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[G]PvT High Templar Build Order

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Snapshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
February 17 2011 19:29 GMT
#1
The Welcome
Hello everyone! I'm Snapshot, an avid theorycrafter and explorer. I really love coming up with new ways to play games, and I really believe I have stumbled upon (through many many many hours of extensive testing, and order building) a very effective HT-into robo build. I have created a video explaining everything found below, as well as examples of how this build works, and when you need to change things. This is a very fluid build and really allows for a lot of decision making based on what the opposing T is doing, before they even get there (or to your base!) I wasn't sure whether or not to put the [G] tag in the title however before any mods get angry please note I have put an extreme amount of playtesting into this build and truly believe it to be solid. However I am only silver so my opponents are generally rough around the edges. This is why I am posting this build, I'd love for some very high level players to test it out and see how they like it!

The Video Version
+ Show Spoiler +


This is the post, only in a convenient video format. Just about 10 minutes long. I highly suggest watching this, as I think I speak better than I write!


The What
+ Show Spoiler +

What is this build? This is a build focused on advancing tech and defending early pressure. Then later, it is a harass and anti-harass build that is fluid because of many warpgates and limited reliability (in the early stages) on the robo. Early game this means lots of sentries and zealots; few if any stalkers. By the 10 minute mark however there will be more high templar then you know what to do with.

Also this is made specifically to hard counter the 3rax push, as well as almost any bio play.


The Reason
+ Show Spoiler +

-Terran 3 rax timing push means no tech, so if you can hold it off you are at an advantage.
Any bio play will be significantly weaker against this build.

-This build allows an often hard to reach tech to a great unit (the high templar), made from the humble gateway allowing for warp-ins.
Free the robo for immortals rather than faster colossus, with no air targetable unit-no need to worry about air.

-Actively deny and deflect drops, while successfully pulling off your own. (Read-before Terran gets Anti-Air, thus making it tougher for them to get it, and delaying the AA or at the least forcing turrets)
Very early HT drops (come on, you know you want to!)

-8:00min-ish expand that is protected by your tech heavier army.
Every unit counts, as time goes on the investment into leg speed pays for itself more and more. Early investment means maximum benefit. Same for templar archives, and storm. Exploiting this benefit to your advantage is a must.


The Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

This is not a rush build, to a degree, as at any moment you can safely switch out if they come to attack.

9 pylon (scout)
(chrono on nex)
12 Gateway
13 Gas
16 Cyber Core
******
16 Gas
19 Twilight Council
19 Warp gate
Leg Spead
Sentry
2 more gates
Archives and storm ASAP
******At this point you can opt to switch out of the build, if you think they are rushing to banshees drop a robo and 2 gates.

If needed after the core pops you can chrono out a stalker for defense, however the chrono will be much better spent on probe production. Also a stalker will delay legs from 6:48 to about 7:10 as you will not have gas for the legs (200/200)


The Timings
+ Show Spoiler +

Leg speed pops-6:48
WG-pops 5:58
Templar Archives-8:25
Storm-10:02 (can be earlier with chronos)


The "What needs to be seen"
+ Show Spoiler +

If you believe the opponent is going a bio heavy comp- or -fast expanding this is a great time. However, any kind of 2rax rush will be difficult to fend off, and if one is scouted your best bet is to dropp 2 gates and start making stalkers / sentries.

Best thing to see is one or no gas, and no hint towards 2 rax early aggression. Also heavy tech (like banshees) means limited defense and a weak early stage opponent (if you play this build well there is no reason to get banshee rushed as long as you scout a hint of it.)


The "When its a bad idea"
+ Show Spoiler +

This build is a bad idea against an opposing Terran rush build, as you will not have very much in the beginning. You can switch out of this, however you will be slightly delayed so scouting his push is an absolute must. On average about 20 seconds of forewarning is the best, however more likely 10 should be enough to start getting precautions in action. (Read-mass sentries to block ramp)


The Strategy
+ Show Spoiler +

You've spotted the Terran going for bio-play, good! If tanks are mixed in, opt for a couple of stalkers and make sure you have at least 2-3 sentries. As you won't have HTs for a while you must ensure your comp is good compared to theirs.

Remember you are playing slightly greedy teching leg speed for zealots, then going for templar archives. Going straight for archives is practically suicide. Alternatively you can go for blink play which may be more fluid moving, however stalkers walk much faster than HTs, so the army splits very very fast. Also, the zealots are really there to block the Terran from moving freely with his units as a zealot with leg surround is hard to move out of-followed by a suicide storm will ensure max DPS against Terran units (this will damage your zealots, but because this build is so lean you will have no problem doing so). Initially combine your HTs into archons as you pop storm (lacking that initial 25 energy it is very unlikely they will get more than one storm off).

Scout. Scout. Scout. Then scout some more. You should keep a probe outside of their base just running up the ramp to see what they have. You also want one there to see when and if they move out, whether they expo, and when they are at your front step.

If you are getting a bad feeling, cannot break their ramp, and think they may be going tech to cloak, a robo is not only a good idea but can also be supported with 3 gates churning out sentries and occasional HTs. This will allow your HTs to have enough energy later for 1 storm and 1 feedback which is extremely crucial for drop denial.

If they are going a tech heavy route then your best bet is to start moving out about 15 seconds before leg speed is done. This will allow you to be at their base, fighting the smallest amount of marines possible. If they are bunkered this will be just as easy, make sure to use GS. Remember you must punish them now and try to delay any tech by forcing more marines or marauders.

Your storm tech will be finishing around the 10:00 minute mark, with an expansion at around the 7:00-8:00 minute mark. This means your HTs will be kicking into full attack, while being able to immediately tech to colossus. This makes for a devastating ground army against a bio Terran, or even mixed unit comp Terran (feedback is amazing against many units).

This becomes more difficult against ghost play, however that is why immortals and colossus supplements are needed. as the HTs are mostly for drops and denying drops.

After researching storm, your robo should start pumping out 3-4 observers, then start on immortals as this is most likely the time you will be able to do so.

Denying Drops and the HT mobility theory

As mobility is an essential part of this build you must be constantly dropping, and denying drops. 1 stalker and 1 ht can outright kill a spotted medivac. Since you got your HTs very early you can feedback, then snipe the medivac with your stalker. You will probably not outright kill the medivac with the feedback however it will most likely be very low. If not your HT should have enough for storm right after anyway.

Your army is extremely mobile, so much so that a warp prism will allow insane amounts of harass. If you expanded to 6 warpgates and 1 robo-colossus you can place 4 HT in the prism, and warp in 6 additional units to really get insane amounts of damage done. Warping in 6 sentries will allow you to completely forcefield the mineral line and drop storms. The sentries will be a huge loss however recovering that many scvs will be extremely difficult. It is the highest priority to keep your HTs alive, each one can eventually recover their energy or be morphed into archons. This is a tricky or, archons for a larger mech play (absorbs damage great, while storm does less) ; keep the HTs for a heavier bio play.

Mid-Late Game Tactics
After pushing out and securing your natural, you should be teching towards colossus immediately. This will ensure your tech advantage assuming your opponent stays bio. A heavier mech play means forgo the colossus for more immortals and delaying that tech until you can successfully stave off their aggression. Remember, they must have gone MMM in the beginning for you to be choosing this build, so that means any significant tech change (adding more factories) will be delaying them allowing you to take another base.

Always deny their expos, often a hidden expo will be risked as anything else will be easy for you to completely shut down (outside of their natural) keeping them on 2 base is the point of this build, and punishing them every time they expand, or tech.

Constant harass is a must, warp prisms 2 at a time, even random tech to DTs so that you can snipe units here and there as well as force turrets so they do not have to waste so many scans.


The Replay Gallery
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140794-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
Replay 1: I really have no clue what this player was doing, I think he thought I was going to DT rush him and freaked out. One benefit about the build I guess. I'm not sure exactly what happens, but I think it shows nicely that some zealots with leg speed are quite good at rushing in.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140799-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
Replay 2: More on the execution and denial of a (very hard ai) mech focused army. The siege tank is in decent positioning, and a second one comes quickly. I really believe this scenario works in my favor because I have more time to warp in units and the splash is dealt almost instantly to the Terran's units as much as my own. I believe I lose this one, however I was only practicing the build in this, not planning on continuing after their first push.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140795-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
Replay 3: This is a great example as to a marauder 2 rax push. After he fails to kill me off because of my early scouting it, I am able to drop 2 gateways and have warp gate finish just in time to stop any further aggression of his. I end up winning because of my significant lead of harvesters.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140787-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war
Replay 4: This is actually the best match I've had with this build. Normally things will happen where I either switch out of the build (they are going too heavy mech) or I am just not being matched with even opponents. This Terran fast expands off of 1 rax into a 2 rax build. I really think there wasn't much they could have done to better their chances of holding longer.


I would love to see what higher level players say about this, I am sure that as you move up this becomes less and less viable; however I must say at my level I really don't see many weak spots when you have scouted correctly. Any fast build counters this so just blindly playing this build will get you many losses. So far, the worst case scenario I have seen is that I have no choice but to allow the scout to see me drop the council. This could be prevented with a zealot chrono-ed out and a partial wall off however. Once again, if you scout well this build is outstanding.

When not scouted, this build really seems to shine since it can be turned from a tech oriented build to an attack oriented build. Skip the fast archive for another gate / earlier robo and you can really put serious pressure on the opponent with prisms and leg speed zealots.

And the final kicker of all of this? If it is scouted, it really looks a lot like a DT rush. I've seen a couple of opponents opt for fast turrets, delaying them significantly. 2 turrets alone can offset marine production enough to take the game with the first push (more so from a tech oriented Terran)

One last major note- please realize that zealots with leg speed are a lot like zerglings, they need a full surround to be put to best use. Engaging on your ramp is stupid, allow the Terran to come up all the way (you need to keep all buildings away from your ramp) this way you have the ability to still cut off their troops with a FF, but now you can get a surround.

Silver League Player - Snapshot
Silmakuoppaanikinko
Profile Joined November 2010
799 Posts
February 17 2011 19:34 GMT
#2
So, if I read this correctly, start leg speed before a single attacking unit right and your first attacking unit is a sentry?

I have some minor degrees of doubt of the validity of this build against users who make attacking units.
Workers and town centres are the ultimate counter to turtles.
.Aar
Profile Joined September 2010
2177 Posts
February 17 2011 19:37 GMT
#3
Yes yes yes yes yes. More HTs please.

I was considering switching to Toss basically because of the ideas you described. High Templars are awesome. A playstyle of trying to tech to HT while holding off pressure would be so epic in terms of connection to lore, too..
now run into the setting sun, and suffer, but don't mess up your hair.
ciaNo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Italy123 Posts
February 17 2011 19:40 GMT
#4
More like when protoss gets HT u cant win anymore
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
February 17 2011 19:40 GMT
#5
Sooo uhhh, this won't work if they try to build units at any point... Just saying.

1 base HT doesn't work, not enough gas, not enough army, takes too long.
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
Snapshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
February 17 2011 19:43 GMT
#6
If you watch the replays you will see opportune times to create attack units, and in fact zealots start popping out around the same time you start leg speed. You are able to make attack units if you need, however every gas based unit you make will delay all of your gas based research. It is up to you to decide if a threat is imminent or not

I.E. 1 stalker will delay legs ~15-20 seconds. One Sentry by ~30-40 seconds. If you feel the sentry is more valuable than of course, pop out a sentry. However the upgrade really does take top priority as this will let you defend most pressure at the 6:50-7:00min mark.
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
February 17 2011 19:44 GMT
#7
How exactly do you fend off 2 marauder 1 marine 1 scv bunker in your base push? This makes no sense.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Snapshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 19:48:37
February 17 2011 19:45 GMT
#8
This isn't 1base Ht and you can produce out of the three warp gates without skipping cycles. This is 3 gate zealot with legs, into HT. You then take an immediate expansion while pushing.

Edit**

-I do defend these pushes in my replays. Please watch them. You don't stick to this build if you can't live, as I said scouting is important.

On paper it doesn't seem like this will work, try it out. You will have more than enough resources coming in to achieve each point of tech as well as units. At exactly the 7:00 mark you can sustain full production of zealots and sentries while teching to High Templar.

Any earlier aggression you take care of. Switch out into 3 gate stalker / zealot. I explain all of this in the post.
Exarl25
Profile Joined November 2010
1887 Posts
February 17 2011 19:47 GMT
#9
Sorry but this just isn't viable. It crumbles to any sort of early pressure, not to mention the lack of detection.
Mystogun
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States392 Posts
February 17 2011 19:48 GMT
#10
Nice post format, it was very easy to read and it didn't make me want to rip my eyes out =D

More on topic, I don't feel like goign to HTs so fast is very safe. Even if you can get storm out at the 10 minute mark ish, you'd still need to get the amulet upgrade for the HT to truly shine. Teching so hard on one base is pretty rough. This is especially true with Protoss, because we need sentries to keep us safe from early pressure for the most part.

When do you typically expand with this build? I don't know if you really have enough gas one one base to pump HTs. Leg speed is also one the most expensive upgrades in the game. 200/200 for leg speed, 150/100 for the Twilight Council, 150/200 for the Archives, 200/200 for storm, and 150/150 for Amulet. This much invested into tech so early is pretty hard for Protoss to hold, since we need lots of sentries for forcefielding ramps.

Also, just a side note, but in PvT, there's no need to get your gate and gas so early. You can actually make your gate on 13/14 and gas on 15. This way you don't cut probes in the beginning.

Do you constantly make probes/zealots/sentries while teching?
"What I'm sayin' is that there are known knowns and there are known unknowns, but there's also unknown unknowns, things that we don't know we don't know." | SC2: NoiSe.730 | LoL: Galladiator
DuckS
Profile Joined September 2010
United States845 Posts
February 17 2011 19:50 GMT
#11
there's a multitude of things T can do to roll you. Any early timings/harassment could heavily throw you off o.O
"You foiled us this time Americans, but your liberty will not protect your Marilyn Monroe forever - our Queen must FEED!" - Deleuze
Snapshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
February 17 2011 19:50 GMT
#12
I produce out of 1 gate in the beginning, constantly. However no sentries unless I detect heavy early aggression. This means nothing but zealots.

I constantly chrono out probes, and I generally expand at the 8:00min mark into 2 base play. 10:00 for storm means out of 2 bases, 6 gates (or less gates with a robo) I can fully produce without a problem and continue to tech to amulet.
Snapshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 19:56:24
February 17 2011 19:54 GMT
#13
Also I'd like to point out that I explicitly state that this is a build you start with, but aren't forced to continue. You can easily switch into 3 gates as opposed to teching up. All of these situations happen in my replays so again, please watch them! :D

If you read the entire post, all of these comments have been answered already

Edit**
About the timings on gate / gas-

They are actually needed for the timing pushes of Terrans. This way you have the proper minerals and gas amounts for the tech needed.
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 19:59:52
February 17 2011 19:55 GMT
#14
oh god.... i need to find more hands to make an epic face palm....
are fucking serious? leg speed.... OH GOD,....

ok lets be serious here:
1/ legspeed? this isnt beta phase 1...
2/ scout? WTF DO YOU SCOUT WITH... probe infornt of their base... make me laugh... is this platnium?
3/lets me repeat what u said there: you go storm into ROBO? REALLY? you REALLY get a ROBO AFTER storm?.... wowowowow

im sorry but i cant wait to here incontrol jokes on this
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
February 17 2011 19:55 GMT
#15
This doesn't make any sense. Charge and HT are both late-game techs, not to be touched until 6 gas. There is no logical progression of tech here, you're just rushing for high tech before you can afford it the same way a newb rushes for carriers on 1 base. Looks like you have an automatic loss against any kind of early pressure, any kind of 9 minute timing, and cloaked banshee.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Snapshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
February 17 2011 19:57 GMT
#16
Please read my post, this build is designed to fend off the 7 minute timing push of 3 rax.

The max unit count a Terran could have at this time, will be easily fended off. If they delay into tanks, you have that many more warp cycles to prepare.
Gheez
Profile Joined January 2011
3 Posts
February 17 2011 19:57 GMT
#17
I'm sure given the right opponent (most passive opponent ever) it could work I suppose.. but that's true of anything.

You just said it's not 1 base HT, but that you get HT and then expand while pushing lol.. sounds like you get HT on 1 base then? Anyway.. it just doesn't really work. For one, because you won't have the defense to hold off an early push.. and good players will push you early when they see twilight at 19!

Plus.. even if we pretend that they don't attack. They're getting tons of scouting info bc of the lack of defense and have an idea of what you're doing.. so why not just throw down ghost academy?

I tried something similar where I'd get zealots/archons (no gas for sentries on top of that) to hold off early pressure and then start storm after I expand, but frankly that didn't work either. Plus it's not really necessary when you can open in the safe way 2gate/robo and then tech to HT later if you so desire..
RyanRushia
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-17 19:58:38
February 17 2011 19:57 GMT
#18
On February 18 2011 04:50 Snapshot wrote:
I produce out of 1 gate in the beginning, constantly. However no sentries unless I detect heavy early aggression. This means nothing but zealots.

I constantly chrono out probes, and I generally expand at the 8:00min mark into 2 base play. 10:00 for storm means out of 2 bases, 6 gates (or less gates with a robo) I can fully produce without a problem and continue to tech to amulet.


i like the early production out of 1 gate while expanding... i still feel like you should be getting out early sentries just to deal with pressure, most of time you tend to be blind early scouting unless you leave a probe outside of their ramp to see if/when they move out, and could slightly be too late to work on getting the sentries. no reason not to get them jsut to have incase, plus since their energy compounds over time it's better to get them earlier than late, so you can have more forceifelds with less sentries! I'd definitly check out this game betwene Axslav vs dde in the recent V by complexity

http://www.youtube.com/complexityinsider#p/a/u/3/yHVSDAHwJ-s

although axslav doesn't quite do the 1gate expo you were thinking of, really shows how those sentries can be critical early game while working up to high templar, since high templar are pretty difficult to get against any type of aggression... really allows you to force them to rebuild units instead of comfortable building scvs and teching.
I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. | coL.Ryan | www.twitter.com/coL_RyanR
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
February 17 2011 19:59 GMT
#19
Good quality on the post layout and effort put into it....not quite as what I think about the content though.

1 Base HT is very gimmicky. You are teching straight to the highest tier of units for Protoss and it's not even really effective until you get amulet. It's just not something you can afford efficiently. If the Terran does a simple hellion drop, or banshee rush, you are in a world of hurt.

On February 18 2011 04:45 Snapshot wrote:
This isn't 1base Ht and you can produce out of the three warp gates without skipping cycles. This is 3 gate zealot with legs, into HT. You then take an immediate expansion while pushing.


It's considered a one base play since you tech so deeply into your tech tree before expanding.

I just don't see how this works in higher levels of play, and like Pokebunny said, you really have no options to deal with a 2 Marauder 1 marine Conc. Shell push.
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
Exarl25
Profile Joined November 2010
1887 Posts
February 17 2011 20:07 GMT
#20
On February 18 2011 04:54 Snapshot wrote:
Also I'd like to point out that I explicitly state that this is a build you start with, but aren't forced to continue. You can easily switch into 3 gates as opposed to teching up. All of these situations happen in my replays so again, please watch them! :D

If you read the entire post, all of these comments have been answered already

Edit**
About the timings on gate / gas-

They are actually needed for the timing pushes of Terrans. This way you have the proper minerals and gas amounts for the tech needed.

You seem to be assuming perfect scouting. This build doesn't allow for an observer so the instant their first Marine is out it will be difficult for you to gather any information.

I watched the first replay and your defence was very shaky, the Terran could have easily killed you had he been more aggressive. I also watched the replay on Shakuras and it wasn't convincing either, even with the switch to 3 Gate you barely held and that was with sloppy execution on his part and on one of the longest rush distances in the game. If he had made 1 Marine to chase out your probe before beginning Marauder production then what would you have done? The push would have been slightly delayed but if you followed the same path you did the first game then it wouldn't matter anyway, there is no way you would have enough units out to hold.

And again, no detection. I can't stress that fact enough. Cloaked Banshees are an insta win against this build, at the very least you need to incorporate in a forge.
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