Gah, lately I've really been struggling with pvz. It seems like I don't know the proper timing of expanding, gating, attacking, ect.

Also, what the hell am I supposed to do as far as finding out the zerg's strategy? Guess lurker or muta? I know fast obs is out of the question.

Just some basic pvz things, and the scouting tech tips would be nice. thanks. :O

Slaughter

United States20255 Posts

August 29 2004 04:08 GMT

Hmm I have problems with zvp -_-

dronebabo

10866 Posts

August 29 2004 04:09 GMT

--- Nuked ---

ChApFoU

France2984 Posts

August 29 2004 04:09 GMT

you should have posted that is the strategy forum
sry i cant help you, i suck too much with protoss ^^

Yuljan

2196 Posts

August 29 2004 04:14 GMT

As Zerg i find it hard to handle early mass zealot pressure.

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

August 29 2004 04:27 GMT

i dont recall any of the current best players becoming so skilled by reading advice on a messageboard.. why are so many people convinced that it's the smart thing to do now? who are these people on the top that got there from reading this shit?

perhaps the counter-argument will be "oh but nony, these people dont want to be the best.. they just want to improve in their own niche in starcraft, and they can do so by considering the tips and advice of their peers on teamliquid" and my response would be that although i execute starcraft.exe, join games, and hit the keys and move my mouse like them, i am playing an entirely different game.. and i dont understand the enjoyment that they get out of theirs =[

Muhweli

Finland5328 Posts

August 29 2004 04:29 GMT

corsairs are a good start -.-v

ToKoreaWithLove

Norway10161 Posts

August 29 2004 04:32 GMT

To quote one of our great korean posters, and somone he quoted:

"you can tell if he is going muta or lurker by looking at the ling and game flow"
(garimto)

There is no way you can expect to scout the zerg. If it is a 2 gas map and he got his expo safe it is all about your ability to pressure and keep him spending his money - and take your exp before he has lurkers out. PvZ IS hard - prectice.

MiniRoman

Canada3953 Posts

August 29 2004 04:41 GMT

I'm a fan of 1 gate temp tech PvZ. You want to basically, try to pump non-stop lots while teching to citadel. Once you through down your citadel, get a 2nd gate and keep lot pump. Then you get archives/speed once citadel is done. Make 2 temps and get the archon. Around this time is when you want to lay down cannons cuz now is when a muta/lurk rush will happen. Go out and test his waters, do any damage you can and expand. Once your expo is up, gate up and start your army.

It takes a lot of practice to know what they are doing. If you get lucky and scout a hydra with probe scouts then lay back on he mineral cannons, just make 2 in case of fast lurk drop and focus on your expo.

It's hard to explain this MU over a forum because it is mainly a feeling and you don't get it by reading something.

RiSE

United States3182 Posts

August 29 2004 04:42 GMT

#10

Thanks for your input.

On August 29 2004 13:27 NonY wrote:
i dont recall any of the current best players becoming so skilled by reading advice on a messageboard.. why are so many people convinced that it's the smart thing to do now? who are these people on the top that got there from reading this shit?

perhaps the counter-argument will be "oh but nony, these people dont want to be the best.. they just want to improve in their own niche in starcraft, and they can do so by considering the tips and advice of their peers on teamliquid" and my response would be that although i execute starcraft.exe, join games, and hit the keys and move my mouse like them, i am playing an entirely different game.. and i dont understand the enjoyment that they get out of theirs =[

I don't quite know why you're saying this on a brood war forum, but okay.

Tien

Russian Federation4447 Posts

August 29 2004 06:02 GMT

#11

its the best advice you are ever going to get Rise. You dont learn starcraft by listening to people talk about it. You learn by playing the game and watching A LOT of reps. It also seems like whenever someone losses once or twice they immediately go on Teamliquid.net and start asking advice.

The best advice is to download a shitload of winning pvz games and copy what the pros do. Then play the game and mimmick those strategies as much as you can.

And dont give me that "oh but I dont wanna copy people, I wanna be original" crap. If you wanna win then do what you gotta do to win.

EDIT: Go download those replay packages on starcraftgamers.com. Do exactly what Nal_Ra, reach, and kingdom do.

NeverTheEndlessWiz

Singapore827 Posts

August 29 2004 06:05 GMT

#12

coz its alot better to learn from someone on bnet =P

ApollyoN

United States1297 Posts

August 29 2004 06:44 GMT

#13

You cant just copy replays and strategies, thats retarded. You'll never learn the game that way, just watch your own replays that you lose, clean up your builds, and try to actually understand the matchup. Think your way through each game and play a lot, you'll improve a quickly.

But using good builds is important, you have very small windows for success in PvZ.

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

August 29 2004 06:48 GMT

#14

Don't make sair if you 2 gate.
If in doubt; 2 templar and make an archon.
If you know den tech, 1 ht 1 dt.
If you know spire, obviously 1 archon. No you do not make more than one archon, just expo and get goon storm.

DT scouting the most probable place of expansion on patrol between nat and expo, most zergs send ol so basically you just want to get the drone so he has to send another one.

Halt zealot production after your expo, robo as soon as you have secured front and main with cannon ht (all depends on situation and zergs tech) and mass unless he's doing something obscure.

Bringing more than 3 hts when you attack is usually not good as you won't be able to use all.

Make a shuttle as soon as robo completes so you can cannon your own cliff (it helps a lot) or just storm drop.

2 gate = good, 1 gate = risky especially if you are palying ladders or julyzerg wannabes (you'll die unless forge or battery). 6 o clock being the exception pretty much, sair dt strong there.

Don't do stuff like 1+ after your citadel, make sure you time it right. I mean, that's usually too late -.-;;

Bleh, but this is really just stuff I've found out through tips and most of all PLAYING A LOT.. Lots of this might not work for you, PvZ can be played in more ways than one you just need great timing.

Timing, timing, timing, timing, timing.
(Like that video with that guy repeating 'development development development development development development' someone posted on here)

Timing is no.1, good storm, good micro macro and multitask is of course important but timing is #1!

STIMEY d okgm fish

Canada6140 Posts

August 29 2004 07:15 GMT

#15

you can learn from replays if you are actually trying to figure out what decisions they are making and what the decisions are based on. if you can actually model what they must be thinking in your mind, that's the first step to getting something useful out of a replay. there are many more steps before you can actually use it in your play though.

Tien

Russian Federation4447 Posts

August 29 2004 07:19 GMT

#16

On August 29 2004 15:44 ApollyoN wrote:
You cant just copy replays and strategies, thats retarded. You'll never learn the game that way, just watch your own replays that you lose, clean up your builds, and try to actually understand the matchup. Think your way through each game and play a lot, you'll improve a quickly.

But using good builds is important, you have very small windows for success in PvZ.

If you incorporate the mindset and use the protoss vision only you will succeed a lot. Trust me. I used to do this and I got from around a c2-c3 noob all the way to b3 in 2 seasons. Im not saying im a pro or anything but I can say that watching professional replays have helped A LOT.

You have to see exactly what these pros do whenever they are faced with a certain situation. Or how do they defend their base when being dropped, or how do they fight ledges, or how do use their army to attack. Watching your replays only is retarded. What new things are you ever gonna learn?

mmm.beer

Canada412 Posts

August 29 2004 07:33 GMT

#17

Alot of toss that try to have their cake and eat it too. They want to 2 gate zeal rush...and make a sair or two...and expo...and research storm....and....

They are completely unprepared for at least one of (a) mass lings, (b) muta, or (c) lurk + drop. Of which the zerg can choose 2 of to go after you in a short period of time.

nortydog

Australia3067 Posts

August 29 2004 18:10 GMT

#18

On August 29 2004 16:33 mmm.beer wrote:
Alot of toss that try to have their cake and eat it too. They want to 2 gate zeal rush...and make a sair or two...and expo...and research storm....and....

They are completely unprepared for at least one of (a) mass lings, (b) muta, or (c) lurk + drop. Of which the zerg can choose 2 of to go after you in a short period of time.

the problem is we dont get a cake to start off with

Orome

Switzerland11984 Posts

August 29 2004 21:42 GMT

#19

If you just copy reps, you might be able to copy what they do in certain situations and be successful for some time, but what you have to do, is understand why some things are good. All those pro-strats are pro-strats for a reason, and there's a reason they're good and you might be able to copy progamers in certain situations, but without the real understanding, you won't know what to do in half of the situations you'll be in, no matter how many reps you have watched.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36399 Posts

August 30 2004 06:25 GMT

#20

nobody is saying copy the pros exactly to the point where you're mindless and don't understand why you are doing things. it's not "just copying reps" when you watch pro replays and mimic their builds and actions... they are the best and it's the best and most legitimate form of improvement. naturally you will change around some stuff (like extra gates because your macro isn't as good as theirs, etc). it's synonymous with trying to mimic nba players when improving in basketball... sure you can't dunk or hit a three as well as them but you can watch their footwork, shooting stroke, fakes, etc.