|
On January 08 2011 05:27 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 01:25 Numy wrote:On January 08 2011 01:22 Touch wrote:On January 08 2011 01:14 Numy wrote:On January 08 2011 01:09 LoLAdriankat wrote:On January 07 2011 23:16 idonthinksobro wrote:On January 07 2011 23:13 bonifaceviii wrote:On January 07 2011 23:05 Jago wrote:
You are non "entitled" to a free and easy-to-defend third. This is basically it right here. Like it or not, Starcraft 2 seems to be designed for it to be comfortable to remain on two bases for a long time. A third is not a requirement anymore for any race as the game is currently. have fun in the bronze league, or you play terran. How cute. A new poster trying to be an elitist and contributing nothing. It seems that Starcraft 2 is designed for long two base play. Have you guys watched the in-house Blizzard tournament finals that Day9 casted? That pretty much explains everything. Dayvie, balance designer and top 200 player, rarely takes a third and when he does, it's pretty late into the game. You can't say "hey look at this player he doesn't do X thus the game is designed not to do X". That's ludicrous. In fact this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Why? It's perfectly valid. If top ranked players do not take a third, there must be a reason, which is explained in the first post. That's a completely different situation. The poster I quoted said David Kim did not take a 3rd in some random in house tournament thus the GAME is not DESIGNED to have quick 3rds. Yet the first post talks about how maps are pigeon holing 2 base play not that the game is designed for 2 base play. Ah, I see your point. To be honest, with the new AI and the nerf of Siege Tanks (compared to BW), it really is difficult to take a 3rd base. For Zerg though, it's still very much the same, bases are taken quite quickly, but as for MUs such as PvZ and ZvZ, the number of bases is still very much similar to BW.
Hate to break it to you, but siege tanks really weren't nerfed, especially considering overkill isn't there.
What really was nerfed about siege tanks was the lack of spider mines. Really limits what you can do with mech.
|
Watching SlayersBoxer vs Hyperdub in the GSL code S, I was so happy to see him playing a strikingly BW style, and taking a 3rd/4th so quickly. Of course, the map he did it on (Shakuras) is pretty much the ONLY one in the pool that makes it possible.
I don't know if it's by design or accident, but Blizzard maps facilitating 1/2 base play more than anything else is a major problem in my opinion, and is definitely holding back new and more exciting playstyles.
Link to referenced game (Boxer part starts at 36:00):
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dVhj0jFrVc
|
Great OP, really thorough analysis of an important issue.
I think you are perfectly right on steppes of war, interestingly enough, every once in a while games do go into later stages on this map and then mostly the third isn't that big of a deal. Still the map itself remains ridiculous even in lategame, but the third isn't the problem there, which leads to some pretty good games.
On the other hand, the problematic third is the reason why I don't see a long-term future for xel naga caverns. The gold base is very open and the expo in the back is vulnerable in 3 ways. 1. you can harass it from the back, 2. you can attack it the classic way and catch your opponent off guard, 3. you can just attack the front while your opponent secures this expo after you eg. faked an attack there or did a drop. I always feel extremely vulnerable when I have to take my third on xel naga.
|
I think the fact that most maps accommodate 1/2 base plays is the greatest hindering factor of SC2. The play-styles just don't have a chance to develop off 2 base styles. The economy of 2 bases begs for another expansion and it's at 3+ bases that games get truly epic.
Let me say, that in no way do I find the current quality of SC2 play boring or lame at all. The GSL's have been entertaining, and personally, I thought the finals of Dream Hack were amazing. I think it was game three, where Mana broke the contain, where I literally screamed in my dorm room panicking my roommates.
I believe that as a community, we have not even scratched the surface of true potential this game offers. I see SC2 still in a teething phase were many match-ups, especially mirror match ups, are just underdeveloped. BW has over a decade (100's of years for a video game) of development which is why new maps really can breathe fresh life into a very young game.
|
A lot of the maps would be better if the rocks in the expansions were removed or at the very least lower the rocks HP. They are being way overused, i mean maybe it could be interesting with something blocking an expansion but that should be something rare and not the standard. Also stacking them like in bw on medusa for instance would be interesting. At least for rocks that blocks short-distance-pushes or whatever.
|
I think a reduction to the amount of mineral patches per base and an increase to the # of bases would be good to see. I think at the moment, income + worker count is so high from 2 bases that that has to be addressed as well. I'd be really, really curious to see how maps work out with say, fewer mineral nodes per base or an additional gas node at your expansion, etc. Obviously, this is harder to determine if/when the game is still being patched, but it's something I've wanted to experiment with for a while.
|
On January 08 2011 06:54 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I think a reduction to the amount of mineral patches per base and an increase to the # of bases would be good to see. I think at the moment, income + worker count is so high from 2 bases that that has to be addressed as well. I'd be really, really curious to see how maps work out with say, fewer mineral nodes per base or an additional gas node at your expansion, etc. Obviously, this is harder to determine if/when the game is still being patched, but it's something I've wanted to experiment with for a while.
thats a good point and the 2 gases per exp means 3 more scv's per base locked as workers on your supply rather than army compared to bw.
|
On January 08 2011 04:45 eloist wrote:
*browsing BW maps on liquipedia*
Hey, that paranoid android map totally is scrap station.
The sad thing about this is that even though that map looks terrible the third (and fourth) is still easier to take.
Stool of War: Fairly easy to take your third, too bad its impossible to take your natural (PvP/T anyone?).
Crap Station: Oh my god do I actually have to say anything? The island is more viable than any other 3rd on that map, even if you're Protoss. The natural fourth is NEVER taken because not only is it in a little corner and looks kind of out of place, it has those retarded rocks. As if they actually add anything to the map at all.
Rock Caverns: Not only is the map covered in rocks, but it is also so cavernous that every single expansion on the map are so goddamn wide. Not too terrible overall.
Drop Play Temple: Not terrible to take your third unless its close positions but those gold rocks really kill the map for me; they just are saying to me the whole game "LOLOL betcha don't have the time to move your army to kill me long enough for your main to not get dropped or your main army flanked!"
Blood Bath Basin: I don't mind it since I'm Protoss but there are a total of 8 mining bases on that map. Seriously. Poorly designed although tbh I like it overall (IMBA maps eff tee double you eh oh el)
MultiplePersonailty(Metal)Opolus: Either a decent but incredibly wide open map with an easily timed third available or bonecrunchingly tight and impossible to take third. Definitely one of the better maps still.
BS: olololol what third?
Rock Quadrant: There's nearly as many rocks on that map as there are expansions. Funny how there still manages to be as many rock free expansions on that map as there are expansions period on Jungle Basin.
Shakuras Plateau: Isn't even on the ladder anymore OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
It's also worth it to point out that on many of these maps taking your 4th is a billion times easier than your 3rd. Seriously, after I take the center on Jungle Basin half the time my opponent doesn't want to expand, ever, so I'm like "Wut ev's, double expand time olol". The 4th on BS is a stone's throw away from the third, it's almost easy enough to double expand after you take your 3rd on Lost Temple (I often do do that actually), and a similar story on Metal.
|
I feel awkward about the TIMING of the 3rd, but I don't believe that having expos free and safe and right next to my main to defend and take at my leisure is conducive to exciting matches..
|
this OP understands alot what the issues with the maps are.
the awkward 3rd bases and short rushdistances (nat to nat/main ramp to main ramp distance)
however i start to feel were making too many topics instead of generalizing it as a whole
|
This is StarCraft II, not Brood War.
Until people realize that the games are not that similar people won't be able to enjoy SCII as a competitive RTS. SCII isn't all macro like Brood War was, so likewise the thirds on the SCII maps are going to be more difficult to expand to.
About the map pool: yeah it's not that good. As far as balanced maps in the map pool, I like Shakuras Plateau, Xel'naga Caverns, Jungle Basin, and maybe Lost Temple if the harassment cliff was a bit smaller. I'm not saying LT is imbalanced, all I'm saying is that I'd like to be able to hit tanks with roaches.
|
Getting a third is pretty awkward, but I think that just makes it more of an acomplishment.
There is really nothing you can't do to prevent him from preventing your expand. I don't struggle getting a third on any of these maps.
|
On January 20 2011 04:12 Antares777 wrote:
SCII isn't all macro like Brood War was, so likewise the thirds on the SCII maps are going to be more difficult to expand to.
Yeah... that's kinda the point. The maps are a large part of why SC2 "isn't all macro like BW was", and that's (to a lot of people) a problem. Most people actually like watching macro games.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
