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...or yet another map thread.
This struck me just some days ago. I wanted so badly to make some post somewhere titled something like: "Lost Temple - Where's my third base!?" and just bash on the new design of Lost Temple.
Because I'm almost always depressed when I play Lost Temple. Simply because it's very hard for me to plan for the late game like I usually do. My plan is always to play a ~20 minute game but if I can end it without risking too much before that I will.
Now in Brood War this was all pretty straightforward. There was always a third base waiting for you and unless you really rushed for it you would be able to take it quite comfortably once your unit production from 2-base economy started kicking in.
In StarCraft 2, on Lost Temple, you can only do this on cross-positions. Now think. Which games do you enjoy the most (regardless of what race you play) on Lost Temple? Cross-positions or other positions? I'm thinking most will say cross-positions.
A couple of days ago I translated my thinking to all other ladder maps and just came to the hypothesis that the maps feel bad not only because they aren't big enough and/or there are imbalances. But also because basically all third bases are awkward. Let's do a quick review.
Blistering Sands
Two possible ways to get a third. The gold is not too bad but it's in low ground and you have to destroy the rocks. Because it's mostly an aggressive map and you'll want to keep an eye on the backdoor it's awkward.
The other choice is pretty far away. Again, it's not too bad but it's awkward.
Jungle Basin
Need I state my case? Either the middle or one of the bases on the sides. All are far away. Perhaps terran has the easiest if they get a planetary in the middle. In PvZ protoss can feel a little bit less awkward taking the middle as well.
Still awkward.
Xel'Naga
Have to break rocks regardless. The gold is far away and close to middle. Dangerous. The other possibility is not that bad; it's pretty close and not too close to your opponent.
This gets a pass.
Scrap Station
Again... The third is awkward. You can't really "rush" to take it and feel safe. Also, it's very close to your opponent's third as well so there's a constant tension there.
Steppes of War
In terms of awkwardness in getting the third expansion I would say that Steppes of War is actually pretty good (that is, not awkward). Sure, you have to break down rocks but it feels like you expand away from your opponent and it's on high ground.
This gets a pass.
Lost Temple
This classic map has been absolutely destroyed. The mineral expansions have been replaced by... nothing! There's two gold expansions that only come into play on certain positions. Incidentally, that's the only time when it's fun to play this map.
From being the most standard of maps (despite other positional imbalances) this map now feels awkward.
Metalopolis
It's okay on certain positions. Again, these positions are the ones where the fun games spring up. Cross-position or close-by-air gives you a pretty comfortable third expansion. Not without risk but still comfortable.
This doesn't get a pass because close-by-ground positions are just terrible.
Shakuras Plateu
A definite pass. Your opponent is always pretty far away from your third. If he is close-by-air you can just expo to natural of the base vertically opposite from you. If he is cross-position you can choose between three expos. Your designated third, the one in the middle behind the rocks and the natural of the base vertically opposite from you.
A very good map in this respect.
Delta Quadrant
Could have been good but unfortunately it is not. The in-base expansion is covered by rocks. Because the map is pretty aggressive due to short rush distances (depends on positions) it can be hard to get a good timing down for breaking the rocks and expanding there.
If you don't want to do that, you have to expand in front of your base. Again due to the aggressive nature of the map this can be pretty risky. There's a gold pretty close by that feels great if it's cross position. Useless otherwise.
Still I feel this map could have potential if it was a bit bigger. But it doesn't quite get a pass.
2. What about maps in Brood War?
Take a look at them:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Maps#Maps_currently_used_in_Leagues
First of all, notice how they are all huge and the absolute vast majority either 3 or 4 player maps. That's been commented on again and again. But, notice also how much more comfortable you would feel putting down a third expansion on these maps then on the current ladder maps. They basically hand you the second expansion on a silver plate and make you reach out a little more before getting a third.
Sometimes positions can make it so you have to take another third. But because of the size of the maps, this never really feels too bad. You just know that it's something you have to do. Your opponent knows it. It's no big deal.
Conclusion
The awkward third base is currently a major problem in starcraft2 that hasn't (as far as I know) really been mentioned except that some may think it included when they ask for bigger maps.
I want to know if other people feel the same way. Because if they do, then that's something I would've liked to see emphasised a lot more in the critique toward the maps. Reading ICCUP Diamond's post he does mention that the maps punish expanding and that it is a core part of StarCraft. But there's no constructive criticism. It doesn't say why they punish expanding.
So do I have a point? Is it so obvious that I'm an idiot for making this thread?
Poll: Do you feel awkward taking a third base in StarCraft 2?Yes (410) 82% No (71) 14% Indifferent/Other (16) 3% 497 total votes Your vote: Do you feel awkward taking a third base in StarCraft 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Indifferent/Other
And for comparison. What about in Brood War?
Poll: Do you feel awkward taking a third base in Brood War?No (171) 69% Indifferent/Other (54) 22% Yes (22) 9% 247 total votes Your vote: Do you feel awkward taking a third base in Brood War? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Indifferent/Other
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I do miss the way that in Brood War a lot of build orders just specifically included a 3rd base and that usually it wasn't a problem to take it. There was just always a next step.
I do think we've come a long way already. Back in the beta even expanding to the natural was rare.
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Disagree about Delta Quadrant tho...it's definitely one of the safer maps to take a third. If Steppes of War gets a pass, Delta should as well. But honestly, I don't mind quick micro orientated games, and this balance of macro/micro maps is quite nice. '
But thank the f- they removed Kulas and Desert.
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Yea to take a third in sc2 you almost have to be ahead since expansions are almost an offensive move. We need more maps like SoW (without the rush distance).
Many maps have great places for a third like DQ, but the rush distance just ruins it. It all comes back to the maps being too small.
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I disagree about LT. The gold expansions are placed very well and you can pretty much always take a third. If you and your opponent got close ground spawns you can still expand to the gold when you have an advantage, otherwise you can just expand across from your opponent, if you're not playing heavy Tanks or something immobile like that.
LT is great, the cliffs should just be parking lots that demand a toll when you want to park vehicles on it.
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DQ is stupid to have so many expo's when there is such a little rush distances.
And I feel that Jungle Basin could use a expo right by the side of the rocks, before the high-ground side expo. That would add a new easy to defend third, which would still be kind weird to take due to the rocks, and makes two attack paths so its ok.
I just HATE how Blistering sands works. Nothing goes into your attack path, everything is waay too weird. I wish some BW maps were actually on the ladder.
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how is lost temple awkward to take a 3rd? unless you are close positions you have 4 easy expansions to take.
I think the bigger problem is that most people dont play for the late game and dont feel the need for a 3rd as they can do most stuff 'adequately' on 2 base
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I agree, it is really awkward to take a third on most maps. Like you said, on Metalo and Lost Temple, the third COULD be fine unless you get close positions, in which case it becomes worse than steppes of war. In reality, Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine had MUCH less awkward thirds but they were both removed.
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You are non "entitled" to a free and easy-to-defend third.
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On January 07 2011 23:02 clusen wrote:
I disagree about LT. The gold expansions are placed very well and you can pretty much always take a third. If you and your opponent got close ground spawns you can still expand to the gold when you have an advantage, otherwise you can just expand across from your opponent, if you're not playing heavy Tanks or something immobile like that.
LT is great, the cliffs should just be parking lots that demand a toll when you want to park vehicles on it.
But that's the thing. If you can only take it when you're ahead then it's bad. You're supposed to be able to take it if the game is even (in my mind).
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Feels pretty good on LT and metal as long as its not close. LT is a fine map in pretty much any MU as long as its not close position. Cliffdrop openings hardly work anymore vs good players. Kill his nat, but he leaves it, counters and kills you.
Fine on steppes, thats really not the problem with this map, the problem is you never play that long. Same goes for DQ, you have your nat and a back rock expansion, but again never that long games.
Shakuras actually has the most awkward 3rd, but map size makes up for it.
Scrap station is fine aswell. Xelnaga only has good 3rd for terran, who doesnt want a PF in the middle of the map?
Jungle basin and blistering has very weird 3rds, jungle basin being suicidal.
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I had such an awkward third base until my second girlfriend. Just gotta practice, dude.
+ Show Spoiler +Zergs always get to third base.
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On January 07 2011 23:02 clusen wrote:
I disagree about LT. The gold expansions are placed very well and you can pretty much always take a third. If you and your opponent got close ground spawns you can still expand to the gold when you have an advantage, otherwise you can just expand across from your opponent, if you're not playing heavy Tanks or something immobile like that.
LT is great, the cliffs should just be parking lots that demand a toll when you want to park vehicles on it.
LT you can only take a third as terran in close positions - and even for terrans its hard to take the gold as third if you havent won already.
@ DQ this map is the worst in the pool yeah you can take a natural but the third inside that is blocked with rocks is so stupid -
ZvP if you try to clear the rocks you get forcefielded, and they just kill your outside expo and its basically gg.
XvT if you take the backdoor you can get dropped and abused - i hardly ever used the backdoor expansion before i had my side of the map anyway. [now this crappy map is veto´d]
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On January 07 2011 23:05 Jago wrote:
You are non "entitled" to a free and easy-to-defend third.
This is basically it right here.
Like it or not, Starcraft 2 seems to be designed for it to be comfortable to remain on two bases for a long time. A third is not a requirement anymore for any race as the game is currently.
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Good topic. You can see that most SC2 maps nowadays are just weird 2 base timing pushes.
This also weakens zerg more than the other races because they need the 3rd more
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On January 07 2011 23:13 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:05 Jago wrote:
You are non "entitled" to a free and easy-to-defend third. This is basically it right here. Like it or not, Starcraft 2 seems to be designed for it to be comfortable to remain on two bases for a long time. A third is not a requirement anymore for any race as the game is currently.
have fun in the bronze league, or you play terran.
User was warned for this post
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i put indifferent/other because i like that some maps cater to long-game play, while others are more suitable for 2base strategies, whihc varies up the gmae and forces the plyaer to be good at both forms of the game.
and im 2900 diamond before the "bronze" comments start coming in
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I actually thought that LT is the only map with safe third (gold) with all positions except close ground.
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Yeah I think the current map pool definitely isn't perfect, but similar to what RyanRushia said, I think you just need to take what you're given and have a 2 base plan ready to avoid putting yourself in the weak position of playing a strategy that requires taking a third base.
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Great topic, really liked this one.
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EPT
