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So here's the thing, i'm a 2k diamond zerg player (not to show off but to state what my "skill" level is situated at.
I just can't seem to beat a protoss with this type of build wich is:
colossus + voidray + stalkers + immortals + zealots
Here's the history of the match that just occured:
So the map is metalopolis and we spawn close walk position. I decide to go 14 pool 16 hatch 21 extractor. He goes 3 gate+stargate into expand or maybe 4 but he prolly added the 4th while he was pushing so i couldn'T scout exactly what happend. It turns out i'm able to defend his push with roachs + hydras. Then I decide to counter attack with a decent amout of roachs hydras to his own fresh expand, my push is denied. I then get a 3rd(the one at close air from my spawning point) and keep massing roachs + hydras with some corruptors into the mix, then ... he take his whole army into a wrap arround the map to hit my 3rd. because i don't want to face his army right now, i decide to go for his main since hes way out of position. I have to face.. 7-8 canons i think but not a Big deal I loose a few roachs, kill his expo kill his canons kill some stuff in his main base, then his army come back i try to get a good angle where i can have superior arc, but who cares he got void rays, and forcefields soo he plays like every toss(who can blame em), throw down 101018481 forcefields and cut my army in half, i almost finish his army, but we're too close to my base i doN't have the time to remake my army fast enough and he end up crushing my base.............
now my questions are:
is roach hydra corruptor viable against this build at all?
If yes, what did I do wrong during this particular game linked below?
Should I Hurry the F*** up to get to broodlords corruptors hydras roachs in this case ?
is my strategy wrong on close walk positions and should I favor muta/ling play wich would slow down his teching?
Link:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/114540-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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yet i'm not so high in the rankings as you are and i didn't even read the whole text but there is one thing i want to ask:
Why not mass mutas + zerglings?
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On December 11 2010 02:45 mansnicks wrote:
yet i'm not so high in the rankings as you are and i didn't even read the whole text but there is one thing i want to ask:
Why not mass mutas + zerglings?
that's exactly the question i'm asking my self.. would It be better or not?
can't figure it out.. void rays are strong when assisted by stalkers
and I fell my zerglings would get rolfstomped by colossis
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If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi,
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On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi,
no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
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I'm not able to watch the replay but... if it is mid- late game and you have 3-4 bases. I'd suggest going ling roach to hold of initial attacks. Once on 3 base, put down a Spire and get corrupters while continuing to expand. Transition to Broodlords/ling/roach or whatever composition you want. Corrupters early will provide scouting/defense and do not die easily to Toss anti air.
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His build lacks in mobility (compared to a ling/muta army), see if you can draw out his Stalkers without Colossus support with your Mutalisks, and down them with Zerglings.
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It sounds like your problem wasn't so much his army composition, more the fact that your attacks got shut down and you were close spots on meta (which are horrible for Z).
Like other high tech unit mixes, void ray/colossus is an extremely dangerous unit mix, but just like every other high tech unit mix, it takes a long time to tech up to it and even longer to get to a critical mass. As a midgame strategy, I don't believe void ray/colossus is viable because you can't put any pressure whatsoever on Z. You'll have very few units out for a long time and both void rays and colossi become exponentially more dangerous as they increase in numbers, so moving out early is almost impossible. Z is pretty much free to drone up and go up to 4 bases.
If you're asking how to beat colossus/void ray as a late-game unit mix however, it becomes more difficult. I guess the best answer is the same answer as to mass carrier in BW: don't let him get there.
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colo-VR-gate units would never occur vs Muta
If the Z goes muta the P can pump phoenixes and gate units, so obviously roach-hydra-corruptor is the only viable unit combo or timing push with hydraling or roach-hydra before he has thurmal lance and many colossi.
You should have more stuff to put it simply, getting that kind of production up is quite costly, as long az you dont lose too much to roaming VRs and drone smart you re good
2600 Z here, or sg like that anyways
on close positon Metalopolis, go for the timing bust, no chance otherwise imo
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On December 11 2010 02:53 Nocthem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi, no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
Well there's the rub. If he has all those things and you're going mass muta and you don't have more than 30 mutas, he just kind of has more stuff than you and that is why you die. Stalkers and void rays are both bad against MASS attack upgraded mutas.
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If the toss managed to build up a decent force of stalker/ray/collossi combination, you really have to just hit him from multiple sides to reduce the amount of damage the collossi is dishing out. That combinations makes taking out collossi much harder because stalker+ rays will shredd corrupters, so you can't just play passively till all the collossi are downed by your corrupters.
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Mass mutas is the easiest idea - you are fighting only stalkers and vr's and they aren't great vs muta.
Also you could swarm with zerglings - but not a-move or colosi will r*pe them. Swarm from 2-3 sides and you're done.
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Muta ling with corruptor support is the best option. Maybe hydras depending on how many colossi he has.
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United States2095 Posts
This is a very hard army composition to deal with. The hardest part of it is getting into a good situation where you can flank or at least attack from several sides to deal with collosus. The void rays are what your Hydras are going to want to help focus down first, and have roaches on ground army. The corrupters you want to have attacking the voidrays then collosus. You need to proportion your army correctly though. If he has ALOT of voidrays / collosus, you need ALOT of corrupters. If he doesn't, then more roach / hydra. Its a hard balance, and make sure your hydras are spread out. If he gets really good forcefields just don't try and engage and run back and try it again later. Hope that helps.
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Im not sure if muta is the right response, since he already opened stargate he will have at a minimum of 2 stargates that he can pump out phoenix from if he see you responding mutas.. However i dont know any other viable counter either....
I usually try some form of 300 food push with roaches/hydras/corrupters/brood... sometimes it works and sometimes not.. feels very hard to the void/collu ball anyway.
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I'm no fantastic zerg player, but you seemed to be going for Machine's ZvP build, with the 14 pool, 16 hatch, 21 gas, but you didn't follow it too well. You're supposed to get the second gas after Ling speed, which would have given you more gas for making roaches, and would have allowed you to get hydras out faster to hold off that first push.
When you went out for that big push, I feel like your unit composition was sorta bad. You had a lot of lings, which do well enough against all those gateway units, seeing as how he wasn't going for heavy zealots, but then you get a good amount of roaches, which don't do so well against the stalkers, immortals and voids, and then just a few hydras thrown in. Your minerals and gas were pretty high during this push, so I would think that a mainly hydra army probably would have straight crushed him at this point.
After that you eventually threw down the spire, and started getting corrupters. If you could have gotten those out earlier, and focused on picking of the collosi, pure hydra would have decimated his army.
Ultimately I feel it came down to he had a farther tech advantage than you did, and your army composition could not really keep up with his. Try working some overseers into your play, use them for scouting out what he is going, He started his Robotics Bay right before that big push you did around 14 minutes. If you had an overseer to the south of his base, and had just Shift-moved it all over his base during the battle, and pulled it out once the battle was winding down, you would have seen it, and gotten your overseer out safely. You could have started your spire right then, as opposed to starting it 4 minutes later, when he already had 2 collosi out.
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I feel that ideas are a lot differents, If I regroup them in 2 big groups:
1) keep going roach hydras BUT expand faster get the good corruptor ratio AND make a timing push with roach speed + burrow/hydra(maybe) AND if hes able to mass up attack from multiple angles with proper army composition, focus down vrays with hydras and corruptors and roachs on ground army.
2) go mass muta ling and swarm him, attack from multiple angles while building your mutas force while expanding..
Now the no,1 seems much more viable to me since I have to get Roachs to defend the initial 3-4 gate push before he expands (on close positions) on far positions you have more time to get a good amount of slings and spines to defend.
but here's the deal If he see me going mass mutas he will (assuming hes a good protoss) go for blink stalkers/phoenix's play, wich is rough to deal with when you have mutas... considering that.. maybe the "proper" build would be in this case: infestors slings mutas? fg'ed blink stalkers or phoenix aren'T effective vs my army... whut dyou think?
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If he's got collosus you are going to need corruptors unless you have a massive mutalisk army.
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What is this I don't even.
Lets see. Immortal, collosus, void rays, and stalkers. 30+ stalkers. What were YOU doing for all that time? That is a metric crap-ton of gas and tech. Don't expect to win vs an equal size late-game Protoss army in a decisive battle. You should be able to out-produce him easily, but you won't beat an equal size Toss army in the late game without a second wave unless you just have a ludicrous amount of high tech units, like 10 ultras, 8 brood lords, 6 infestors, and 50 muta.Incidentally, both require the same number of tech buildings.....pre-emting the "omg too many tech paths" argument.
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yea.. it seems like the problem here is letting the toss get too far ahead on econ...
look at the cost of immortals, colls and void rays
if he's making a big ball of high high cost units, and can still afford 30+ stalkers, then you should be able to afford a ton of mutas unless your macro is way behind.
since mutas do decent versus void rays, aren't TERRIBLE versus stalkers and obviously have no issue with robo, then massing them is the way to go. Supplement with lings, which work great against stalkers, immortals then you should be better off.
also, scout scout scout... if he wants to get robo heavy while having enough VRS out, u should be able to harass with mutas before that ball exists and try to limit his starport production (contaminate and snipe pylons/ports)
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EPT
