I have been playing 3 hatch mutas and as is standard I take my 3rd at another main across the map around when I start my mutas. Most of the time this is fine and my mutas work as intended and keep terran in his base while long enough for me to secure the ramp with lurkers. Sometimes terran will leave their base and try to deny my 3rd before then, but if they're going for the standard 9 minute push I should be (and usually am) able to kill it with just muta/ling.
But sometimes terran delays their tech and just pumps marines out of 4 barracks and tries to deny my 3rd with a much larger ball than normal, and I do not know how to react at all; their ball is large enough that I can't just kill it with just muta/ling and I've never able to delay it enough to get lurkers up in time to save my third.
I've been reacting either by:
Counterattacking with muta/ling. I don't like this because if it doesn't work I've basically lost and if terran is good he'll probably be ready for it and deal with it easily.
Just expanding somewhere else and continuing to play normally. I don't like this because I feel like I'm super behind and have nothing going for me.
Liquipedia suggests that "you will want to get a lot of Sunkens at your natural and go to harass the Terran's base as he won't have that many turrets up with this build" but I worry that whatever damage you do by harassing is not going to be enough to make up for your delayed 3rd.
So: how am I supposed to deal with this sort of play? edit: One other thing I have considered is that I usually make sunkens instead of zerglings to defend before mutas - it's possible that zerglings would be better against this?
I also have some other ZvT questions: 1. When should I be getting my queen's nest? I time it by how far along my lurker upgrade is and I know I should be getting it some time while that upgrade is being researched but when? Is there some correct fixed time, like 25%, or is it something I need to adjust based on what he's doing and if so how? I have the same question for my evo chamber as well. 2. If terran scouts early enough sometimes his SCV blocks my first hatchery at my natural. The only way I know how to deal with this is to just put my hatchery somewhere else and then build my second hatchery at my natural, but I really hate having to do that because it messes me up for the rest of the game to have a hatchery in a different place than I am used to. Is there any other way to deal with an SCV blocking my natural, or do I just have to suck it up and get comfortable playing that way? 3. My APM is around 140-150 and it seems that no matter how much I play that number never goes up. Is that number something that I need to increase in order to improve or should I not be worrying about it? If it is something that I should try to improve how should I go about improving it given that "just play a lot of games" isn't working?
All im going to say is that, a)Im definately wondering on these questions. b) Ignore Apm. My peak was when I did 150 apm. Now i always seem to get higher apm, even though I took a long break and am completely rusty.
First, you can try getting earlier lurkers by building a hydralisk den when you are making the spire and researching lurker upgrade earlier (how early is up to you). It will reduce your mutalisk count but you should be able to get two lurkers morphing at your 3rd base ramp sooner.
Second, you can try killing that army. Depending on your location, you can snipe reinforcing marines and slowly take out marines that are out of position. Flank with mutaling only when you are sure that you will win. The ramp of your 3rd base is also an excellent opportunity to take out a lot of marines as they have to move up in a line.
If you still lose the third base, just keep making only mutalisks and make an all-in attack on the Terran natural when ready.
edit: 1. Build your queen's nest after you start mining your 3rd gas. Build your evo chamber after your hydralisk den finishes. 2. The Terran is probably scouting really early so his eco is a bit delayed as well. When doing 12 hatch, you should send 2 drones (1 to make the hatch) to your natural so you can use both of them to attack the SCV if this happens. Your second hatchery should always be at your natural expansion. Build a spawning pool first if you can't kill the SCV yet and resources are piling up. 3. I can play ZvT just fine with slightly less than 150 apm. Just need a lot of practice playing standard.
Just a little question of my own, as a friend of mine really likes to play this 4 rax style. I almost always go fast upgrades and ultras before defilers after 3 hatch muta because I feel like his lack of tech and small tank numbers will be punished by the ultras.
On March 11 2011 10:17 0mgVitaminE wrote: Just a little question of my own, as a friend of mine really likes to play this 4 rax style. I almost always go fast upgrades and ultras before defilers after 3 hatch muta because I feel like his lack of tech and small tank numbers will be punished by the ultras.
Is this a correct way of thinking?
He'll probably kill you before you even get ultras out
The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
A quick question before going on: do you place your 3rd hatchery in your base or as a 3rd expo? Because if you're placing it as a 3rd expo, then the A-yumi build is sure to work wonders if he scouts it. At that point in time, the counters to 4rax pressure are significantly limited because as far as I know when I do 4rax against Zergs who do this, it feels like build order win.
Moreover, a person that does A-yumi well (*cough* me *cough*) will hide his marines in his main and only pump scvs from his natural to make it seem like he's not cutting anything when he really is. So it's important that you keep track of that kind of stuff with overlords if you're seriously expecting A-yumi.
Also if you're expecting A-yumi, throw down at least five sunken colonies. There are times when even four sunks are insufficient to stop the attack from 4rax, so it's key that you turtle up as necessary. It won't hurt your chances because Terran had to sac economy and tech for this anyway. Don't build Zerglings because they will melt to 4rax.
A good thing to note is that 4rax builds delay ebay for the extra rax, so if the A-yumi fails, then feel free to attack his main.
The main idea is to just scout. Unless you go 2hatch every game, there's really no other way but scouting to effectively block 4rax play.
A reason why Koreans go 2hatch or 9 pool these days is precisely because the timings that are set against 3hatch are ridiculously strong.
Zerg players switch to lurkers after mutalisks for better map control against m&m, but if your muta harass is really good you can skip lurkers and tech directly to ultralisks. There's nothing wrong with preferring to play in a specific way.
This build is hard countered by a quick +1 upgrade into 5 rax though.
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
He's not talking about ayumi. This is 4 rax preasure style which is slower than ayumi and not intended to be an all in bust.
Actually I have a question now as well. What is the bennifet of going 3 rax preasure (like flash does sometimes on fighting spirit) as opposed to 4 rax? VS calm Flash went 3 rax preasure and ended up adding 2 more raxes (total of 5) before adding tanks even though calm went lurkers quickly after the first mutas. 3 rax is a lot riskier and its difficult to see its bennefit
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
A quick question before going on: do you place your 3rd hatchery in your base or as a 3rd expo? Because if you're placing it as a 3rd expo, then the A-yumi build is sure to work wonders if he scouts it. At that point in time, the counters to 4rax pressure are significantly limited because as far as I know when I do 4rax against Zergs who do this, it feels like build order win.
Moreover, a person that does A-yumi well (*cough* me *cough*) will hide his marines in his main and only pump scvs from his natural to make it seem like he's not cutting anything when he really is. So it's important that you keep track of that kind of stuff with overlords if you're seriously expecting A-yumi.
Also if you're expecting A-yumi, throw down at least five sunken colonies. There are times when even four sunks are insufficient to stop the attack from 4rax, so it's key that you turtle up as necessary. It won't hurt your chances because Terran had to sac economy and tech for this anyway. Don't build Zerglings because they will melt to 4rax.
A good thing to note is that 4rax builds delay ebay for the extra rax, so if the A-yumi fails, then feel free to attack his main.
The main idea is to just scout. Unless you go 2hatch every game, there's really no other way but scouting to effectively block 4rax play.
A reason why Koreans go 2hatch or 9 pool these days is precisely because the timings that are set against 3hatch are ridiculously strong.
dunno maybe you should read his post, obvious hes not talking about ayumi.. ><
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
He's not talking about ayumi. This is 4 rax preasure style which is slower than ayumi and not intended to be an all in bust.
Actually I have a question now as well. What is the bennifet of going 3 rax preasure (like flash does sometimes on fighting spirit) as opposed to 4 rax? VS calm Flash went 3 rax preasure and ended up adding 2 more raxes (total of 5) before adding tanks even though calm went lurkers quickly after the first mutas. 3 rax is a lot riskier and its difficult to see its bennefit
1. @Pokebunny and puppykiller: Oooh. 4rax.....deny 3rd......more marines than normal....delay tech.....SOUNDS like A-yumi....eh....mmeehhh.....I don't see why you would go for 4rax pressure against a 3hatch when you could just do the A-yumi build....
The same logic applies here, to be honest. Scout. Place sunkens more than normal. etc. Even if it's a little slower (which I don't understand...if you're pumping from 4rax, why go slower?)....the same things you should be doing to react are similar.
2. A-yumi isn't all-in.
3. 3rax allows you to grab a factory earlier than a 4rax does. 3rax also allows you to get the ebay earlier. Flash does what he does because he's Flash, but normally a 3rax allows you to tech while a 4rax significantly cuts that.
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
He's not talking about ayumi. This is 4 rax preasure style which is slower than ayumi and not intended to be an all in bust.
Actually I have a question now as well. What is the bennifet of going 3 rax preasure (like flash does sometimes on fighting spirit) as opposed to 4 rax? VS calm Flash went 3 rax preasure and ended up adding 2 more raxes (total of 5) before adding tanks even though calm went lurkers quickly after the first mutas. 3 rax is a lot riskier and its difficult to see its bennefit
1. @Pokebunny and puppykiller: Oooh. 4rax.....deny 3rd......more marines than normal....delay tech.....SOUNDS like A-yumi....eh....mmeehhh.....I don't see why you would go for 4rax pressure against a 3hatch when you could just do the A-yumi build....
The same logic applies here, to be honest. Scout. Place sunkens more than normal. etc. Even if it's a little slower (which I don't understand...if you're pumping from 4rax, why go slower?)....the same things you should be doing to react are similar. Talking about sunks is completely offtopic too, the OP is asking about how to hold onto his third in the face of pressure, not "how do I not get my nat busted".
2. A-yumi isn't all-in.
3. 3rax allows you to grab a factory earlier than a 4rax does. 3rax also allows you to get the ebay earlier. Flash does what he does because he's Flash, but normally a 3rax allows you to tech while a 4rax significantly cuts that.
1. Because 4rax pressure against 3hatch puts tons of pressure on a Zerg and can cause the Zerg's third to be denied. Examples: the majority of Flash's TvZs when he was owning everyone going 2rax -> gas -> academy -> engineering bay -> 4rax pressure. All this while transitioning seamlessly into the lategame UNLIKE Ayumi.
2. Ayumi IS pretty much an all-in.
3. Ebay timing is completely dependent on how you want to open in conjunction with mutalisk timing. It has nothing to do with 3rax or 4rax tech because either way you're going to be getting it right at the start going upgrade terran or generally after your academy when going 2rax gas.
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
He's not talking about ayumi. This is 4 rax preasure style which is slower than ayumi and not intended to be an all in bust.
Actually I have a question now as well. What is the bennifet of going 3 rax preasure (like flash does sometimes on fighting spirit) as opposed to 4 rax? VS calm Flash went 3 rax preasure and ended up adding 2 more raxes (total of 5) before adding tanks even though calm went lurkers quickly after the first mutas. 3 rax is a lot riskier and its difficult to see its bennefit
1. @Pokebunny and puppykiller: Oooh. 4rax.....deny 3rd......more marines than normal....delay tech.....SOUNDS like A-yumi....eh....mmeehhh.....I don't see why you would go for 4rax pressure against a 3hatch when you could just do the A-yumi build....
The same logic applies here, to be honest. Scout. Place sunkens more than normal. etc. Even if it's a little slower (which I don't understand...if you're pumping from 4rax, why go slower?)....the same things you should be doing to react are similar. Talking about sunks is completely offtopic too, the OP is asking about how to hold onto his third in the face of pressure, not "how do I not get my nat busted".
2. A-yumi isn't all-in.
3. 3rax allows you to grab a factory earlier than a 4rax does. 3rax also allows you to get the ebay earlier. Flash does what he does because he's Flash, but normally a 3rax allows you to tech while a 4rax significantly cuts that.
1. Because 4rax pressure against 3hatch puts tons of pressure on a Zerg and can cause the Zerg's third to be denied. Examples: the majority of Flash's TvZs when he was owning everyone going 2rax -> gas -> academy -> engineering bay -> 4rax pressure. All this while transitioning seamlessly into the lategame UNLIKE Ayumi.
2. Ayumi IS pretty much an all-in.
3. Ebay timing is completely dependent on how you want to open in conjunction with mutalisk timing. It has nothing to do with 3rax or 4rax tech because either way you're going to be getting it right at the start going upgrade terran or generally after your academy when going 2rax gas.
I stand corrected. While I would beg to differ, it's clear my knowledge is still really insufficient. xD
I was under the impression that Flash was 22 rax --> gas --> academy --> 3rd rax --ebay But I guess not.
I still disagree that Ayumi is all in. While the damage dealt is important, it's not to the point that you lose if A-yumi loses. You still have a good amount of units to repel lots of attacks and tech up.
And I thought ebay timings were different according to builds. o_O
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
He's not talking about ayumi. This is 4 rax preasure style which is slower than ayumi and not intended to be an all in bust.
Actually I have a question now as well. What is the bennifet of going 3 rax preasure (like flash does sometimes on fighting spirit) as opposed to 4 rax? VS calm Flash went 3 rax preasure and ended up adding 2 more raxes (total of 5) before adding tanks even though calm went lurkers quickly after the first mutas. 3 rax is a lot riskier and its difficult to see its bennefit
1. @Pokebunny and puppykiller: Oooh. 4rax.....deny 3rd......more marines than normal....delay tech.....SOUNDS like A-yumi....eh....mmeehhh.....I don't see why you would go for 4rax pressure against a 3hatch when you could just do the A-yumi build....
The same logic applies here, to be honest. Scout. Place sunkens more than normal. etc. Even if it's a little slower (which I don't understand...if you're pumping from 4rax, why go slower?)....the same things you should be doing to react are similar. Talking about sunks is completely offtopic too, the OP is asking about how to hold onto his third in the face of pressure, not "how do I not get my nat busted".
2. A-yumi isn't all-in.
3. 3rax allows you to grab a factory earlier than a 4rax does. 3rax also allows you to get the ebay earlier. Flash does what he does because he's Flash, but normally a 3rax allows you to tech while a 4rax significantly cuts that.
1. Because 4rax pressure against 3hatch puts tons of pressure on a Zerg and can cause the Zerg's third to be denied. Examples: the majority of Flash's TvZs when he was owning everyone going 2rax -> gas -> academy -> engineering bay -> 4rax pressure. All this while transitioning seamlessly into the lategame UNLIKE Ayumi.
2. Ayumi IS pretty much an all-in.
3. Ebay timing is completely dependent on how you want to open in conjunction with mutalisk timing. It has nothing to do with 3rax or 4rax tech because either way you're going to be getting it right at the start going upgrade terran or generally after your academy when going 2rax gas.
I stand corrected. While I would beg to differ, it's clear my knowledge is still really insufficient. xD
I was under the impression that Flash was 22 rax --> gas --> academy --> 3rd rax --ebay But I guess not.
I still disagree that Ayumi is all in. While the damage dealt is important, it's not to the point that you lose if A-yumi loses. You still have a good amount of units to repel lots of attacks and tech up.
And I thought ebay timings were different according to builds. o_O
Ayumi is pretty all in. Good luck finding money to put turrets up while teching(Remember, you cut SCVs too). If it doesn't work, your very likely to lose.
This is actually by far my favorite build TvZ(which i do 99% of my games) just turtle with sunkens and try to harass where you can make sure to tech lurkers asap and always keep track of his army (he can break your sunkens and kill you if you arent paying attention), this is a very good counter to a 2hatch build also, however hsi tech will be delayed so when lurkers are up he wont have vessels for quite a while
also people suggesting fast tech to ultras..vs a build like that the correct push is a mass mnm push before ultras pop(or ultra upgrades are done) so he can add on a couple more barracks and push and kill you before ultras are out, and without swarm lol gg.
On March 11 2011 10:25 Zergneedsfood wrote: The 4rax (I assume is A-yumi) comes right before your mutas pop, so it's important that you scout really well. Keep track of marine count, and his scvs. If you feel unsafe, sack an overlord in the main.
He's not talking about ayumi. This is 4 rax preasure style which is slower than ayumi and not intended to be an all in bust.
Actually I have a question now as well. What is the bennifet of going 3 rax preasure (like flash does sometimes on fighting spirit) as opposed to 4 rax? VS calm Flash went 3 rax preasure and ended up adding 2 more raxes (total of 5) before adding tanks even though calm went lurkers quickly after the first mutas. 3 rax is a lot riskier and its difficult to see its bennefit
3 rax is actually more standard and allows the Terran to tech more quickly to tanks/vessels to break out of lurker contains, stop the Zerg from making mutalisks and regain map control (to take out an expansion).
You could practice muta micro vs MM in open fields and block it like a boss try to save your lings so you can either 1. try to get a runby to delay 2. wait until your mutas whittle down the bio ball enough to finish him off with a muta-ling flank
Also, if his turrets are delayed enough, you can also attempt a 2 base muta finisher. Let your 3rd base be killed so you can delay long enough to get some sunkens at your nat. Meanwhile, go to town in his base. once you get upwards of 15 mutas, you can just keep cycling out low hp ones. If he tries to break your nat.. well there's nothing as fun as muta microing vs stationary marines that are also getting impaled by sunkens. I like to go for fast hive into greater spire to get guardians and since his tech is delayed, if I suicide 2 muta/2scourge-ish to snipe the 1st vessel, it's usually gg. (try to snipe the scvs building fact/starport/science facility)
Obviously taking a delayed 3rd base (just for the gas at least) is never a bad call either. But it's important with this build to not make too many drones. You only have 3 hatches and basically only need to make mutas. Maybe the +1 air attack or carapace. Honestly, this is my favorite build to go against because it comes down to muta micro, which is the only redeeming quality of of my ZvT.
I think people are commenting without watching the reps.
The Terran was cutting some SCVs, at least for sure in the first game. In game 2 he seemed to add some SCVs back into his build. I'd have to rewatch the reps to see exactly.
For those commenting without watching, the Terran is getting 4 rax and decent econ up by around 6:00. Zerg is doing 3 hatch spire 7:00 minute muta, starting 3rd expo (with 4th hatch) around the time he starts mutas.
@OP: I think that a major problem for you as the Zerg player is a lack of information. Since you don't really know what build he's doing you just do your normal thing and try to react to it, but you're dealing with a larger than normal m&m mass so your mutas are not very effective at stalling. Part of the reason why the Terran is able to do all this is that he doesn't have ANY turrets up in his base when your mutas pop out (which is why that suicidal counter actually almost worked in game 3 -- normally it shouldn't). He's pretty much counting on you playing defensively. You needed to get some lings around behind his ball to cut off reinforcements and you needed to try to use your mutas to pressure at his main/nat. You may be better off going for a later 3rd expo. If you see him push out with that much mass you may want to cancel the hatchery and either move it to a less predictable base that he's less likely to scout or just wait until you get lurker tech up.
The Terran's build here is basically taking a lot of risks that are paying off because you're playing his game, not making him play yours.
I Just remembered that the answer to everything is "don't be lazy, watch vods of pros and your game and figure it out yourself".
Flash when doing his 4 rax build (such as in his wcg game on tau) delays his acad upgrades significantly and gets an ebay after his first rax.
3 rax preasure you basicly never see anymore (probably becuase a counter style was developed that isn't well known among people who aren't high level)and despite the fact that it gives you the option of teching faster than 4 rax, flash usually masses barracks before adding a fact. Im going to look it up to see in which instances he adds his facts earlier and in which instances he adds his rax's faster.
1. I need to play better. Well that is not very specific - what I mean is that I need to execute my build more crisply. If I start my hydra den immediately after building 9 mutas, and start my lurker upgrade right when the den pops, and start a hydralisk at my 3rd the instant it's done I might actually get lurkers up in time. The same goes for making my lair and getting out my mutas; obviously these are things I want to do better anyway but in this specific situation they are very important and it shouldn't be too hard to actually do this as long as I focus on it.
2. I think I should send mutas to his base and sunken up my nat in order to take advantage of his lack of turrets, but should I still be trying to save my 3rd with muta/ling before I do that? The obvious trade off is that I hit his base sooner but give up any opportunity to save my 3rd. Is that just a call I need to make when I see how large his ball is, like "oh that's so big no way I'm saving my 3rd"? Should I just always send mutas to his base and then lose if he built turrets? Basically either I can counter-harass and if he doesn't have enough turrets I ought to just win by crippling him or I can stake the game on keeping my 3rd alive, and what I am asking is how do I decide which of those options to choose? One thought I had was to use overlords to check his turret situation but I'm not going to be able to do that every game or on every map.
EPT
But I guess not.
