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So here's the thing, i'm a 2k diamond zerg player (not to show off but to state what my "skill" level is situated at.
I just can't seem to beat a protoss with this type of build wich is:
colossus + voidray + stalkers + immortals + zealots
Here's the history of the match that just occured:
So the map is metalopolis and we spawn close walk position. I decide to go 14 pool 16 hatch 21 extractor. He goes 3 gate+stargate into expand or maybe 4 but he prolly added the 4th while he was pushing so i couldn'T scout exactly what happend. It turns out i'm able to defend his push with roachs + hydras. Then I decide to counter attack with a decent amout of roachs hydras to his own fresh expand, my push is denied. I then get a 3rd(the one at close air from my spawning point) and keep massing roachs + hydras with some corruptors into the mix, then ... he take his whole army into a wrap arround the map to hit my 3rd. because i don't want to face his army right now, i decide to go for his main since hes way out of position. I have to face.. 7-8 canons i think but not a Big deal I loose a few roachs, kill his expo kill his canons kill some stuff in his main base, then his army come back i try to get a good angle where i can have superior arc, but who cares he got void rays, and forcefields soo he plays like every toss(who can blame em), throw down 101018481 forcefields and cut my army in half, i almost finish his army, but we're too close to my base i doN't have the time to remake my army fast enough and he end up crushing my base.............
now my questions are:
is roach hydra corruptor viable against this build at all?
If yes, what did I do wrong during this particular game linked below?
Should I Hurry the F*** up to get to broodlords corruptors hydras roachs in this case ?
is my strategy wrong on close walk positions and should I favor muta/ling play wich would slow down his teching?
Link:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/114540-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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yet i'm not so high in the rankings as you are and i didn't even read the whole text but there is one thing i want to ask:
Why not mass mutas + zerglings?
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On December 11 2010 02:45 mansnicks wrote:
yet i'm not so high in the rankings as you are and i didn't even read the whole text but there is one thing i want to ask:
Why not mass mutas + zerglings?
that's exactly the question i'm asking my self.. would It be better or not?
can't figure it out.. void rays are strong when assisted by stalkers
and I fell my zerglings would get rolfstomped by colossis
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If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi,
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On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi,
no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
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I'm not able to watch the replay but... if it is mid- late game and you have 3-4 bases. I'd suggest going ling roach to hold of initial attacks. Once on 3 base, put down a Spire and get corrupters while continuing to expand. Transition to Broodlords/ling/roach or whatever composition you want. Corrupters early will provide scouting/defense and do not die easily to Toss anti air.
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His build lacks in mobility (compared to a ling/muta army), see if you can draw out his Stalkers without Colossus support with your Mutalisks, and down them with Zerglings.
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It sounds like your problem wasn't so much his army composition, more the fact that your attacks got shut down and you were close spots on meta (which are horrible for Z).
Like other high tech unit mixes, void ray/colossus is an extremely dangerous unit mix, but just like every other high tech unit mix, it takes a long time to tech up to it and even longer to get to a critical mass. As a midgame strategy, I don't believe void ray/colossus is viable because you can't put any pressure whatsoever on Z. You'll have very few units out for a long time and both void rays and colossi become exponentially more dangerous as they increase in numbers, so moving out early is almost impossible. Z is pretty much free to drone up and go up to 4 bases.
If you're asking how to beat colossus/void ray as a late-game unit mix however, it becomes more difficult. I guess the best answer is the same answer as to mass carrier in BW: don't let him get there.
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colo-VR-gate units would never occur vs Muta
If the Z goes muta the P can pump phoenixes and gate units, so obviously roach-hydra-corruptor is the only viable unit combo or timing push with hydraling or roach-hydra before he has thurmal lance and many colossi.
You should have more stuff to put it simply, getting that kind of production up is quite costly, as long az you dont lose too much to roaming VRs and drone smart you re good
2600 Z here, or sg like that anyways
on close positon Metalopolis, go for the timing bust, no chance otherwise imo
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On December 11 2010 02:53 Nocthem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi, no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
Well there's the rub. If he has all those things and you're going mass muta and you don't have more than 30 mutas, he just kind of has more stuff than you and that is why you die. Stalkers and void rays are both bad against MASS attack upgraded mutas.
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If the toss managed to build up a decent force of stalker/ray/collossi combination, you really have to just hit him from multiple sides to reduce the amount of damage the collossi is dishing out. That combinations makes taking out collossi much harder because stalker+ rays will shredd corrupters, so you can't just play passively till all the collossi are downed by your corrupters.
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Mass mutas is the easiest idea - you are fighting only stalkers and vr's and they aren't great vs muta.
Also you could swarm with zerglings - but not a-move or colosi will r*pe them. Swarm from 2-3 sides and you're done.
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Muta ling with corruptor support is the best option. Maybe hydras depending on how many colossi he has.
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United States2095 Posts
This is a very hard army composition to deal with. The hardest part of it is getting into a good situation where you can flank or at least attack from several sides to deal with collosus. The void rays are what your Hydras are going to want to help focus down first, and have roaches on ground army. The corrupters you want to have attacking the voidrays then collosus. You need to proportion your army correctly though. If he has ALOT of voidrays / collosus, you need ALOT of corrupters. If he doesn't, then more roach / hydra. Its a hard balance, and make sure your hydras are spread out. If he gets really good forcefields just don't try and engage and run back and try it again later. Hope that helps.
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Im not sure if muta is the right response, since he already opened stargate he will have at a minimum of 2 stargates that he can pump out phoenix from if he see you responding mutas.. However i dont know any other viable counter either....
I usually try some form of 300 food push with roaches/hydras/corrupters/brood... sometimes it works and sometimes not.. feels very hard to the void/collu ball anyway.
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I'm no fantastic zerg player, but you seemed to be going for Machine's ZvP build, with the 14 pool, 16 hatch, 21 gas, but you didn't follow it too well. You're supposed to get the second gas after Ling speed, which would have given you more gas for making roaches, and would have allowed you to get hydras out faster to hold off that first push.
When you went out for that big push, I feel like your unit composition was sorta bad. You had a lot of lings, which do well enough against all those gateway units, seeing as how he wasn't going for heavy zealots, but then you get a good amount of roaches, which don't do so well against the stalkers, immortals and voids, and then just a few hydras thrown in. Your minerals and gas were pretty high during this push, so I would think that a mainly hydra army probably would have straight crushed him at this point.
After that you eventually threw down the spire, and started getting corrupters. If you could have gotten those out earlier, and focused on picking of the collosi, pure hydra would have decimated his army.
Ultimately I feel it came down to he had a farther tech advantage than you did, and your army composition could not really keep up with his. Try working some overseers into your play, use them for scouting out what he is going, He started his Robotics Bay right before that big push you did around 14 minutes. If you had an overseer to the south of his base, and had just Shift-moved it all over his base during the battle, and pulled it out once the battle was winding down, you would have seen it, and gotten your overseer out safely. You could have started your spire right then, as opposed to starting it 4 minutes later, when he already had 2 collosi out.
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I feel that ideas are a lot differents, If I regroup them in 2 big groups:
1) keep going roach hydras BUT expand faster get the good corruptor ratio AND make a timing push with roach speed + burrow/hydra(maybe) AND if hes able to mass up attack from multiple angles with proper army composition, focus down vrays with hydras and corruptors and roachs on ground army.
2) go mass muta ling and swarm him, attack from multiple angles while building your mutas force while expanding..
Now the no,1 seems much more viable to me since I have to get Roachs to defend the initial 3-4 gate push before he expands (on close positions) on far positions you have more time to get a good amount of slings and spines to defend.
but here's the deal If he see me going mass mutas he will (assuming hes a good protoss) go for blink stalkers/phoenix's play, wich is rough to deal with when you have mutas... considering that.. maybe the "proper" build would be in this case: infestors slings mutas? fg'ed blink stalkers or phoenix aren'T effective vs my army... whut dyou think?
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If he's got collosus you are going to need corruptors unless you have a massive mutalisk army.
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What is this I don't even.
Lets see. Immortal, collosus, void rays, and stalkers. 30+ stalkers. What were YOU doing for all that time? That is a metric crap-ton of gas and tech. Don't expect to win vs an equal size late-game Protoss army in a decisive battle. You should be able to out-produce him easily, but you won't beat an equal size Toss army in the late game without a second wave unless you just have a ludicrous amount of high tech units, like 10 ultras, 8 brood lords, 6 infestors, and 50 muta.Incidentally, both require the same number of tech buildings.....pre-emting the "omg too many tech paths" argument.
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yea.. it seems like the problem here is letting the toss get too far ahead on econ...
look at the cost of immortals, colls and void rays
if he's making a big ball of high high cost units, and can still afford 30+ stalkers, then you should be able to afford a ton of mutas unless your macro is way behind.
since mutas do decent versus void rays, aren't TERRIBLE versus stalkers and obviously have no issue with robo, then massing them is the way to go. Supplement with lings, which work great against stalkers, immortals then you should be better off.
also, scout scout scout... if he wants to get robo heavy while having enough VRS out, u should be able to harass with mutas before that ball exists and try to limit his starport production (contaminate and snipe pylons/ports)
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They key is not letting protoss get to this critical mass before you have a game-breaking macro lead. You've got to expand to force him to push out, and you've got to know how to use all those expansions and resources to give yourself a huge macro edge.
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I'm a fan of ultralisk/infestor/hydra myself 
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couldn't watch replay at work
but during a coaching session of mrbitter and incontrol
incontrol said that you'll lose a lot of units the first battle but the colossi number is down, sentry engery is used up
while you have tons of larvae just keep making units and rally during the battle, never let food drop too much
your units are poping out of many hatcherys, and protoss can't make keep up
after keep refilling your army, protoss ball will eventually die
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On December 11 2010 02:53 Nocthem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi, no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
so he has enough stalkers to kill around 30 mutas AND he's got immortals, zealots, collossus and VRs?
for a protoss to have that many units, you're probably getting out-macroed
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In my experience as a 1600 diamond protoss, if I get that ball it's pretty much GG unless I make a huge blunder. You just can't let a P get to the point when they get the deathball.
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He did 3 gate + starport + robo and just then expanded. He had imortal from start. Roach was just a bad idea.
He took his time till he got Colossi, A mass hidra would triumph before his expansion could kick in and colossus would get ready. If he has robo it is to be expected to him to go colossus, also if he has starport it would be expected for him to go carriers. But with both it's hard to guess. Either way, Corruptor > protoss tier 3, but they're not stronger than Void Rays. You MUST micro the corruptors in the colossus/carriers (and use corruption...). That will make your hidras that much more effective against stalkers (they do LESS damage against light armor) and they are fast enough to kill immortal with little to no problem (they also do way less damage against light armor and that's why roach is a terrible answer).
Most zergs now are using roachs, even 7RR. So protoss are using heavy anti-roach builds. This guy was one of them. Get them umprepared with hidras instead, but don't forget that colossus or carriers will kick in soon, so get also some corruptors.
I think you lost too much time to get your gas and get your lair+ technology. Fast void ray harass can still do great damage, you can't just wait that much time for lair+.
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Imo a lot of your problems came from your macro and less from your unit choice. Just rewatch the game with the income tab open. You are behind in workers for the first 8 minutes or so.
Then his push came right when you were pulling ahead, that allowed him to safe his expo and pull ahead in workers once again.
I think the whole time you were behind in workers added up to you not having enough stuff to crush him in the end.
Oh yeah, and I'd always connect far away bases with a nydus, at least you can safe some drones that way if it gets attacked.
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Mass corruptors and roaches, that's all. I've seen it before.
BTW what's the problem with 1 lost, I mean protoss played really well.
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Have you tried Muta+ling+baneling? Use your banelings to take out some of the stalkers or collosi while zerlings take care the rest and mutas takes care of voidrays. Tried this on a similar build by a protoss and he got overrung by it.
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His unit combo wasn't your problem at all in that game. At all. The way Protoss got that combo was actually horribly inefficient and vulnerable (3 Gate, Robo, Stargate, Forge and expo in 9 minutes is just retarded).
You need to analyze your replays more carefully to realize what your mistakes were.
- Your macro was the first - it was really, really bad compared to your opponent. His build was paper thin but he sure macroed the hell out of it while you were quite sloppy with yours (including some bad decision making of what to produce when which is critical for Zerg). That's why he got the chance to exploit his Everything Build that he shouldn't ever have had under normal circumstances. You floated over 1k minerals and later on 1k gas for long periods of time. =/
- You stayed on 2 bases (same as Protoss) for far too long. You never really gained a significant economic edge and he mostly had even and for some time even higher income. Then you decided build a 2 base Zerg army and tried to take out a 2 base Toss (his expo was up for quite a while so he was out of his expo vulnerability window). Off creep. Against Forcefields.
Overall you got beaten by mechanics, being passive and some poor decision making, but that's no big deal. What is a big deal is to analyze your replays correctly so that you don't stress over counters and unit combinations when the actual problems are elsewhere.
You shouldn't even be talking about Colossi, Void Rays and whatever else there was in this replay. I don't even remember what his exact army composition looked like because it was just about that irrelevant to that game. What I did find funny is that he only had 3 Gateways 1 Robo and 1 Stargate all 23 minute game long. I don't know whether I should be facepalming over his build or be impressed that his macro was pretty damn good to manage to get the most out of that. Probably both. =P
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Mass mutas. You need mass mutas. Start with a few/ fly around, hit weak points until you have a ball large enough to take out photon cannons. Build spine crawlers early to defend any warpgate attacks and start building mass speedlings once your minerals building up.
Void ray/stalker/colossus is the new standard for ZvP, and I love it. The weakness in zergs is that mass roaches is so popular as opposed to the old muta/ling.
(Keep in mind mutas must be built up completely.)
Muta/ling with harass stops void rays to begin with.
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Hey,
Not particularly good zerg here, but this build is the one I picked to learn and get good at so I've watched/played a lot with JUST this one (planning to do that until platinum and focusing on reacting around it since everyone says focus on one build for each matchup)
In the VOD where Machine talks about this build (14 pool 16 hatch 21 gas) he says specifically that the timings and tech switches are fast and difficult and scouting is neccessary, specifically for collosus. I can't comment on anything mechanics cause mine suck but sacking overseers and immediate spire on bay detection is crucial for this build. Plus, since I started throwing OLs in as soon as things got too quiet the game got a bit less random. I just have to learn to do it at the right times now.
Oh yeah and creep spread. Hydras are like zerg buildings, they need creep to stay alive.
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What your asking is what is a balanced Protos army is weak against its not weak against anything inparticular its balanced.
You need to relise if you just smash 100supply zerg into 100supply protoss you will losse if dont have devious mirco and units like infestors the game is build like that as zerg can remake an army quicker than protoss.
Your on 3 base to 2 thats how its supposed to be for zerg (not me that what Tastles and Artosis are saying on the GLS casts)
He micros well with the force fields you dont use burrow to get in close with the roches (wouldnt have made much difference as he had an observer but still)
You lost your reinforching units and then didnt send the others till the battle was over it want so it wasnt all about compostion (although broods or ultras would have dont wonders even lings to force early force fields on cheap lings and broodlings) its the force fields that win it for the protoss in the repaly i watched in the end if he had had no sentrys and you had focust fire you would have at least got a draw and won the next encounter as he was on no bases at the time.
Special abilitys can be game changing think if you had got a fungle groth of and stopped his units backing up then gone up the ramp and shot at half of them while they couldnt move he also had 2 upgrades to your 1.
Another problem in the actual match was the base trade it want very fair you attacked into 8 cannons and 3 stakers taking pot shots plus 1 cannon on the high ground that never went down i dont think he lost anything when he sacs your 3 expo so any supply lead you had went right there although i do see you had to do it your units dont get a good arc.
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so
people say "YOU CANT LEAVE ZERG ALONE, THEY'LL OUT MACRO YOU AND GG"
but in my experience the truth is that its worse to leave protoss alone depending on the situation and for how long.
Leaving protoss alone for 30 minutes off 2 base is probably a bad idea. Even if you have the whole map, its not hard for protoss to raise a 200/200 of 2 base and rape you. Off 3 base you're for sure dead.
Off of one base its no problem, there'll never be the gas to get a crazy rape army. Just make sure they dont expand.
The truth is there is a timing when you will be FAR FAR ahead in army if protoss leaves you alone, and this is why its said "DON LEAVE ZERG ALONE TO EXPAND/MACRO" you'll likely be on 3 fully saturated bases as they finish saturating their second if you each do your own thing. This is where you can easily tech and raise and army to go attack and win.
However, continuing to macro at this point, because you dont feel pressure is an error which has lost me many games. I was too used to the idea that zerg will win if left alone.
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The reason why you shouldn't leave Zerg alone is not that they can eventually saturate their bases, get an army and kill you, it's that they can get an army and you kill it and they get another and you kill it and they get another and it finishes you off. That's what the mystical Zerg late game macro is - rebuilding units just as they die (and always getting the right ones).
A good Zerg will win if left alone. Moreover, almost anybody should win if left alone. You can't afford to be passive and turtle for tens of minutes in any sort of higher level game.
Don't use bad games (ie this one) as an example of what is and isn't viable.
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Watched the replay, this is a macro problem. Fix drone count and add extra hatchery if your queen injections arent perfect. /thread
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@talin
I am describing a situation here where both players are left alone. At some timings zerg will win, at some they wont. (of course its not concrete in any case, but generally and mathematically)
I am referring to, if zerg and protoss have a deal, they both expand at will and then attack eachother at
30 minutes, leaving eachother alone entirely for 30 minutes; protoss will rape any army zerg has and every army that they replenish, no matter how many bases zerg is off of, assuming protoss has 3 bases.
The counter for mass collosi/ void ray and few stalker / high templar is to not let them get it and that is all. It will shred any army and loose barely any food.
I'm talking here about a FULL army of like 10+ collosi, 25+ void ray, and the rest needed counter support, a few immortals, HT or stalker etc.
I know that was not the case in this replay, but as a general rule this illustrates the point you cannot leave protoss ALONE alone for that long.
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For one don't bitch like that when u lose. Its really lame, and makes you look like a noob.
It was well played by your oppponent.
You had 3 bases, but they were sufficiently droned up so you didn't really have a big economic advanatge. Your opponents timing was really good and he had better upgrades and tech than you. You can defintely beat that with roach hydra corruptor. But you need a big army. His army had more resources in it and superiour tech and more upgrades.
Don't bitch. Say gg and ask how to beat it. I know I've learned a lot from players who beat me who practice strategys afterwards.
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On December 11 2010 08:08 navy wrote:
@talin
I am describing a situation here where both players are left alone. At some timings zerg will win, at some they wont. (of course its not concrete in any case, but generally and mathematically)
I am referring to, if zerg and protoss have a deal, they both expand at will and then attack eachother at
30 minutes, leaving eachother alone entirely for 30 minutes; protoss will rape any army zerg has and every army that they replenish, no matter how many bases zerg is off of, assuming protoss has 3 bases.
The counter for mass collosi/ void ray and few stalker / high templar is to not let them get it and that is all. It will shred any army and loose barely any food.
I'm talking here about a FULL army of like 10+ collosi, 25+ void ray, and the rest needed counter support, a few immortals, HT or stalker etc.
I know that was not the case in this replay, but as a general rule this illustrates the point you cannot leave protoss ALONE alone for that long.
Well I agree with your point. But a more important, overarching point is that you should never leave anybody entirely alone for that long no matter what race he is. Situation where both players leave each other completely alone (without harassment or at least showing off or feigning pressure) is unnatural in Starcraft. It can only happen if both players aren't really good and they're not quite sure of what should they be doing.
Zerg should profit the most out of being left alone under the condition that he doesn't leave the other player alone as well (ie Muta harassment, ling pokes if possible, Banelings in mineral lines etc).
As for the thing with Protoss on 3 bases being invincible against Zerg, I'm not quite convinced of that, as obviously player skill and positioning decisions/mistakes kick in a lot at that point in time. Zerg can by no means engage that army frontally, but he can also decimate it with a good surround and a just-on-time pop of the right units to have.
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against balls with colossi and voidray n such, infestor with neural parasite a good option, just controle the colossi and move in with slings and perhaps some banelings, and for air mutacorruptor is a super good tacc, and perhaps roaches with burrow to backstab in his base, i think it will pwn his ass pretty hard
User was warned for this post
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Couple things:
1) Why were you microing your units so much during the first push? You could have taken out ALL his units with your zerglings..
2) You had tons of resources to go all-in with hydras after the first push. Hydras are great versus everything except templar and colossus, both of which he didn't have yet. Roaches were a bad idea because he had immortals and void rays, both of which eat through roaches.
3) You waited too long to counter attack after his first push. You were up by a dozen drones after his first attack, so if you had used your economic advantage to put on a lot of pressure and possibly killed him, the game would have immediately been in your favor.
4) You microed way too much during the counter attack. If you're going to micro, CTRL+click your hydras back, CTRL+click your zerglings to run around to attack the stalkers/immortals (dont let them die quickly to zealots), and just let your roaches A-move in.
Anyway, after your failed counter attack, the game was pretty much done for you. He was way ahead in the worker count. The problem is, if you DO let him get his voidray/colossus ball out, he will win. But watching the replay, at least you know there was a window of opportunity where you COULD have won.
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On December 11 2010 02:53 Nocthem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 02:51 -Mav- wrote:
If he had pure voids and colossi mass mutas would obliterate that. catch his voids uncharged, focus them down, mop up colossi, no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think.
He had 11? Muta would do well against this, but if you got muta, he'd definitely get more stalkers or pheonix. In that end battle, you just didn't have enough corruptors.
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roach + corruptor/muta maybe?
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voidray+colossi+stalker is indeed a supersick combo against zerg in the lategame, im a 2600 diamond protoss and its the combo i build up in the lategame against zerg.
I guess the solution for zerg is either mutas only or hydra+infester with neural parasite (definitly underused at the moment, will be used more in the future 100%, people have to recognize how SUPERstrong a parasited colossi is :/)
with the "normal" combo hydra/roach/corrupter u will 99% die, because void rays melt corrupter so fast and easily, not even funny for zerg.
I think in general infester will be more important in zvp than people think. Fungal is great against the blinkstalker + dt strategy and neural parasite on 1-2 colossi is insta win.
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Ling/Muta/Corrupter would work really well in theory.
Send in corrupter first follow up with muta and then stream in ling if you can. Corrupters take care of the collosus, zerglings draw fire from stalkers making your mutas more powerful. Add or subtract one of the 3 depending on need. Micro intensive though
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On December 11 2010 05:41 Andre112 wrote:
couldn't watch replay at work
but during a coaching session of mrbitter and incontrol
incontrol said that you'll lose a lot of units the first battle but the colossi number is down, sentry engery is used up
while you have tons of larvae just keep making units and rally during the battle, never let food drop too much
your units are poping out of many hatcherys, and protoss can't make keep up
after keep refilling your army, protoss ball will eventually die
this is actually your main problem. forget about voidray/colossus/whatever. he went immortals and voidrays and tried to expand, and you just let him. early ling/hydra attack massacres that no problem. you should've A) had a scoutling in front of his base so you could mass lings before he was 10 feet away from your base. and then B) after you easily crush the army with lings, which you would've because he was devoting all his money into tech/eco and therfore had no actual army, the hydras inevitably come out and then you just go and kill him. it was completely unnecessary for the match to go any further than that. if you had a scout to respond properly to the battle at the 9 minute mark, you would've killed it even harder and your queens would've never died and therefore voidray would do no damage, and then 1-2 minutes later you have more hydras than he can handle. he'd inevitably have some forcefields but you just have to make sure you keep up your macro in the middle of the battle and he'd be run over.
it's possible for protoss to get void rays and colossus but the way your opponent did it is completely wrong, and he deserved to lose in the first 10 minutes for being too greedy with tech.
as a common sense trigger, if you see an expansion and multiple high tech units from protoss that come out of different buildings, i.e. immortal/voidray, just go kill him when his expansion finishes. that's how you beat what your opponent did and it will be nearly effortless. rewatch the replay and have the unit tab up, you'll be amazed at how much gateway army he doesn't have for nearly the entire game because his build is so crappy.
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I think your build needs more harass in it, If you let him just get that composition (What sometimes can be quite difficult to not let him get it) Its alot scarier than just collosus with 5zealots and stalkers,
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The solution to this one is very situational,
You have to scout if he has more collosus or more void rays.
In both cases, Hydra ground army is needed.
Upgraded air attack is also mandatory
I also found that getting a few extra queens in this situation helps out quite a bit, run your damaged corruptors back for some transfusion if necessary.
If he has about 3 collosus and 8 void rays,
Go ahead and suicide corruptors to kill those collosi.
They must die at all cost!! Once the void rays charge up to two beams, I would retreat and transfuse
Without collosi, the void rays don't really matter much when you have hydra.
If he has about 6 collosus and 3 void rays, you can target the void rays first. Then try to take on collosi.
Go in with hydras once the collosi are dead.
I really dont recommend muta if he has stalker support because mutalisks are so squishy when void/stalkers both fire at them.
Also don't forget the fact that his army is dependent on balling up, so any chance to diffuse his army through muta harass and nydus worms makes his army MUCH MUCH more vulnerable!!
good luck!
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Well recently i have been using banedropping out of overlords and i found it to be very very effective, i think there is a thread on TL by a member called Chickenlips that shows avery nice way to deal with the "collosus" part of your dilema
I suggest using just 1/2 infestors to fungal his whole army, dropping about 40 banelings onto it while your hydra's clean up the Voidray its micro intensive but it can be done.
Good luck.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167126
It was a tactic used by a korean player and Chickenlips here shared it with the TL community so ty to the korean for creating it and chickenlips for showing us it..
I would suggest going 2-0 attack on melee for the banebombs they are ridiculously costeffective when they are 2-0 upgraded ^^
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on close positon Metalopolis, go for the timing bust, no chance otherwise imo
This. Close positions on metalopolis is pretty brutal. I'd try to attack his nat with a roach or roach/hydra push. If he goes for an early stargate, you'd most likely want roach/hydra to combat the inevitable voidrays, and because collosi will be later than from a gate into robo type build. If he expands into robo, you could try and go roach/ling before he's got too many immortals out.
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i think the problem is not about what can counter this.. but how do u prevent the toss from even reaching there.
i've tried the corruptor/hydra/roach composition and it is definitely possible to win using that composition with proper micro (corruptors should hit the colossus and try to focus down the voids with your hydras). the problem is balancing out how many corruptors/hydras/roaches to get.. if u get too many of either one ... it'll be harder for u to pull out ahead. therefore getting a good scout in on your opponent's army can help u decide whether u want more corruptors or hydras and so on...
i've been experimenting with sky zerg recently... going pure mutas and corruptors to hold off the usual transition a protoss makes to reach this composition. holding the initial 3 gate push is the impt part and u'll probably need spine crawlers and speedlings.. but close positions on metalopolis is just SIGH for a zerg.
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If you can flank, a ground army will be effective.
If you can't, you need air; mutalisks are the strongest choice unless Protoss is sporting Archons or Psionic Storm.
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Macro is key. However inefficient macro (i.e. macro that DOESNT build tech together with econ), is what cost you this game. You must realize that even if toss is one base less than you, he can still make a deathball that will roll any max food army you can produce. Namely, sentries and collossi (tier THREE) will just roll your hydraroach (tier TWO). You really need to be building tech, harassing and still macroing efficiently to really get ahead a 2basing maxfood toss.
Perhaps ultras or broodlords are the answer to this sort of army compo (despite the paperishness of his build) but occasionally, even good macro zergs fall prey to the habit of make more units, make more drones and not teching, thus wasting precious supply.
In this case, perhaps the best response is to quickly tech to a LOWER tier unit that is more efficient than hydraroach. I'm talkin about banelings. Banelings are cost efficient against a toss deathball since they will be bunched up (noting that you should flank with the blings on creep during an engagement with the rest of your army so that you dont get trapped by FFs). Also, they free up supply while trading with toss for damage to greatly weaken his ball. At this point, a 2basing toss will probs just 지지 if you manage to damage his deathball enough as he does not have enough time and resources to remake his units.
The voids in this case are there really to absorb damage from corruptors, as well as to kill them. They are really weak once separated from the rest of his stalker+sentry support, which will be non-existant when you bling his deathball.
Not saying that banelings are the BEST thing to go against a collossi deathball, but it is a quick fix for a zerg who has focused too much on eco and units and not enough on tech.
Just my 2 cents.
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I agree with Sm3agol, if he can get all that stuff there's no reason you cant have ultra/corrupter/muta/infestor.
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Hydras are probably a bad idea if they have colossi. I really wouldn't get hydralisks at all in a late game scenario (I would early-mid game to deal with certain stuff but I would never mass them ever). Mutas + infestors should work wonders, mix in broodlords/ultras/roaches.
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Don't suggest mass muta, as unless you went muta ling from the outset of the game you don't have enough gas to support enough, and even then they are not cost effective in a straight up fight, and if I see a muta ling player I will sure as hell not go collosus void ray, HT is 10x more logical.
A roach corrupter composition beats a collosus void ray composition cost for cost, as long as you use corruption. Have fun.
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EPT
