• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:27
CEST 21:27
KST 04:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play2Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 22-28): Zergs thrive in new patch2[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)97ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo40Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play Is the larve respawn broken? Weekly Cups (June 22-28): Zergs thrive in new patch Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) INu's Battles#17 <BO.9> Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All
Brood War
General
ProGamer Paychecks Story BW General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Best thing happen to StarCraft since Remastered? Data needed
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL22] GosuLeague Casts - Tue & Thu 22:00 CEST
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration?
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
[94721]Better Good-Health Signs Than 3-15 Bans/Yea TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Listen To The Coaches!
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4716 users

[Q][H] ZvT, 4rax 3rd denial - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 14:55 GMT
#21
Since he isn't making any turrets and since he's cutting a few SCV's along the way (although not many), I'd delay the third. I'd have to watch again, but I feel like you should be able to pump drones just a teensy bit harder also. Getting the den before spire finishes so that you can research lurker upgrade with your first 200 gas after your 9 muta also seems like a really good idea to me.

Ideally you'll be able to get a little better vision of his base somehow and maybe poke around a little at his front to figure out what he's doing. I know there's that window where it's really hard to see what the Terran is doing (I have trouble with this as well when I play ZvT, which is why I favor a much more aggressive style despite being more of a defensive macro player by nature) but ideally you don't want to be waiting until he's already pushed out and then going "oh, crap, that's a pretty big m&m ball." If that does happen, you need to be aware of what's going on at his main/nat. His push was arriving outside your base right at the moment your mutas were popping out and there was no way to clear it with ling/muta. You were forced to sunken up in all 3 games. So you need to use that to your advantage. Like I said you need to get behind him, cut off reinforcements, force him to spend money on turrets and while this is happening you might not need such a large army of lings. Even if you canceled your third initially, the drone should still be somewhere outside your base area, you need to either sneak a couple lurks to him or else move him to a base less likely to be scanned.

Also, if I'm remembering right, in the first game I think it was you actually did manage to produce enough ling/muta that with proper surround you probably could have killed him, but instead you fought him while he was making his way up the ramp to your third and you couldn't swarm him. You'd have been better off sacrificing that base and then swarming him as he tried to leave (especially since that game he cut a lot of SCVs).
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
March 11 2011 15:31 GMT
#22
Getting my den quicker or delaying my third might be good responses to this style of play you are telling me to make adjustments based on what he is doing at a time in the game when I will never have that information.
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 16:59 GMT
#23
It's difficult to get information but not impossible. Poke around at his front a little more with lings and if you can you may wish to try a ling run-bye. Also it's important to take note of his turret timing because that will tell you a lot. You may wish to move around the OL you get at the entrance to his base to try to see as much as you can (obviously be careful -_-). Don't take the attitude that it's impossible to adjust or to do better. If you really feel that way then give up trying to play a defensive macro oriented game of SC.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
March 11 2011 17:10 GMT
#24
I never make more than 4 lings before mutas; I can suicide a ling but if he hides his marine count I'm never going to know about it until he moves out.

I would be extremely surprised if it was just the case that if he does this style of play and I don't realize it until he moves out he should just win every single game because I am fucked. I cannot depend on knowing exactly what he is doing before he moves out and as such I am looking for advice on how to adjust my play after that point.
brood war for life, brood war forever
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
March 11 2011 18:11 GMT
#25
If his build is catching you by surprise every time then you are going to lose (almost) every time. What you're asking for is, "How can I make a come back when I'm 90% certainly fucked?" Obviously there is no foolproof scouting technique, but if you don't find a way to get a sense for his marine count and if you don't find a way to get a better sense for when he starts his turrets then you simply are not going to overcome this. Period.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 18:31:55
March 11 2011 18:30 GMT
#26
This was my favorite style to play when I was still playing. I'm not sure if people are still using the flash/forgg opener but you don't have marine range when you first move out. So your first round of mutas can do more damage then you think (well limited by +1 but range is pretty darn big).

The way to beat this is by winning the micro battle in the center. Fight marines vs mutas until you can get enough lings for a surround all the while teching to lurkers. If he gets overeager and moves too far out in the map, cut reinforcements. This strategy requires terran to constantly reinforce his center position or risk getting contained by upcoming lurkers. Streams of units will come out of his base periodically and you should try your best to catch them.

Watch for +1 on the marines with a scouting zergling or overlord because when it finishes, terran should be moving out. Prep with ling overproduction. You can also gas steal even if you see 1 barracks. Again, I'm not sure if the same build order is used, but terran needs to gets gas early to start up his +1 attack. If gas is somewhat exposed, you can peak in and see if he is mining. Again going back to the build I took from Flash, you need to cut gas after your first 100 to get up proper infrastructure without cutting scvs. Then later you resume gas for your stim, range, and medics.

Lastly is a seemingly unnecessary bunker. If you aren't showing pressure and he bunkers, that may indicate 4 rax. This build stays on 1 barracks longer then normal (rax -> cc -> gas -> ebay ->2nd rax) as opposed to the standard (rax -> cc - >2nd rax) so he is vulnerable to ling busts. Not very useful on iccup as everyone is wary of lings busts, but is a useful note.
Eun_Star
Profile Joined April 2010
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 23:54:42
March 11 2011 23:40 GMT
#27
watched a bit of the first replay, I'll keep adding on when I get to the rest.

I'm a D terran, so it is possible that I'm talking nonsense.

With mutas and lings, and proper micro, you should be able to delay the m&m forces without delaying your third (your mutas were flying over the marines' heads. at that point, you're incredibly behind in the game. luckily he wasn't focusing his attack on a single muta, or microing in general). Just a word of advice, if the terran is roaming around the map like a madman with huge m&m forces, you want those lurkers to pop at your expansion. If you delay the terran enough, you should be able to form lurker eggs at the ramp (micro with mutas at the top of the ramp too), if not have lurkers buried there already.
if you have watched the replay, you'll see that the terran was not prepared for muta harass at his base when your mutas popped. if you go in with mutas when his m&m forces are out on the field, he has two choices.
1) go for an attack at your natural
2) come back to defend his base
this is why scouting is crucial and as a zerg, you NEED to have map control. send a few zerglings here and there to know what's coming. also, i was disturbed by the fact that you didn't have an overlord watching the opponent's nat. you need that overlord to prepare yourself to add sunkens, etc.

if the terran is going for an attack at your natural, put down 4~5 sunkens and backstab his units with zerglings. if needed, pull drones. remember that terran's busy moving scv's, building turrets with your mutas at his base. if he masses turrets at his natural, destroy his tech. not getting that +1 upgrade will hurt him a lot.

most of what I said has been said already...lol
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
17:00
S6 Europe Server Qualifier
SteadfastSC416
TKL 293
IndyStarCraft 244
EnkiAlexander 64
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 657
SteadfastSC 416
TKL 293
IndyStarCraft 244
Railgan 37
RushiSC 27
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3062
ggaemo 314
Snow 242
firebathero 230
Dewaltoss 124
hero 88
Movie 40
Aegong 31
Bale 5
Dota 2
Gorgc3961
singsing2507
Counter-Strike
fl0m1637
Other Games
summit1g4429
Grubby2852
FrodaN1177
Beastyqt669
ceh9648
mouzStarbuck250
C9.Mang0186
Trikslyr55
UpATreeSC52
Mew2King34
JuggernautJason23
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream343
Other Games
BasetradeTV215
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 69
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie790
• Shiphtur353
Upcoming Events
Bombastic Starleague
33m
PiGosaur Cup
4h 33m
Kung Fu Cup
15h 33m
Replay Cast
1d 4h
CrankTV Team League
1d 15h
Bombastic Starleague
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
HomeStory Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
HomeStory Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
HomeStory Cup
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-29
Douyu Cup 2026
Murky Cup 2026

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
SCTL 2026 Spring
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
ASL Season 22:Wild Card Qualifier
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.