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Hey guys,
Just posted my 2nd strategy blog. Here's an excerpt:
ZvP has been a frustrating matchup for me (and for Zerg players in general, I think) for a while. To really understand why that is, though, I think we need to take a long, hard look at what makes the matchup so hard.
1. Easily the first dilemma we run into in ZvP is the difficulty of scouting, coupled with the power of Protoss one base plays. It’s just hard. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of argument there. Sadly, this isn’t going to be our focus today. If you’re struggling with this aspect of ZvP, however, there’s a lot of good content out there to get you started. (I would definitely recommend the 12 Weeks episodes that focuses on 4 gate.
2. Next up, and similar to our first point, is how hard it is for Zerg to be aggressive early in the game, without putting themselves completely all-in. Protoss one-base plays definitely do come at a price, but because Toss units are so hardy, and Zerg units are so fragile, it’s much easier for Protoss to inflict critical damage, get ahead, and then transition into a macro-game, than it would be for a Zerg player trying to apply similar kinds of pressure. Is it impossible? Of course not. But Zerg just lacks the kind of spatial control necessary to play defensively after an aggressive opening. To be more specific, a Protoss player who 4 gates, forces Zerg to make a lot of units, and then falls back to an expansion with cannons and forcefield is a lot safer than a Zerg player who 7 Roach Rushes, picks off a few pylons, and then falls back to an expansion of his own with just roaches and spines to defend.
3. This is the biggy: Attacking into a Protoss player in the mid-game is very difficult. There are very few instances in a game of Starcraft 2 where the Zerg player finds himself in a strong enough position to just ball up and lean on a Protoss opponent. Zerg lacks the range, the front-loaded burst damage, and, again, the spatial control necessary to be able to just clump up and attack. Importantly, I don’t want people to read this and feel like I’m saying Zerg is lacking something here… It’s just one of the issues, and one of our race’s mechanics that we have to address when planning our mid-game.
4. And this is the one everyone is familiar with: Eventually, the Protoss army just gets too big to engage directly, and to be able to kill it, Zerg has to engage it multiple times, and from multiple angles.
But why is #4 such a big issue? Everyone knows the answer: Colossi. Sentries. Void Rays: Big, strong, hard-hitting units that we can’t possibly engage because of how well Toss can control space via forcefield.
Please read the whole thing on my site:
http://evolutioncomplete.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=152&Itemid=789
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Oh, MrBitter, you're such a tease. :p
Off to your site I go...
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Great post, after a game where I once again feel like quitting the game or rolling T or P. I guess us zergs just need to start getting more aggresive again.
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This strategy seems only applicable when the Protoss is sitting back and going for the deathball. We already knew that situations like that required Zerg aggression, but it's nice to have it all laid out like this.
Are there other situations where this strategy is useful?
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Dear Mr. Bitter,
I think I might be falling for you.
Love,
Mattsville
In all seriousness though, BIG thanks for everything you've been doing for the community lately. The Blip videos, the 12 Weeks, the Infestor build...
I know I am not alone when I say it is appreciated....
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Although I do agree with the notion, this is most definitely a 3base vs 3base situation. You won't be able to abuse mobility much when the toss is on 2 bases. I think most zergs have trouble versus a 2 base protoss ( I might be wrong ) , and on 3base situations its kind of a given that you shouldnt just bash armies against eachother.
Its what terran has done versus protoss in the lategame since god knows when, its just silly that zergs haven't looked at that and just stayed on tier 2 for a while, just abusing mobility.
Good post though 
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Reading now, thanks again bitter. You are the only reason I can keep my cool with the swarm.
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One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg...
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On March 21 2011 07:41 Mattsville wrote:
Mr. Bitter,
...
In all seriousness, big thanks for everything you've been doing for the community lately. The videos, the 12 Weeks, the Infestor build. I know I am not alone when I say it is appreciated.
Apreciated it is indeed. Thanks for the efford. I was giving up in ZvP lately, doing all-ins with Hydras every game. I'll try this out if I ever reach late game against toss again, I've been so unmotivated to play lately... This sure will help my mood. Sincere thanks.
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On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg...
Well, I wouldn't say strong.
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What happens when the protoss is going for blink stalkers?
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On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong.
I would...
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On March 21 2011 08:01 facades wrote:
What happens when the protoss is going for blink stalkers?
Blink stalkers splitted up is crap against upgraded roaches (assuming stalkers are upgraded as well) or upgraded hydras, even with blink, as long as you're both at 2/2 (stalkers become worse as upgrades get higher) since it IS 3-4 base game now.
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Yep. Really, it comes down to the sentry. Sentries are awesome in big fights where they completely obliterate enemy concaves, but if Z splits forces, the sentries become a liability. They're too slow to respond quickly, their spells are less powerful at smaller army sizes, and forcefielding well requires 100% focus, so you can't get good, timely forcefields at both fronts. By splitting forces, Z turns P's most powerful unit into a low health, low DPS 100 gas liability.
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On March 21 2011 08:02 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:01 facades wrote:
What happens when the protoss is going for blink stalkers? Blink stalkers splitted up is crap against upgraded roaches (assuming stalkers are upgraded as well) or upgraded hydras, even with blink, as long as you're both at 2/2 (stalkers become worse as upgrades get higher) since it IS 3-4 base game now.
How can you say this? (although I don't know what you mean by splitted up)
WITHOUT blink and WITH range upgrade, hydras are dead even with stalkers, aside from the slower movement speed off creep, and the fact hydras don't have any bonus damage vs armored. Hydralisks also gain less % of damage bonus per attack upgrade compared to stalkers attacking non-armored.
WITH blink, stalkers dominate hydralisks.
When it comes to roaches, they can do rather well if they have burrow, speed, and burrow movement/regen upgrades, and are microed very well, but even then I'd say they will loose. Why? well the stalkers can quite easily focus fire down the roaches before they can burrow, while still being able to blink away their own forces. With roach's slower attack, higher damage, and shorter range (and non-instant attack, though stalkers are the same way) they do not focus fire well at all.
While vs roaches, stalkers' DPS doesn't gain as much per upgrade compared to roaches', their overall effectiveness in large numbers (mid-late game scenarios) improve over time due to their greater range, and health buffer they have to blink with before dying. That is much more important than a 14% damage boost roaches get over stalker when at level 3 attack.
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On March 21 2011 08:01 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:57 iChau wrote:On March 21 2011 07:51 Moja wrote:
One thing to emphasize is how incredibly strong and cheap drop tech + OL speed is for zerg... Well, I wouldn't say strong. I would...
My post was vague lol. Well, when I said that it wasn't strong, I meant that it's not as good as terran drops.
One thing I'm talking about is that you can snipe A LOT faster with marauders than with roaches. Another is that they're incredibly mobile compared to zerg drops.
Zerg drops are still good, but if they get caught, there's a very high chance that you have to drop where you're currently at because a) protoss has blink stalkers b) protoss has phoenixes/void rays for deathball.
Those air units and blink stalkers can easily snipe drops if scouted.
I would say
"One thing to ephasize is how incredibly strong OL drops in the main combined with the basic ground army attacking anywhere else."
If the drop makes it, it's incredibly strong, but another thing to factor is that there's a lot of chokes inside a protoss base because of buildings require pylons (this is why you see buildings spread out within a toss base). If the zerg is caught just when he's about to drop, but the zerg is not at an optimal spot and instead gets choked between buildings, they'll DIE from colossi splash. The void rays/phoenies will clear everything else out.
Even if a terran's medivacs die, the MM can just run around and play ring around the rosy, which roaches, and especially hydras, cannot do.
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Hmm. Good writeup. But spreading your army out will just force a protoss to go into a base trade.
edit: I take that back. If you hit at a good timing before the 3rd has kicked in, the death ball isn't big enough to crush through the entire Zerg base. I might have to think about this.
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MrBitter, this has to be one of the most well-written and helpful posts I've seen in the SC2 strategy forum for a long, long time. Thank you so much, this will certainly make me re-think the way I go about managing my army in ZvP.
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This is a pretty darn good post. Really loving what you're doing for the Zerg community, dood.
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EPT
