• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:47
CEST 02:47
KST 09:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes56BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
ASL20 General Discussion Soulkey on ASL S20 BW General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group C [ASL20] Ro16 Group D Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1465 users

[Q][H] ZvT, 4rax 3rd denial - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 14:55 GMT
#21
Since he isn't making any turrets and since he's cutting a few SCV's along the way (although not many), I'd delay the third. I'd have to watch again, but I feel like you should be able to pump drones just a teensy bit harder also. Getting the den before spire finishes so that you can research lurker upgrade with your first 200 gas after your 9 muta also seems like a really good idea to me.

Ideally you'll be able to get a little better vision of his base somehow and maybe poke around a little at his front to figure out what he's doing. I know there's that window where it's really hard to see what the Terran is doing (I have trouble with this as well when I play ZvT, which is why I favor a much more aggressive style despite being more of a defensive macro player by nature) but ideally you don't want to be waiting until he's already pushed out and then going "oh, crap, that's a pretty big m&m ball." If that does happen, you need to be aware of what's going on at his main/nat. His push was arriving outside your base right at the moment your mutas were popping out and there was no way to clear it with ling/muta. You were forced to sunken up in all 3 games. So you need to use that to your advantage. Like I said you need to get behind him, cut off reinforcements, force him to spend money on turrets and while this is happening you might not need such a large army of lings. Even if you canceled your third initially, the drone should still be somewhere outside your base area, you need to either sneak a couple lurks to him or else move him to a base less likely to be scanned.

Also, if I'm remembering right, in the first game I think it was you actually did manage to produce enough ling/muta that with proper surround you probably could have killed him, but instead you fought him while he was making his way up the ramp to your third and you couldn't swarm him. You'd have been better off sacrificing that base and then swarming him as he tried to leave (especially since that game he cut a lot of SCVs).
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
March 11 2011 15:31 GMT
#22
Getting my den quicker or delaying my third might be good responses to this style of play you are telling me to make adjustments based on what he is doing at a time in the game when I will never have that information.
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 16:59 GMT
#23
It's difficult to get information but not impossible. Poke around at his front a little more with lings and if you can you may wish to try a ling run-bye. Also it's important to take note of his turret timing because that will tell you a lot. You may wish to move around the OL you get at the entrance to his base to try to see as much as you can (obviously be careful -_-). Don't take the attitude that it's impossible to adjust or to do better. If you really feel that way then give up trying to play a defensive macro oriented game of SC.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
March 11 2011 17:10 GMT
#24
I never make more than 4 lings before mutas; I can suicide a ling but if he hides his marine count I'm never going to know about it until he moves out.

I would be extremely surprised if it was just the case that if he does this style of play and I don't realize it until he moves out he should just win every single game because I am fucked. I cannot depend on knowing exactly what he is doing before he moves out and as such I am looking for advice on how to adjust my play after that point.
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 18:11 GMT
#25
If his build is catching you by surprise every time then you are going to lose (almost) every time. What you're asking for is, "How can I make a come back when I'm 90% certainly fucked?" Obviously there is no foolproof scouting technique, but if you don't find a way to get a sense for his marine count and if you don't find a way to get a better sense for when he starts his turrets then you simply are not going to overcome this. Period.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 18:31:55
March 11 2011 18:30 GMT
#26
This was my favorite style to play when I was still playing. I'm not sure if people are still using the flash/forgg opener but you don't have marine range when you first move out. So your first round of mutas can do more damage then you think (well limited by +1 but range is pretty darn big).

The way to beat this is by winning the micro battle in the center. Fight marines vs mutas until you can get enough lings for a surround all the while teching to lurkers. If he gets overeager and moves too far out in the map, cut reinforcements. This strategy requires terran to constantly reinforce his center position or risk getting contained by upcoming lurkers. Streams of units will come out of his base periodically and you should try your best to catch them.

Watch for +1 on the marines with a scouting zergling or overlord because when it finishes, terran should be moving out. Prep with ling overproduction. You can also gas steal even if you see 1 barracks. Again, I'm not sure if the same build order is used, but terran needs to gets gas early to start up his +1 attack. If gas is somewhat exposed, you can peak in and see if he is mining. Again going back to the build I took from Flash, you need to cut gas after your first 100 to get up proper infrastructure without cutting scvs. Then later you resume gas for your stim, range, and medics.

Lastly is a seemingly unnecessary bunker. If you aren't showing pressure and he bunkers, that may indicate 4 rax. This build stays on 1 barracks longer then normal (rax -> cc -> gas -> ebay ->2nd rax) as opposed to the standard (rax -> cc - >2nd rax) so he is vulnerable to ling busts. Not very useful on iccup as everyone is wary of lings busts, but is a useful note.
Eun_Star
Profile Joined April 2010
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 23:54:42
March 11 2011 23:40 GMT
#27
watched a bit of the first replay, I'll keep adding on when I get to the rest.

I'm a D terran, so it is possible that I'm talking nonsense.

With mutas and lings, and proper micro, you should be able to delay the m&m forces without delaying your third (your mutas were flying over the marines' heads. at that point, you're incredibly behind in the game. luckily he wasn't focusing his attack on a single muta, or microing in general). Just a word of advice, if the terran is roaming around the map like a madman with huge m&m forces, you want those lurkers to pop at your expansion. If you delay the terran enough, you should be able to form lurker eggs at the ramp (micro with mutas at the top of the ramp too), if not have lurkers buried there already.
if you have watched the replay, you'll see that the terran was not prepared for muta harass at his base when your mutas popped. if you go in with mutas when his m&m forces are out on the field, he has two choices.
1) go for an attack at your natural
2) come back to defend his base
this is why scouting is crucial and as a zerg, you NEED to have map control. send a few zerglings here and there to know what's coming. also, i was disturbed by the fact that you didn't have an overlord watching the opponent's nat. you need that overlord to prepare yourself to add sunkens, etc.

if the terran is going for an attack at your natural, put down 4~5 sunkens and backstab his units with zerglings. if needed, pull drones. remember that terran's busy moving scv's, building turrets with your mutas at his base. if he masses turrets at his natural, destroy his tech. not getting that +1 upgrade will hurt him a lot.

most of what I said has been said already...lol
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 13m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft297
SteadfastSC 152
SpeCial 109
RuFF_SC2 86
CosmosSc2 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 723
Shuttle 450
Aegong 74
Vindicta 6
Dota 2
monkeys_forever915
NeuroSwarm163
League of Legends
JimRising 879
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K445
Fnx 180
PGG 47
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King37
Other Games
summit1g6838
shahzam982
C9.Mang0235
Trikslyr53
ViBE42
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta32
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 17
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5166
Other Games
• Scarra1239
• imaqtpie1189
• Shiphtur220
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
9h 13m
Zoun vs Classic
Map Test Tournament
10h 13m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 2h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 7h
RSL Revival
1d 9h
Reynor vs Cure
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.