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The Inevitable Economic Collapse

Forum Index > Closed
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jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
April 08 2011 19:08 GMT
#1
 
NEW YORK, April 7 (Reuters) - With time running out for a budget deal in Congress, Fitch expects Democratic and Republican leaders will set differences aside and recognize the "dire consequences of failing to raise the debt ceiling in a timely manner."

The ceiling is currently set at $14.294 trillion. As of March 31, the debt subject to that limit totaled $14.218 trillion -- or $76 billion shy of the cap.



"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

-Ben Bernanke, current chairman of the federal reserve, speaking in 2002 (source)




Facing Inevitability


For much of my life, I have had a great passion for the subject of economics. The combination of science, politics, and wealth has always intrigued me greatly. Economics has been known, however, as the "dismal science." I am afraid I am going to be reinforcing that stereotype today. I feel for too long the public has had their head buried in the sand on these issues, and it is time to start raising awareness of an undeniable and frightening fact: That economic collapse and another Depression is inevitable.

In the following post, I will be focusing my attention on the United States economic situation, as that is the area I am most familiar with. However, do not think these issues are isolated to our country alone; they are endemic across much of the world, and economic instability in one nation will easily influence another due to the interconnected nature of the modern economies.

As I know how easily subjects such as these can be treated with sensationalism and paranoia, I've decided to focus my attention simply on the facts at hand. I feel the facts speak for themselves in this matter.



The U.S. Federal Debt - A look at the numbers


According to the United States Department of the Treasury, Bureau of the Public Debt, as of March 25, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.26 trillion and was 97.3% of calender year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) of $14.66 trillion. (source)(source) Given such a number, it does not appear that the problem of debt is insurmountable. Such a percentage of GDP certainly represents a clear problem, but it has not reached a level that will inspire a lack of confidence in U.S. debt and therefore affect our credit rating in the near future.

What will NOT be reported in the official debt numbers, however, is that the United States federal government uses cash-basis, rather than accrual-basis accounting, which is in violation of standard Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), and utilizes a series of accounting labeling tricks which underscore the actual debt owed. In particular, "liabilities" are labeled transfer payments and are not considered a form of the public debt, though they do represent obligations which must be paid at some time in the future. How disingenuous it is to call these "transfer payments" can be seen in the fact that the Social Security payments have historically been used as a general slush fund for spending in the legislature and in fact is NOT transferred to future generations.

The two greatest unfunded liabilities alone, Social Security and Medicare, easily surpass $100 trillion in liability. Add to that prescription drug benefits and a host of other liabilities, and add it to the "official" debt numbers, and the estimates can reach as high as $200 trillion in total federal debt. In other words, several multiples of GDP. The total liability per taxpayer? Prepare yourself... $1,500,000.

How can this be possible? To quote Laurence Kotlikoff of Bloomberg news:

"Simple. We have 78 million baby boomers who, when fully retired, will collect benefits from Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid that, on average, exceed per-capita GDP. The annual costs of these entitlements will total about $4 trillion in today’s dollars. Yes, our economy will be bigger in 20 years, but not big enough to handle this size load year after year.

"This is what happens when you run a massive Ponzi scheme for six decades straight, taking ever larger resources from the young and giving them to the old while promising the young their eventual turn at passing the generational buck."



IMF Analysis


The Selected Issues Paper released by the International Monetary Fund in July of 2010 can be found here, and includes a thorough and technical analysis of the United States Federal deficit and possible solutions for averting the coming financial crisis. To quote:

"Directors welcomed the authorities' commitment to fiscal stabilization, but noted that a larger than budgeted adjustment would be required to stabilize debt-to-GDP.

"The U.S. fiscal gap associated with today's federal fiscal policy is huge for plausible discount rates[...] closing the fiscal gap requires a permanent annual fiscal adjustment equal to about 14 percent of U.S. GDP."

To put this number in perspective, current federal revenue totals approximately 15 percent of GDP. So what the IMF in effect is calling for is an immediate and permanent doubling of our personal income, corporate and federal taxes as well as the payroll levy set down in the Federal Insurance Contribution Act. Such a tax hike would leave the U.S. running a surplus equal to 5 percent of GDP rather than a 9 percent deficit.

The simple fact of the matter is, enacting such policies would be almost guaranteed to crash the entire economy. The number of companies alone in the U.S. whose profit margin is less than such a projected increase in the tax rate reveals the unfeasability of this suggestion. The average American is already struggling under personal debt, how can they be expected to foot the bill either? It would result at the minimum in a decades long recession, at the worst a complete depression.

And how do we honestly expect to elect the politicians who will run on THAT platform? Any politician suggesting the changes that NEED to be made, promising drastic tax increases coupled with drastic spending decreases and a weaker national economy would wait for hell to freeze over before being elected.

To put it bluntly, the U.S. is bankrupt. There is no foreseeable solution to dig us out of the hole we are in. Our economy as it is has been artificially grown through lax interest rate policy set by the Federal Reserve perpetuating decades long mal and overinvestment throughout a long history of "bubbles," and is on weak footing already.

We have continually resorted to the dire measures of inflation, which is nothing more than an indirect form of taxation on all federal reserve note holders, countless "stimulus" bills, and absurd degrees of credit expansion. Not to mention the endless string of bailouts which have been offered to save not only American companies but even entire nations such as Greece! What can be done when the failing organization is "too big to bailout?" What else can be said on the matter?

What baffles me most is that this issue so often takes a backseat to any other. To be honest, nothing could possibly be more important. What matters the events in Libya or health care reform or abortion policy if your children are facing the next Great Depression? We have stolen their future wealth from them, much as was done during the "roaring" 20's.



Non-Federal Debt


The federal debt numbers are of course only a part of the problem. According to the federal reserve, the total personal debt in the United States including mortgages is $16.15 trillion. That's an average debt per citizen of $51,912.(source) You can add that on to the million dollar federal debt share you owe. But wait, let's not forget about the state level. In my home state of California, you can expect an additional $14,800 per citizen. (source)

There is no doubt many states are in a crisis. Their financial woes are complicated by the fact that they cannot print their own money as the previous organization we covered. States have been striving desperately to make the cuts necessary to reduce their budget deficits, but the stranglehold the American unions have on the public sector is seemingly insurmountable. Many states have already entertained the idea of default, relying on the federal government to bail them out as well. This would of course be a disaster due to the loss of confidence in public investments. But more and more it is appearing to be the only answer.

My home state of California is a case in point. We have 8 counties in the state with unemployment rates of over 20 percent. We have a budget deficit over $20 billion and expected to grow. California already has the lowest credit rating of all 50 states, and there are rumors it will go lower. Leaders from both major political parties in California have been increasingly using the word "bankrupt."


"California is deeply in debt. You could say that it's bankrupt." -Jerry Brown, Governor

"We are on the verge of system failure." -Jean Ross, executive director of the California Budget Project

(source)



Be Prepared


The Boy Scout Motto. I have carried the wisdom of those two simple words with me throughout most of my life. Now the question is, given the data we have, how do we prepare?

And this is where once reasonable people turn away from the conversation. They assume that the proper response is no response at all, whether due to despair, apathy, or denial. Anyone proposing perfectly rational responses to the possibility of economic collapse will inevitably be publicly derided. The jokes about preparing your tin foil hats will come out. That of course will not dissuade me.

In my mind, there are three fundamental steps that need to be taken to prepare for such a crises:

1) To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value. This is perhaps the most difficult part of all, as a market crash can literally occur overnight. However, I am certain warning signs will be evident for those who can distingish them. I would personally avoid gold and other precious metals, due to their lack of actual utility apart from the possibility of transaction, which is of course dependent upon a second parties' willingness to accept it.

2) Supplies and education regarding first aid, survival techniques, emergency preparedness, etc. These are of course good things to have regardless of your beliefs on economics.

3) A weapon and the competence to defend yourself. All the preparation in the world can go out the window when you have a gun pointed at you. You may believe that we will peacefully weather the coming storm just as we did the previous Great Depression. I, however, have difficulty accepting the idea that the modern generation will be content to work for pennies and stand in soup lines.


I recognize these statements will be very controversial to the TL community, but after years of formal and independent research I have been unable to reach any other conclusions. For those who agree with these conclusions, I would like to ask why you have not yet done anything about it? I look forward to having an informed discussion.
 
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
April 08 2011 19:10 GMT
#2
Is Glenn Beck secretly a member of TL and nobody knew about it?
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
April 08 2011 19:14 GMT
#3
Can someone more knowledgeable about the US economy tell me how the government is going to pay off trillions in debt? I don't see printing money and inflating the debt away having a big enough impact.
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
April 08 2011 19:14 GMT
#4
On April 09 2011 04:10 MangoTango wrote:
Is Glenn Beck secretly a member of TL and nobody knew about it?


He's transitioning off of Fox... and onto TEAMLIQUID.NET
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
April 08 2011 19:15 GMT
#5
To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value.

Nothing's more tangible than bullets
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 19:16:57
April 08 2011 19:16 GMT
#6
So is this a sign to buy gold and silver?

On April 09 2011 04:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
Show nested quote +
To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value.

Nothing's more tangible than bullets


Well the US does have plenty of those.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
April 08 2011 19:17 GMT
#7
On April 09 2011 04:14 ZeaL. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2011 04:10 MangoTango wrote:
Is Glenn Beck secretly a member of TL and nobody knew about it?


He's transitioning off of Fox... and onto TEAMLIQUID.NET


****.

Someone get Jon Stewart here ASAP!
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
April 08 2011 19:18 GMT
#8
On April 09 2011 04:14 ZeaL. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2011 04:10 MangoTango wrote:
Is Glenn Beck secretly a member of TL and nobody knew about it?


He's transitioning off of Fox... and onto TEAMLIQUID.NET


He clearly sees the value of ESPORTS dollars.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 19:21:24
April 08 2011 19:20 GMT
#9
On April 09 2011 04:16 buhhy wrote:
So is this a sign to buy gold and silver?

Show nested quote +
On April 09 2011 04:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value.

Nothing's more tangible than bullets


Well the US does have plenty of those.


No. Precious metals are useless in an actual economy collapse. They have no real utility for the average person. The best thing to have in a case like that would be salt. It's preservative power makes it far more valuable than gold when no ones has any refrigeration.
Moderator
TadH
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1846 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 19:38:45
April 08 2011 19:38 GMT
#10
They're going to propose a new currency and unified trade between the US, Canada and Mexico. It will be called the Amero, similar to the Euro, it will replace the Canada dollar, the Peso and the American dollar, of course they will buy your existing savings at a fraction of what it's "worth" in exchange for the Amero.



Theoritical wiki

tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
April 08 2011 19:38 GMT
#11
On April 09 2011 04:20 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2011 04:16 buhhy wrote:
So is this a sign to buy gold and silver?

On April 09 2011 04:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value.

Nothing's more tangible than bullets


Well the US does have plenty of those.


No. Precious metals are useless in an actual economy collapse. They have no real utility for the average person. The best thing to have in a case like that would be salt. It's preservative power makes it far more valuable than gold when no ones has any refrigeration.

That might perhaps just slightly be over-the-top.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 19:49:27
April 08 2011 19:44 GMT
#12
On April 09 2011 04:38 tyCe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2011 04:20 Myles wrote:
On April 09 2011 04:16 buhhy wrote:
So is this a sign to buy gold and silver?

On April 09 2011 04:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value.

Nothing's more tangible than bullets


Well the US does have plenty of those.


No. Precious metals are useless in an actual economy collapse. They have no real utility for the average person. The best thing to have in a case like that would be salt. It's preservative power makes it far more valuable than gold when no ones has any refrigeration.

That might perhaps just slightly be over-the-top.


If we're to a point where money(and precious metals) has no value, then electricity, gas, and other normal everyday items wouldn't be available very shortly after that. There's no money to pay people to produce it and those people would too busy keeping themselves secure to worry about it anyway.

edit: Personally, I think a situation like this ever happening is slim to none, but I live in Florida and have experienced situations like this in the days following a hurricane. Even then money doesn't become worthless, but supply can't keep up with demand and if stores weren't already empty before the hurricane, they are right after it(if they can still function that is). An economic collapse would surely cause a similar mass panic, but things wouldn't go back to normal after a week.
Moderator
AZN)Boy
Profile Joined September 2004
United States57 Posts
April 08 2011 19:50 GMT
#13
The only real money in today’s world is in precious metal because of its intrinsic value. The fiat currency will fail due to broken trade, fiscal, are regulatory policies.

This is just the beginning, once the bond bubble burst. Hyperinflation will creep up and most American’s saving will start to evaporate.
~~[For every minutes you spend angry, you lose 60 seconds of happiness]
gosuRob
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States319 Posts
April 08 2011 19:55 GMT
#14
If only America wasn't full of a bunch of sissy's... I for one, couldn't care less about the shit that our government is arguing about regarding the budget. Like planned parenthood.. seriously? Why do we waste money on that kind of shit, is there no consequences for irresponsibility these days? What america needs is sacrifice, but it will be too late before anyone accepts that I think.
Rules? There aren't many rules. You fight mean, you win mean. It takes a certain someone
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
April 08 2011 19:56 GMT
#15
no math involved

this is not economics
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 20:02:30
April 08 2011 19:59 GMT
#16
On April 09 2011 04:44 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2011 04:38 tyCe wrote:
On April 09 2011 04:20 Myles wrote:
On April 09 2011 04:16 buhhy wrote:
So is this a sign to buy gold and silver?

On April 09 2011 04:15 bonifaceviii wrote:
To recognize the signs and symptoms of economic instability and to convert your fiat currency to tangible goods while it still has value.

Nothing's more tangible than bullets


Well the US does have plenty of those.


No. Precious metals are useless in an actual economy collapse. They have no real utility for the average person. The best thing to have in a case like that would be salt. It's preservative power makes it far more valuable than gold when no ones has any refrigeration.

That might perhaps just slightly be over-the-top.


If we're to a point where money(and precious metals) has no value, then electricity, gas, and other normal everyday items wouldn't be available very shortly after that. There's no money to pay people to produce it and those people would too busy keeping themselves secure to worry about it anyway.

I see where you're coming from but I don't think we will ever reach a situation where the US economy completely collapses. Most likely, tax revenue will have to be raised from somewhere to cover the debt, but on a more gradual basis than what you suggest. This might entail a severe downturn initially and then a very prolonged period of economic stagnancy/decline, but I don't think it will ever reach the stage where the US economy completely collapses. However, it would be almost impossible for the US to avoid a prolonged economic downturn in the next 20-30 years. Face it, the US has been running on a bubble for a while, and its decline in the 21st century has been foretold many years ago.

But actually, as I wrote that, I recalled the short-sightedness of all recent financial crises in the US and got a little chill down my spine. Still though, I do not think that the period of inaction required to reach the critical point to trigger a collapse in the US economy will actually eventuate. The government will bite the bullet somewhere down the line. However, if the US government actually does do nothing, then I think there will be far wider consequences than just an economic collapse. It could signal the failure of the democracy/capitalism system of governance/economic system.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
JohnQPublic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States123 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 20:05:10
April 08 2011 20:00 GMT
#17
People have been coming to this conclusion for a long as I have had any interest in it and I assume for basically as long as there has been economics. The fact of the matter is as long as we keep people ignorant of the problems they don't have a much impact as they would have normally. Very little will end up changing in the long run. Whatever problems our economy runs into will be swept under the rug and the burden will fall on the poor.

There is too much wealth in this country in assets beyond the monetary for any sort of shutdown of government. If the stability of the government was ever to be threatened no amount of preparedness in the world will save you.
non sum qualis eram
Charger
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2405 Posts
April 08 2011 20:03 GMT
#18
So let me just make sure I got this correctly....you are telling me that the best thing I can do right now is to clean out my checking and savings account and buy a ton of food, guns, and ammo? What if the economy doesn't crumble and we are in fact just fine? I would be left with no money and a bunch of canned food. At least at that point I'll have a gun to rob people I guess, so that's a plus. Sounds like you better be 110% sure this is happening before taking that leap.

This reminds me so much of the y2k craziness. My uncle bought chickens, food, built a bomb shelter, you name it - and he had worked in the IT field for over a decade by '00! Sure, IF he would have been right, he would have looked like a genius, but instead he looks like a crazy moron who wasted a ton of money on unnecessary things. Its just as much of a gamble (if not more of one) to 'properly' prepare for a huge event like a great depression or y2k.
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.
mustache
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland309 Posts
April 08 2011 20:06 GMT
#19
you're comparing an actual tangible crisis that has been manifesting itself in the world economic crisis, and half of europe going bankrupt with saying the worlds gonna end based on absolutely nothing exept a year change?
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
April 08 2011 20:06 GMT
#20
On April 09 2011 04:56 Caller wrote:
no math involved

this is not economics


Correct. This is rabblerousing fearmongering. Not economics.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
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