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Couple things:
1) Why were you microing your units so much during the first push? You could have taken out ALL his units with your zerglings..
2) You had tons of resources to go all-in with hydras after the first push. Hydras are great versus everything except templar and colossus, both of which he didn't have yet. Roaches were a bad idea because he had immortals and void rays, both of which eat through roaches.
3) You waited too long to counter attack after his first push. You were up by a dozen drones after his first attack, so if you had used your economic advantage to put on a lot of pressure and possibly killed him, the game would have immediately been in your favor.
4) You microed way too much during the counter attack. If you're going to micro, CTRL+click your hydras back, CTRL+click your zerglings to run around to attack the stalkers/immortals (dont let them die quickly to zealots), and just let your roaches A-move in.
Anyway, after your failed counter attack, the game was pretty much done for you. He was way ahead in the worker count. The problem is, if you DO let him get his voidray/colossus ball out, he will win. But watching the replay, at least you know there was a window of opportunity where you COULD have won.
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On December 11 2010 02:53 Nocthem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi, no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
He had 11? Muta would do well against this, but if you got muta, he'd definitely get more stalkers or pheonix. In that end battle, you just didn't have enough corruptors.
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roach + corruptor/muta maybe?
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voidray+colossi+stalker is indeed a supersick combo against zerg in the lategame, im a 2600 diamond protoss and its the combo i build up in the lategame against zerg.
I guess the solution for zerg is either mutas only or hydra+infester with neural parasite (definitly underused at the moment, will be used more in the future 100%, people have to recognize how SUPERstrong a parasited colossi is :/)
with the "normal" combo hydra/roach/corrupter u will 99% die, because void rays melt corrupter so fast and easily, not even funny for zerg.
I think in general infester will be more important in zvp than people think. Fungal is great against the blinkstalker + dt strategy and neural parasite on 1-2 colossi is insta win.
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Ling/Muta/Corrupter would work really well in theory.
Send in corrupter first follow up with muta and then stream in ling if you can. Corrupters take care of the collosus, zerglings draw fire from stalkers making your mutas more powerful. Add or subtract one of the 3 depending on need. Micro intensive though
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On December 11 2010 05:41 Andre112 wrote:
couldn't watch replay at work
but during a coaching session of mrbitter and incontrol
incontrol said that you'll lose a lot of units the first battle but the colossi number is down, sentry engery is used up
while you have tons of larvae just keep making units and rally during the battle, never let food drop too much
your units are poping out of many hatcherys, and protoss can't make keep up
after keep refilling your army, protoss ball will eventually die
this is actually your main problem. forget about voidray/colossus/whatever. he went immortals and voidrays and tried to expand, and you just let him. early ling/hydra attack massacres that no problem. you should've A) had a scoutling in front of his base so you could mass lings before he was 10 feet away from your base. and then B) after you easily crush the army with lings, which you would've because he was devoting all his money into tech/eco and therfore had no actual army, the hydras inevitably come out and then you just go and kill him. it was completely unnecessary for the match to go any further than that. if you had a scout to respond properly to the battle at the 9 minute mark, you would've killed it even harder and your queens would've never died and therefore voidray would do no damage, and then 1-2 minutes later you have more hydras than he can handle. he'd inevitably have some forcefields but you just have to make sure you keep up your macro in the middle of the battle and he'd be run over.
it's possible for protoss to get void rays and colossus but the way your opponent did it is completely wrong, and he deserved to lose in the first 10 minutes for being too greedy with tech.
as a common sense trigger, if you see an expansion and multiple high tech units from protoss that come out of different buildings, i.e. immortal/voidray, just go kill him when his expansion finishes. that's how you beat what your opponent did and it will be nearly effortless. rewatch the replay and have the unit tab up, you'll be amazed at how much gateway army he doesn't have for nearly the entire game because his build is so crappy.
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I think your build needs more harass in it, If you let him just get that composition (What sometimes can be quite difficult to not let him get it) Its alot scarier than just collosus with 5zealots and stalkers,
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The solution to this one is very situational,
You have to scout if he has more collosus or more void rays.
In both cases, Hydra ground army is needed.
Upgraded air attack is also mandatory
I also found that getting a few extra queens in this situation helps out quite a bit, run your damaged corruptors back for some transfusion if necessary.
If he has about 3 collosus and 8 void rays,
Go ahead and suicide corruptors to kill those collosi.
They must die at all cost!! Once the void rays charge up to two beams, I would retreat and transfuse
Without collosi, the void rays don't really matter much when you have hydra.
If he has about 6 collosus and 3 void rays, you can target the void rays first. Then try to take on collosi.
Go in with hydras once the collosi are dead.
I really dont recommend muta if he has stalker support because mutalisks are so squishy when void/stalkers both fire at them.
Also don't forget the fact that his army is dependent on balling up, so any chance to diffuse his army through muta harass and nydus worms makes his army MUCH MUCH more vulnerable!!
good luck!
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Well recently i have been using banedropping out of overlords and i found it to be very very effective, i think there is a thread on TL by a member called Chickenlips that shows avery nice way to deal with the "collosus" part of your dilema
I suggest using just 1/2 infestors to fungal his whole army, dropping about 40 banelings onto it while your hydra's clean up the Voidray its micro intensive but it can be done.
Good luck.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167126
It was a tactic used by a korean player and Chickenlips here shared it with the TL community so ty to the korean for creating it and chickenlips for showing us it..
I would suggest going 2-0 attack on melee for the banebombs they are ridiculously costeffective when they are 2-0 upgraded ^^
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on close positon Metalopolis, go for the timing bust, no chance otherwise imo
This. Close positions on metalopolis is pretty brutal. I'd try to attack his nat with a roach or roach/hydra push. If he goes for an early stargate, you'd most likely want roach/hydra to combat the inevitable voidrays, and because collosi will be later than from a gate into robo type build. If he expands into robo, you could try and go roach/ling before he's got too many immortals out.
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Singapore545 Posts
i think the problem is not about what can counter this.. but how do u prevent the toss from even reaching there.
i've tried the corruptor/hydra/roach composition and it is definitely possible to win using that composition with proper micro (corruptors should hit the colossus and try to focus down the voids with your hydras). the problem is balancing out how many corruptors/hydras/roaches to get.. if u get too many of either one ... it'll be harder for u to pull out ahead. therefore getting a good scout in on your opponent's army can help u decide whether u want more corruptors or hydras and so on...
i've been experimenting with sky zerg recently... going pure mutas and corruptors to hold off the usual transition a protoss makes to reach this composition. holding the initial 3 gate push is the impt part and u'll probably need spine crawlers and speedlings.. but close positions on metalopolis is just SIGH for a zerg.
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If you can flank, a ground army will be effective.
If you can't, you need air; mutalisks are the strongest choice unless Protoss is sporting Archons or Psionic Storm.
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Macro is key. However inefficient macro (i.e. macro that DOESNT build tech together with econ), is what cost you this game. You must realize that even if toss is one base less than you, he can still make a deathball that will roll any max food army you can produce. Namely, sentries and collossi (tier THREE) will just roll your hydraroach (tier TWO). You really need to be building tech, harassing and still macroing efficiently to really get ahead a 2basing maxfood toss.
Perhaps ultras or broodlords are the answer to this sort of army compo (despite the paperishness of his build) but occasionally, even good macro zergs fall prey to the habit of make more units, make more drones and not teching, thus wasting precious supply.
In this case, perhaps the best response is to quickly tech to a LOWER tier unit that is more efficient than hydraroach. I'm talkin about banelings. Banelings are cost efficient against a toss deathball since they will be bunched up (noting that you should flank with the blings on creep during an engagement with the rest of your army so that you dont get trapped by FFs). Also, they free up supply while trading with toss for damage to greatly weaken his ball. At this point, a 2basing toss will probs just 지지 if you manage to damage his deathball enough as he does not have enough time and resources to remake his units.
The voids in this case are there really to absorb damage from corruptors, as well as to kill them. They are really weak once separated from the rest of his stalker+sentry support, which will be non-existant when you bling his deathball.
Not saying that banelings are the BEST thing to go against a collossi deathball, but it is a quick fix for a zerg who has focused too much on eco and units and not enough on tech.
Just my 2 cents.
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I agree with Sm3agol, if he can get all that stuff there's no reason you cant have ultra/corrupter/muta/infestor.
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Hydras are probably a bad idea if they have colossi. I really wouldn't get hydralisks at all in a late game scenario (I would early-mid game to deal with certain stuff but I would never mass them ever). Mutas + infestors should work wonders, mix in broodlords/ultras/roaches.
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Don't suggest mass muta, as unless you went muta ling from the outset of the game you don't have enough gas to support enough, and even then they are not cost effective in a straight up fight, and if I see a muta ling player I will sure as hell not go collosus void ray, HT is 10x more logical.
A roach corrupter composition beats a collosus void ray composition cost for cost, as long as you use corruption. Have fun.
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EPT
