EPTThe awkward third base - Page 3
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On January 07 2011 22:35 ParasitJonte wrote: Conclusion The awkward third base is currently a major problem in starcraft2 that hasn't (as far as I know) really been mentioned except that some may think it included when they ask for bigger maps. the balance team is a doing a shitty job (imo) is exactly because of that, just look at how strong is terran 2 base play - it is INSANE. obviously terran is the race they put most of the time/effort in development and try to load up a very hard/insane AI, all of them are revolving around the 2base play. the design team seems to think this game should focus on maximum 2base play. why did i mention terran in my post at all?? because we all know P/Z cant have an effective army 200/200 army with 2bases. | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
I personally don't understand the map structure of making a 3rd base so hard to take. Expanding should already be a risk, they shouldn't make it an even bigger risk by putting it withing 5 seconds of your enemy's natural. Even players in the GSL are cheesing even more than they would like to because macro games are hard to achieve for certain map/spawning locations. | ||
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RaLakedaimon
United States1564 Posts
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
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Johnranger-123
United Kingdom341 Posts
On January 07 2011 23:27 Elefanto wrote: people seem to forget something drastically between the difference in bases at bw and starcraft 2. in starcraft 2, it doesn't matter how many probes are mining until you reach full saturation. if you want to take a 3. base, you would need around 60-70 probes to fully saturate it. the starcraft 2 mineral / gas gathering system doesn't really support multi-basing. also the 6 workers needed for gas. if you want the additional income from a third base, you have to produce an obsurd amount of probes. if you got 60-70 probes @ 3 bases, you got a fucking tiny army, especially if you have units like colossi (6 supply rofl wtf, or immortal 4) it's not only the maps that have to change, also the mineral / gas gathering. keep that in mind please. and getting 60-70 probes isnt normal for you? wtf? Ok Im sorry but this can't be right at all, do you just 2base until your main runs dry or something? you can hardly support a 200/200 army on two bases so I dont know why the army size would make a difference. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On January 08 2011 01:14 Numy wrote: You can't say "hey look at this player he doesn't do X thus the game is designed not to do X". That's ludicrous. In fact this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. What I said is only part of it. There's so much that leads me to speculate that this game was designed for mostly 2 base play. The maps and the AI's build orders are the biggest ones. Btw, I know there are a lot of Zergs that think they need to have a 3rd base. 2 saturated bases on 3 hatches could keep up with 2 base Terran for a decent amount of time (of course you eventually have to take your third, but not as quickly as you think). | ||
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Fiel
United States587 Posts
- In SC1, your third is out in the middle of the map with no choke. In SC2, your third is on a peninsula. This makes it much easier to defend with siege tanks, spine crawlers, or photon cannons because you have less ground to cover. - Not to mention that your third is a mineral only expansion in SC1. - The only way for Zerg to take a third gas in SC1 is to get Lair and get drop tech. It's much easier to expand to the island expansions in SC2 due to the changes in Nydus worms. Also, Nydus worms can be used offensively much easier in SC2 compared to SC1, so it's almost always better to go Nydus anyway compared to overlord drop tech. So, SC2 is better because your third is easier to defend, offers gas, and because it's easier for Zerg to take a third gas. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On January 07 2011 21:23 iEchoic wrote: Yep, I've felt like this for a while. It's not necessarily impossible to be balanced, but you have to make a lot of concessions (like on maps) when one race's unbounded worker production is so far ahead of the others. The spawn larva mechanic means that very large maps will never be balanced. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Edit: I failed to mention that I also play terran, I don't feel nearly as awkward in TvZ on lost. Mainly because of cliff tank/thor harass, and defense of these positions. Also, I can make extra bunkers and salvage them if they become unnecessary later, or are just in the way. Also, the fact that so many terran units can be used for very effective harass. It is easier to keep the zerg in check and punish greed. (MM drops, thor/tank cliff drops, Hellions harass, banshee harass, viking overlord harass, even viking landing harass which has become less popular lately, raven harass ect) With stim marines, the low cost of missile turrets (with hi sec range and +2 armor available as well), thors and vikings great anti air range,Muta harass isn't nearly as scary or difficult to repel. | ||
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mangoloid
100 Posts
So, agreed, 3rd base in LT is often awkward. | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
On January 08 2011 02:25 mangoloid wrote: Blizz likes to say that they want a varied and interesting map pool, but this was the first thing I thought about when I heard that statement. The Blizz pool loves to punish expanding, and the majority of maps are set up to reward 1- and 2-base play. They do not want you to take third, and this is a huge problem with their map pool in my opinion. So, agreed, 3rd base in LT is often awkward. The 3rd is awkward. For one, the cliff. Especially in ZvT. It literally kills the match-up on that map, period. Also, close positions Lost Temple is almost as big of a joke as steppes of war. Close positions Lost Temple makes all-ins stupidly more effective then they already are in ALL match ups. On top of that, the third gold expansion is NOT a gimmie. yes it has a tight choke, good for static defense and all. But First off, you need to kill off the rocks, secondly THE GOLD EXPANSION CAN BE HIT FROM BOTH CLIFFS THAT SURROUND IT. A Thor can deny 2-3 of the mineral patches from the cliff A High templar can storm the mineral line from the cliff A Siege Tank straight up can attack the hatchery/nexus from the cliff. and so forth.. Lost temple is not balanced size wise (close positions by ground), and it DOES have an awkward third. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
It's 'awkward' so you have to plan, and execute it, and know you can take it due to pressure, harassment, prior battle win Never sleep on the hidden expo, or cross map expo. Can alter enemies build for the first bit it kicks in, and you roll through battles because they think you're on 1 base still The map pool is spread. I can get a third easy as hell on say delta, and Steppes, xelnaga, and metalopolis. It's all dependent on how you play the map, really. | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
This, unfortunately, lends to less exciting and diverse game play, making it more predictable and stale. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
For some reason most people I play against don't like taking thirds so I'll usually have to postpone that a bit just to be safe. Or then it's a zerg who tries to take it super early just when I have my big tank/1-1 rine timing push ready -.- You can take 3rd early when you are ahead enough early on but you really have to learn how to "sense" it. But I kinda understand it being awkward for protoss early on. Once stoned templars with dem gay daring amulets are out Protoss can take like every base on the map safely though so it's a tradeoff in a way. I'm a scrub though so that's just how I feel, don't go thinking any of it is valid knowledge. | ||
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