for everything else, and as it stands your arguments just don't support each other as much as I would like.

On April 20 2011 06:49 entropius wrote:


The second evo is only useless once you max out upgrades. The second warren is too, but obviously you max out roach upgrades much faster.

The whole "all-in/not all-in" dichotomy is a false one in general -- many builds sacrifice future strength for present strength, some more extreme than others, with the idea that the present strength can be used to force an equal or greater longterm disadvantage on the opponent. The builds that people call "all in" are just on one end of that continuum.

Building an extra roach warren is unequivocally this. It's sacrificing 150 minerals and a drone to get roach speed faster. This is sacrificing future strength for short-term power, in the hopes that by having roach speed for your first push you'll get more than 200 minerals of utility out of it.

What it *does* scream is "I'm going to hit you in a very particular timing window with speed tunneling roaches, and I am going to hit you with a lot of them, because I'm expecting to get my investment back." It's a scouting telegraph, certainly.

So, don't build your two warrens next to each other, unless you're using them to simcity and don't mind being obvious.

On April 20 2011 07:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:


But it still would be a good idea to build the warrens far apart.

And have you thought about skipping ling speed (and giving up 2 roaches) to get +1 carapace?

On April 20 2011 08:49 gdalam wrote:
The problem with this is that any decent Protoss gets Hallucination as he drops his Nexus and continually scouts. When he sees 2 Roach Warrens and a bunch of Roaches being made, he'll know that some attack is coming. It's standard to get at least 1-2 Cannons at your natural when doing the 3 Gate Sentry expand, and the safest course of action is to drop a Robo after you expand. This means that the Protoss will have plenty of detection and units to fend this attack off.

This will pretty much destroy a standard 6 Gate push, but it won't really be worth it vs. safer play or even something like a 5-6 Gate Blink timing. You're putting enough into these Roaches that your tech is far enough behind the Protoss that it doesn't really matter that much if you delay his third for a while.

On April 20 2011 09:35 Xapti wrote:
I've started using a similar build (but probably more standard) in ZvP when it appears that they are 3 gating. Trouble is, it's extremely hard to tell, and the build completely relies on no warp gate rushes.

My version of the build rushes roach speed or burrow movement though, not both. It's also faster I think (maybe around 8.5 to10 minute mark) because I get gas quite fast for the lair, get less roaches, and don't get ranged attack upgrade.

Once I accidently built two warrens, and with it I did a double upgrade and won, I tried doing it again, but it seems to be spending too much money and comming too late for it to be as useful.
I think you mean 4 upgrades, because of ranged attack, right?
10:25 sounds a bit fast, but I can't say it's impossible. I open with 11 OP (for around 18 hatch) which is a bit worse economy, but then again I think it's really useful to completely counter any sort of cheese or hatch blocking. How are you going to hatch first when they probe/pylon block the natural?

On April 20 2011 10:08 NDsOdapOp wrote:
i like it, i think the 4 queens are a great anti air and the Protos probably wont attack into that with void rays, and if need be you can always throw down i hydra den which takes almost no time at all to make.

i also think that this build can be used in mroe matchups but im nto sure yet

On April 20 2011 13:46 darkscream wrote:
good slice of cheese, forget the contain and expand its a good all in for a best of series

im sure you can make it work into the normal spanishiwa macro game if you really want tho