• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:41
CEST 06:41
KST 13:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers19Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid24
StarCraft 2
General
Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists MaNa leaves Team Liquid Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers INu's Battles#14 <BO.9 2Matches> Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 522 Flip My Base The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss Mutation # 520 Moving Fees
Brood War
General
FlaSh: This Will Be My Final ASL【ASL S21 Ro.16】 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion Data needed
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [ASL21] Ro16 Group C [ASL21] Ro16 Group D
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Diablo IV Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1560 users

[Q][H] ZvT, 4rax 3rd denial - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 14:55 GMT
#21
Since he isn't making any turrets and since he's cutting a few SCV's along the way (although not many), I'd delay the third. I'd have to watch again, but I feel like you should be able to pump drones just a teensy bit harder also. Getting the den before spire finishes so that you can research lurker upgrade with your first 200 gas after your 9 muta also seems like a really good idea to me.

Ideally you'll be able to get a little better vision of his base somehow and maybe poke around a little at his front to figure out what he's doing. I know there's that window where it's really hard to see what the Terran is doing (I have trouble with this as well when I play ZvT, which is why I favor a much more aggressive style despite being more of a defensive macro player by nature) but ideally you don't want to be waiting until he's already pushed out and then going "oh, crap, that's a pretty big m&m ball." If that does happen, you need to be aware of what's going on at his main/nat. His push was arriving outside your base right at the moment your mutas were popping out and there was no way to clear it with ling/muta. You were forced to sunken up in all 3 games. So you need to use that to your advantage. Like I said you need to get behind him, cut off reinforcements, force him to spend money on turrets and while this is happening you might not need such a large army of lings. Even if you canceled your third initially, the drone should still be somewhere outside your base area, you need to either sneak a couple lurks to him or else move him to a base less likely to be scanned.

Also, if I'm remembering right, in the first game I think it was you actually did manage to produce enough ling/muta that with proper surround you probably could have killed him, but instead you fought him while he was making his way up the ramp to your third and you couldn't swarm him. You'd have been better off sacrificing that base and then swarming him as he tried to leave (especially since that game he cut a lot of SCVs).
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
March 11 2011 15:31 GMT
#22
Getting my den quicker or delaying my third might be good responses to this style of play you are telling me to make adjustments based on what he is doing at a time in the game when I will never have that information.
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 16:59 GMT
#23
It's difficult to get information but not impossible. Poke around at his front a little more with lings and if you can you may wish to try a ling run-bye. Also it's important to take note of his turret timing because that will tell you a lot. You may wish to move around the OL you get at the entrance to his base to try to see as much as you can (obviously be careful -_-). Don't take the attitude that it's impossible to adjust or to do better. If you really feel that way then give up trying to play a defensive macro oriented game of SC.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
March 11 2011 17:10 GMT
#24
I never make more than 4 lings before mutas; I can suicide a ling but if he hides his marine count I'm never going to know about it until he moves out.

I would be extremely surprised if it was just the case that if he does this style of play and I don't realize it until he moves out he should just win every single game because I am fucked. I cannot depend on knowing exactly what he is doing before he moves out and as such I am looking for advice on how to adjust my play after that point.
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 18:11 GMT
#25
If his build is catching you by surprise every time then you are going to lose (almost) every time. What you're asking for is, "How can I make a come back when I'm 90% certainly fucked?" Obviously there is no foolproof scouting technique, but if you don't find a way to get a sense for his marine count and if you don't find a way to get a better sense for when he starts his turrets then you simply are not going to overcome this. Period.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 18:31:55
March 11 2011 18:30 GMT
#26
This was my favorite style to play when I was still playing. I'm not sure if people are still using the flash/forgg opener but you don't have marine range when you first move out. So your first round of mutas can do more damage then you think (well limited by +1 but range is pretty darn big).

The way to beat this is by winning the micro battle in the center. Fight marines vs mutas until you can get enough lings for a surround all the while teching to lurkers. If he gets overeager and moves too far out in the map, cut reinforcements. This strategy requires terran to constantly reinforce his center position or risk getting contained by upcoming lurkers. Streams of units will come out of his base periodically and you should try your best to catch them.

Watch for +1 on the marines with a scouting zergling or overlord because when it finishes, terran should be moving out. Prep with ling overproduction. You can also gas steal even if you see 1 barracks. Again, I'm not sure if the same build order is used, but terran needs to gets gas early to start up his +1 attack. If gas is somewhat exposed, you can peak in and see if he is mining. Again going back to the build I took from Flash, you need to cut gas after your first 100 to get up proper infrastructure without cutting scvs. Then later you resume gas for your stim, range, and medics.

Lastly is a seemingly unnecessary bunker. If you aren't showing pressure and he bunkers, that may indicate 4 rax. This build stays on 1 barracks longer then normal (rax -> cc -> gas -> ebay ->2nd rax) as opposed to the standard (rax -> cc - >2nd rax) so he is vulnerable to ling busts. Not very useful on iccup as everyone is wary of lings busts, but is a useful note.
Eun_Star
Profile Joined April 2010
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 23:54:42
March 11 2011 23:40 GMT
#27
watched a bit of the first replay, I'll keep adding on when I get to the rest.

I'm a D terran, so it is possible that I'm talking nonsense.

With mutas and lings, and proper micro, you should be able to delay the m&m forces without delaying your third (your mutas were flying over the marines' heads. at that point, you're incredibly behind in the game. luckily he wasn't focusing his attack on a single muta, or microing in general). Just a word of advice, if the terran is roaming around the map like a madman with huge m&m forces, you want those lurkers to pop at your expansion. If you delay the terran enough, you should be able to form lurker eggs at the ramp (micro with mutas at the top of the ramp too), if not have lurkers buried there already.
if you have watched the replay, you'll see that the terran was not prepared for muta harass at his base when your mutas popped. if you go in with mutas when his m&m forces are out on the field, he has two choices.
1) go for an attack at your natural
2) come back to defend his base
this is why scouting is crucial and as a zerg, you NEED to have map control. send a few zerglings here and there to know what's coming. also, i was disturbed by the fact that you didn't have an overlord watching the opponent's nat. you need that overlord to prepare yourself to add sunkens, etc.

if the terran is going for an attack at your natural, put down 4~5 sunkens and backstab his units with zerglings. if needed, pull drones. remember that terran's busy moving scv's, building turrets with your mutas at his base. if he masses turrets at his natural, destroy his tech. not getting that +1 upgrade will hurt him a lot.

most of what I said has been said already...lol
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
StarCraft Evolution League #20
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 223
ProTech126
Nina 114
StarCraft: Brood War
Aegong 286
Icarus 12
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm611
League of Legends
JimRising 773
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1555
Other Games
summit1g8892
C9.Mang0431
WinterStarcraft429
ViBE48
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1350
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 87
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 18
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt606
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
6h 19m
Classic vs SHIN
MaxPax vs Percival
herO vs Clem
ByuN vs Rogue
Ladder Legends
10h 19m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
10h 19m
BSL
14h 19m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 5h
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
1d 6h
Ladder Legends
1d 10h
BSL
1d 14h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs hero
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Leta vs YSC
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Escore
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W4
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.