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Hello, welcome to this gigantic thread of suggestions for improvement of the game design for Starcraft 2. Every single change here fills certain roles that helps improve the game. These roles include finding a more niche role, finding a broader role to get rid of the hard counter system evident in certain units, making the game more enjoyable to play, making it so the races are more similar in apm requirements and finally balancing the game. I will propose changes and explain my reasoning for each change to make sure everyone knows where I’m coming from.
For people wondering why I should be listened to because you think the quality of writing isn’t enough well I am high platinum player on the NA server and a mid diamond player on Korea while playing random and playing probably half the amount of my opponents. I also constantly watch pro games so I have strong knowledge of the game and how it works. I have also played multiple games for the last 8 years and if you can name a game I could propose a change that it would make it better. Anyway on with the thread~
TERRAN:
Tech Lab build time increased by 10 seconds: Slows down Terran tech by a slight margin so that Zerg can have more time to adequately respond to whatever build Terran throws at them. Also slows down some of the reaper and marauder timings that Terran can throw out Toss.
Mule now has a 30 second cool down: Punishes terran for having 200/200 energy. More of a macro mechanic and less of a “cool I can throw down 4 mules”! Also makes the gold expansions less ridiculous for Terran.
Marauders concussive shell is now a spell with a 5 second cool down that you can make an auto cast spell: Makes it possible to micro against marauders, while creating micro opportunities for Terran. Makes it so terran can’t punish aggressive play as easily while making even more opportunities for better play for good micro players.
Hellion’s Infernal Pre-Igniter now does 5+ damage to everything instead of 10+ damage to light: Instead of hellion’s just absolutely demolishing light units and sucking against everything else, this change would make it a viable unit for fighting regular army’s while still being proficient against light. Making it less of a true hard counter by broadening its role.
Thor’s Anti Air is no longer area of effect, but the missiles now do 25 damage: A completely ridiculous unit that punishes all units. A 400 HP unit with that amount of damage and that build time should not have AoE damage. Still makes it a viable unit for Anti air, but less of a hard counter and makes Mutalisks actually viable.
Turrets now deal 2 less damage, health is decreased by 50 HP, and build time is increased by 10 seconds: Terran now has to have adequate anti air and can be punished for skimping on air defense. Turrets are currently ridiculous in every way especially against Mutalisks and are currently an I Win button against air.
Raven’s Hunter Seeker Missile no longer requires a fusion core, the research time is decreased by 30 seconds, damage is increased by 50, AoE is reduced by 15%, and now costs 75 energy: Makes it viable to get and is similar to Irradiate, provides terran with a counter to Mutalisks and provides AoE damage. Opponents to Terran can also micro against it unlike irradiate so creates even more micro. Makes Raven’s even more of a viable unit.
Raven’s Auto Turret is now 25 energy while dealing 1 less damage: Makes it still viable to make auto turrets and again more versatility and viability for Ravens.
Viking’s now have 8 ranges while the attack animation time is decreased: Makes it so that Vikings can’t punish air as hard in there ball. To make up for this you can now micro them more effectively so players still can micro them effectively. Better players can now stand out even more in the micro department.
Sensor Towers have 25% smaller range: Just a small change so that they aren’t as good. Nothing much~
Bunkers now only salvage 75 minerals: Makes them still viable, but punishes terran slightly for making them.
ZERG:
Roaches are now 1.5 supply and spawn in 2’s, with the cost being 150 minerals 50 gas, while the build time is now 35 seconds: Makes roaches more viable late game and in general more interesting units. Roaches now threaten more early game as well.
Infestor now has a dark swarm esque spell that makes ranged units do 50% less damage while attacking the units inside the cloud, the spell has a 125 energy cost. : Helps Zerg bust defensive positions and punishes non mobile units. It won’t be as game changing as dark swarm as there is no consume and because ranged units still can deal damage through the cloud. Just adds more dynamics to the ZvT matchup.
Banelings do 25% less AoE damage: Doesn’t punish marines as much and allows for micro opportunities for Terran. Banelings still will decimate marines, but Terran can now prevent as much losses if microed correctly.
Corruptor’s corruption spell now is a small AoE spell: Increases there viability and makes it less of a WC3 spell, while not making it gamebreaking.
Certain zerg units now move 25% faster off creep, while on creep speed is the same: Allows for micro opportunities off creep while still maintaining the creep dynamic. Allow units like hydras, roaches, and ultralisks to be effective even if there off creep. Lets Zerg be more aggressive early game while still maintaining the creep dynamic.
PROTOSS:
Feedback now has 11 range, but no longer deals damage: Now lets the other races actually make spell casters without being punished extremely. With the 11 range HT vs. Ghosts fights should be extremely dynamic and the better micro players should usually win.
Archon now deals 10 more damage on ground and 5 more damage to air: Increases the viability in Templar tech and makes archon have more of a role instead of being just a recycled unit. Makes them more viable while compared to colossus and robo tech in general.
Charge build time is now 110 seconds compared to 140: Increases the viability of templar tech and lets there be more timings to incorporate charge in the mid and early game. Helps Protoss punish certain builds without having to go robo tech and increases the dynamics of certain matchups and especially in PvT.
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ITT: Nerf Terran to oblivion and buff zerg and protoss.
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On August 12 2010 07:18 ig0tfish wrote:
ITT: Nerf Terran to oblivion and buff zerg and protoss.
couldn't agree more
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Not only do I really dislike some of your balance changes, but I really dislike everyone posting their own balance suggestions in these forums. Post it as a blog, that's what I did during the beta (http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=129312), although it never got any views, because it wasn't a serious proposal but rather "how I would like to view the game."
However, I'm fearful of these threads I feel a million of these threads would pop up if people got the idea they are allowed (are they??). Things like Thor AOE dmg removal isn't practical (it was like that in beta). But as said, I disagree with like 80% so I don't want to make a long post describing why I disagree.
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Patch 1.1.0 changes:
TERRAN:
-Removed every unit from the game, except the Marine.
-Marines now cost 300 minerals and 200 gas.
-Barracks takes 1200 seconds (was 60).
ZERG:
-Added Lurkers, Brutalisks, and the Queen of Blades into the game.
-Zerglings now cost 0 supply.
PROTOSS:
-Carriers now can build 50 interceptors.
-Mothership replaced with Purifier.
-Building DTs now causes you to automatically win the game.
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i think you made a mistake with the title, this thread should be called "how to turn sc2 into a really broken and crap game".
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XEL'NAGA:
-Added race to the game.
-Xel'Naga only have one unit, the Ultrazealisk. It costs 100 minerals, has no special unit type, has 450 hp / 650 shields, and its attack is an area-of-effect attack that deals 75 damage. Takes 30 seconds to build.
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You should mail this to blizzard.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Feedback needs to really do damage, but if it had 11 range it would mean that BC's would never, ever be able to Yamato anything and ghosts would never be able to EMP anything either. As all you'd need to do, is have an observer nearby and you could feedback well out of the EMP range.
You're saying Ravens need more versatility, but the thing is, they already have enough as it is and people are complaining that Terran are too versatile as it is. Vikings need the range to deal with the Broodlords/Collosus, without it, Terran wouldn't have a decent way of actually killing them. Thors also die pretty quick to Mutalisks as it is, if they just spread out their mutas, making the AOE do nothing and Thors in a single shot don't really do all that much damage, it's the splash that really hurts. Vikings also get owned pretty hard by Void Rays and it's already hard enough to try and out micro voidrays as you're far too slow, if they had a lower range, it would basically mean Vikings (one of the only decent counters to mass void ray, pointless)
Roaches could do with 1.5 supply, but wouldn't that make massive all in roach builds really hard to deal with? Also late game it would mean you would kill a 200 army of a zerg and within seconds they could almost have 200 supply worth of roaches again out of their like 6 hatcheries instantly while Protoss and Terran are still trying to rebuild their units.
Ultralisks seem pretty damn fast off creep whenever they're destroying anything I have as Terran, please don't make them faster. Hydras are the only ones who seem slower off of creep, but you shouldn't really be trying to fight off of creep, that's why the creep mechanic was added. I mean speedlings are super, super fast on creep, Hydras are much faster too.
I like the Corruption idea, it'd kind of be a reverse Dark Swarm forcing the Terran to unsiege or the Protoss to move his units, giving the zerg a chance to attack a meching Terran (much to my disliking), but it gives more chances to attack unless the other player thinks they can handle it.
Sensor towers seem fine, especially as they cost so much. Bunkers losing 25 minerals I can deal with, it's just sometimes, especially against a 4 gate push, if you don't get bunkers you lose, so you really need to atleast get alot of your minerals back, as once you've defended, you don't want empty bunkers just sat there, that's why they added the mechanic as the bunker itself can't really do anything. It'd also mean blocking an expansion with an empty bunker would still be viable, but you'd lose something for it.
Mules shouldn't have a cooldown, you shouldn't punish a Terran for not using Mules, especially when it's late game especially in TvT when you're both on like 5 bases all saturated there's just no reason to spend your energy during some points of the game, even on scans as you can generally see most of the map with scouting units.
As much as I don't want to say this, I don't get the Turrets are too powerful argument. Even with 3 turrets, if the mutas focus fire them, they die so fast when I use them. I'm not sure why my game seems to be different from everyone elses, but they cost 100 minerals which is such a horrible cost to have to spend as it is while trying to get units, especially when I'm forced to make like 8 turrets in my nat and main (both counted). That's 800 minerals won't go into my army, and I swear either my game is different to everyone elses, but my turrets die so fast unless I have like 10 SCVs trying to repair it. You could also bring in an overseer and contaminate (or whatever it is) each of the turrets and just kill them off that way, like some people used to with Corrupters back in beta.
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UNDEAD:
-Ghouls cost 60 minerals (was 50 gold).
-Ghouls can no longer devour zerglings.
-Death and Decay duration decreased to 20 seconds (was 30). No longer affects flying units.
-Fixed a bug where using a Neural Parasite on a Necromancer would cause it to grow to three times its normal size.
-Protoss can no longer feedback units with Mana, only units with Energy.
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I wonder what would have happened if the community that we have now existed when Brood War was released. What is a game without useful skills toi have but a miserable pile of zerglings?
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Wow, these are completely overboard and unrealistic. You can't just throw out tons of balance changes like this and expect the game to work. This is literally the worst balance suggestion thread I've ever seen on here.
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I think that although some of these points could be put into effect, others of them are VERY, VERY bad, in particular the alteration of the hellion. Some of these could be put into effect, but by adding them all at once you would ruin the game.
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Yeah the Undead changes were especially bad.
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So, I'll go through the list with an eye towards not breaking the game. Everything needs to be tested, of course, and I'll only comment on the ones I find objectionable.Mule now has a 30 second cool down: Punishes terran for having 200/200 energy. More of a macro mechanic and less of a “cool I can throw down 4 mules”! Also makes the gold expansions less ridiculous for Terran.
If you did that, you'd have to do the same to the Chrono Boost mechanic.Thor’s Anti Air is no longer area of effect, but the missiles now do 25 damage: A completely ridiculous unit that punishes all units. A 400 HP unit with that amount of damage and that build time should not have AoE damage. Still makes it a viable unit for Anti air, but less of a hard counter and makes Mutalisks actually viable. I approve of this, though I'd be worried for a couple reasons. 1) Mutas CAN beat thors rather easily if spread out. 2) Might nullify viking usage, making mech a tad stronger and harder to surprise.Turrets now deal 2 less damage, health is decreased by 50 HP, and build time is increased by 10 seconds: Terran now has to have adequate anti air and can be punished for skimping on air defense. Turrets are currently ridiculous in every way especially against Mutalisks and are currently an I Win button against air.
You have to understand that turrets are the only static defense for terrans that's affordable, excluding bunkers since they need barracks units to be manned. You'd likely have to hurt spore crawlers, and possibly cannons to even this out. Worth trying/testing though, if they were still making changes.Raven’s Hunter Seeker Missile no longer requires a fusion core, the research time is decreased by 30 seconds, damage is increased by 50, AoE is reduced by 15%, and now costs 75 energy: Makes it viable to get and is similar to Irradiate, provides terran with a counter to Mutalisks and provides AoE damage. Opponents to Terran can also micro against it unlike irradiate so creates even more micro. Makes Raven’s even more of a viable unit.
I LOVE this change, but they already don't require a fusion core, and the splash is already negligible.Sensor Towers have 25% smaller range: Just a small change so that they aren’t as good. Nothing much~ I'd argue that 25% is a bit more than a "small change." And Sensor towers can bite you in the ass, when what you think is a troop movement turns out to be a worker transfer or vice versa. Lots of options for your opponent to trick you. Bunkers now only salvage 75 minerals: Makes them still viable, but punishes terran slightly for making them.
Losing 25 may be a bit too harsh. To me, it feels like bunkers are just like spinecrawlers; you can move them around without investing more. I'd like to see an increase in build time, or, more directly, an increase in salvage time.Roaches are now 1.5 supply and spawn in 2’s, with the cost being 150 minerals 50 gas, while the build time is now 35 seconds: Makes roaches more viable late game and in general more interesting units. Roaches now threaten more early game as well. The only issue would be late game, as it effectively nullifies the larvae mechanic limiting unit production. It's something you'd have to closely monitor.Banelings do 25% less AoE damage: Doesn’t punish marines as much and allows for micro opportunities for Terran. Banelings still will decimate marines, but Terran can now prevent as much losses if microed correctly. Banelings were a problem when? If anything I'd like to see an increase in health, especially if you lower the splash.Corruptor’s corruption spell now is a small AoE spell: Increases there viability and makes it less of a WC3 spell, while not making it gamebreaking. WC3 was all about auras and such. But other than that, seems like a good change. Perhaps have it nullify static defenses like the old corruptionCertain zerg units now move 25% faster off creep, while on creep speed is the same: Allows for micro opportunities off creep while still maintaining the creep dynamic. Allow units like hydras, roaches, and ultralisks to be effective even if there off creep. Lets Zerg be more aggressive early game while still maintaining the creep dynamic. That seems a rather roundabout fix. I'd rather creep just spread faster/cost less energy.
Everything else seems great. Good thoughts on everything!
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On August 12 2010 07:38 iEchoic wrote:
Wow, these are completely overboard and unrealistic. You can't just throw out tons of balance changes like this and expect the game to work. This is literally the worst balance suggestion thread I've ever seen on here.
That can be said of any thread with more than one post. Take LaLush's TvZ balance thread. If you applied all, hell if you applied half of those, the game would be in chaos.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 12 2010 07:59 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 07:38 iEchoic wrote:
Wow, these are completely overboard and unrealistic. You can't just throw out tons of balance changes like this and expect the game to work. This is literally the worst balance suggestion thread I've ever seen on here. That can be said of any thread with more than one post. Take LaLush's TvZ balance thread. If you applied all, hell if you applied half of those, the game would be in chaos.
The difference is that Lalush makes it explicit that he doesn't expect them all to be lumped together and used.
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On August 12 2010 07:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 07:59 MythicalMage wrote:On August 12 2010 07:38 iEchoic wrote:
Wow, these are completely overboard and unrealistic. You can't just throw out tons of balance changes like this and expect the game to work. This is literally the worst balance suggestion thread I've ever seen on here. That can be said of any thread with more than one post. Take LaLush's TvZ balance thread. If you applied all, hell if you applied half of those, the game would be in chaos. The difference is that Lalush makes it explicit that he doesn't expect them all to be lumped together and used.
That's fair enough. It's all truly conjecture. No one really knows what Blizzard will do next, if anything.
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I can support small changes to tweak the game and to refine balance, but I just laugh at suggestions that completely alter the way the game is played and basically mean you have to start over from a balance perspective.
Pretty much the only changes I liked were the 10 second increase to tech lab and the cooldown on the mule.
Also, mutas are viable, even if he has thors. They happen to be quite slow while your mutas are fast.
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EPT
