EPT(H) how can you beat the Colossu Voidray ball as Z - Page 2
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Rakanishu2
United States475 Posts
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Dysk
Singapore44 Posts
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Andre112
Canada52 Posts
but during a coaching session of mrbitter and incontrol incontrol said that you'll lose a lot of units the first battle but the colossi number is down, sentry engery is used up while you have tons of larvae just keep making units and rally during the battle, never let food drop too much your units are poping out of many hatcherys, and protoss can't make keep up after keep refilling your army, protoss ball will eventually die | ||
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:53 Nocthem wrote: no he had stalkers in the mix.. like he had enough to kill anything under 30 mutas easily i think. so he has enough stalkers to kill around 30 mutas AND he's got immortals, zealots, collossus and VRs? for a protoss to have that many units, you're probably getting out-macroed | ||
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kcaz
Canada387 Posts
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
He took his time till he got Colossi, A mass hidra would triumph before his expansion could kick in and colossus would get ready. If he has robo it is to be expected to him to go colossus, also if he has starport it would be expected for him to go carriers. But with both it's hard to guess. Either way, Corruptor > protoss tier 3, but they're not stronger than Void Rays. You MUST micro the corruptors in the colossus/carriers (and use corruption...). That will make your hidras that much more effective against stalkers (they do LESS damage against light armor) and they are fast enough to kill immortal with little to no problem (they also do way less damage against light armor and that's why roach is a terrible answer). Most zergs now are using roachs, even 7RR. So protoss are using heavy anti-roach builds. This guy was one of them. Get them umprepared with hidras instead, but don't forget that colossus or carriers will kick in soon, so get also some corruptors. I think you lost too much time to get your gas and get your lair+ technology. Fast void ray harass can still do great damage, you can't just wait that much time for lair+. | ||
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Airfan
Germany73 Posts
Then his push came right when you were pulling ahead, that allowed him to safe his expo and pull ahead in workers once again. I think the whole time you were behind in workers added up to you not having enough stuff to crush him in the end. Oh yeah, and I'd always connect far away bases with a nydus, at least you can safe some drones that way if it gets attacked. | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
BTW what's the problem with 1 lost, I mean protoss played really well. | ||
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Avatar360
Romania9 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
You need to analyze your replays more carefully to realize what your mistakes were. - Your macro was the first - it was really, really bad compared to your opponent. His build was paper thin but he sure macroed the hell out of it while you were quite sloppy with yours (including some bad decision making of what to produce when which is critical for Zerg). That's why he got the chance to exploit his Everything Build that he shouldn't ever have had under normal circumstances. You floated over 1k minerals and later on 1k gas for long periods of time. =/ - You stayed on 2 bases (same as Protoss) for far too long. You never really gained a significant economic edge and he mostly had even and for some time even higher income. Then you decided build a 2 base Zerg army and tried to take out a 2 base Toss (his expo was up for quite a while so he was out of his expo vulnerability window). Off creep. Against Forcefields. Overall you got beaten by mechanics, being passive and some poor decision making, but that's no big deal. What is a big deal is to analyze your replays correctly so that you don't stress over counters and unit combinations when the actual problems are elsewhere. You shouldn't even be talking about Colossi, Void Rays and whatever else there was in this replay. I don't even remember what his exact army composition looked like because it was just about that irrelevant to that game. What I did find funny is that he only had 3 Gateways 1 Robo and 1 Stargate all 23 minute game long. I don't know whether I should be facepalming over his build or be impressed that his macro was pretty damn good to manage to get the most out of that. Probably both. =P | ||
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PowerDes
United States520 Posts
Void ray/stalker/colossus is the new standard for ZvP, and I love it. The weakness in zergs is that mass roaches is so popular as opposed to the old muta/ling. (Keep in mind mutas must be built up completely.) Muta/ling with harass stops void rays to begin with. | ||
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BadWolf0
United States300 Posts
Not particularly good zerg here, but this build is the one I picked to learn and get good at so I've watched/played a lot with JUST this one (planning to do that until platinum and focusing on reacting around it since everyone says focus on one build for each matchup) In the VOD where Machine talks about this build (14 pool 16 hatch 21 gas) he says specifically that the timings and tech switches are fast and difficult and scouting is neccessary, specifically for collosus. I can't comment on anything mechanics cause mine suck but sacking overseers and immediate spire on bay detection is crucial for this build. Plus, since I started throwing OLs in as soon as things got too quiet the game got a bit less random. I just have to learn to do it at the right times now. Oh yeah and creep spread. Hydras are like zerg buildings, they need creep to stay alive. | ||
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Cool_CR
United Kingdom1 Post
You need to relise if you just smash 100supply zerg into 100supply protoss you will losse if dont have devious mirco and units like infestors the game is build like that as zerg can remake an army quicker than protoss. Your on 3 base to 2 thats how its supposed to be for zerg (not me that what Tastles and Artosis are saying on the GLS casts) He micros well with the force fields you dont use burrow to get in close with the roches (wouldnt have made much difference as he had an observer but still) You lost your reinforching units and then didnt send the others till the battle was over it want so it wasnt all about compostion (although broods or ultras would have dont wonders even lings to force early force fields on cheap lings and broodlings) its the force fields that win it for the protoss in the repaly i watched in the end if he had had no sentrys and you had focust fire you would have at least got a draw and won the next encounter as he was on no bases at the time. Special abilitys can be game changing think if you had got a fungle groth of and stopped his units backing up then gone up the ramp and shot at half of them while they couldnt move he also had 2 upgrades to your 1. Another problem in the actual match was the base trade it want very fair you attacked into 8 cannons and 3 stakers taking pot shots plus 1 cannon on the high ground that never went down i dont think he lost anything when he sacs your 3 expo so any supply lead you had went right there although i do see you had to do it your units dont get a good arc. | ||
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navy
Canada197 Posts
people say "YOU CANT LEAVE ZERG ALONE, THEY'LL OUT MACRO YOU AND GG" but in my experience the truth is that its worse to leave protoss alone depending on the situation and for how long. Leaving protoss alone for 30 minutes off 2 base is probably a bad idea. Even if you have the whole map, its not hard for protoss to raise a 200/200 of 2 base and rape you. Off 3 base you're for sure dead. Off of one base its no problem, there'll never be the gas to get a crazy rape army. Just make sure they dont expand. The truth is there is a timing when you will be FAR FAR ahead in army if protoss leaves you alone, and this is why its said "DON LEAVE ZERG ALONE TO EXPAND/MACRO" you'll likely be on 3 fully saturated bases as they finish saturating their second if you each do your own thing. This is where you can easily tech and raise and army to go attack and win. However, continuing to macro at this point, because you dont feel pressure is an error which has lost me many games. I was too used to the idea that zerg will win if left alone. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
A good Zerg will win if left alone. Moreover, almost anybody should win if left alone. You can't afford to be passive and turtle for tens of minutes in any sort of higher level game. Don't use bad games (ie this one) as an example of what is and isn't viable. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
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navy
Canada197 Posts
I am describing a situation here where both players are left alone. At some timings zerg will win, at some they wont. (of course its not concrete in any case, but generally and mathematically) I am referring to, if zerg and protoss have a deal, they both expand at will and then attack eachother at 30 minutes, leaving eachother alone entirely for 30 minutes; protoss will rape any army zerg has and every army that they replenish, no matter how many bases zerg is off of, assuming protoss has 3 bases. The counter for mass collosi/ void ray and few stalker / high templar is to not let them get it and that is all. It will shred any army and loose barely any food. I'm talking here about a FULL army of like 10+ collosi, 25+ void ray, and the rest needed counter support, a few immortals, HT or stalker etc. I know that was not the case in this replay, but as a general rule this illustrates the point you cannot leave protoss ALONE alone for that long. | ||
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pogoman
United States28 Posts
It was well played by your oppponent. You had 3 bases, but they were sufficiently droned up so you didn't really have a big economic advanatge. Your opponents timing was really good and he had better upgrades and tech than you. You can defintely beat that with roach hydra corruptor. But you need a big army. His army had more resources in it and superiour tech and more upgrades. Don't bitch. Say gg and ask how to beat it. I know I've learned a lot from players who beat me who practice strategys afterwards. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 11 2010 08:08 navy wrote: @talin I am describing a situation here where both players are left alone. At some timings zerg will win, at some they wont. (of course its not concrete in any case, but generally and mathematically) I am referring to, if zerg and protoss have a deal, they both expand at will and then attack eachother at 30 minutes, leaving eachother alone entirely for 30 minutes; protoss will rape any army zerg has and every army that they replenish, no matter how many bases zerg is off of, assuming protoss has 3 bases. The counter for mass collosi/ void ray and few stalker / high templar is to not let them get it and that is all. It will shred any army and loose barely any food. I'm talking here about a FULL army of like 10+ collosi, 25+ void ray, and the rest needed counter support, a few immortals, HT or stalker etc. I know that was not the case in this replay, but as a general rule this illustrates the point you cannot leave protoss ALONE alone for that long. Well I agree with your point. But a more important, overarching point is that you should never leave anybody entirely alone for that long no matter what race he is. Situation where both players leave each other completely alone (without harassment or at least showing off or feigning pressure) is unnatural in Starcraft. It can only happen if both players aren't really good and they're not quite sure of what should they be doing. Zerg should profit the most out of being left alone under the condition that he doesn't leave the other player alone as well (ie Muta harassment, ling pokes if possible, Banelings in mineral lines etc). As for the thing with Protoss on 3 bases being invincible against Zerg, I'm not quite convinced of that, as obviously player skill and positioning decisions/mistakes kick in a lot at that point in time. Zerg can by no means engage that army frontally, but he can also decimate it with a good surround and a just-on-time pop of the right units to have. | ||
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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