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SC2 Optimal worker saturation

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
February 24 2010 14:30 GMT
#1
How does the worker saturation / diminishing returns system work in starcraft 2? In BW it was basically just more workers > faster mining although the rate of increase gradually went down.

How does it compare to Starcraft 2? I heard with better AI its a lot more complicated, and in some instances having more workers might lower income? I don't know much about this so I'll let the more knowledgeable post their opinions
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
magz4
Profile Joined December 2009
United States9 Posts
February 24 2010 15:31 GMT
#2
2 per field at the minimum for proper saturation. Any more than 3 per field is effectively useless for anything besides maynarding.
Volshok
Profile Joined August 2008
United States349 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-30 22:23:44
February 24 2010 16:08 GMT
#3
Previous info was incorrect, as per Orb's post:


6:
Zerg: ~248
Protoss: ~248

10:
Zerg: ~419
Protoss: ~419

14:
Zerg: ~590
Protoss: ~590

18:
Zerg: ~705
Protoss: ~705

22:
Zerg: ~762
Protoss: ~762

Here is the replay of the test game proving this:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uyqjjdymmhy

edit: also here's the ratios of going from step to stop going up 4 workers:
6>10
worker ratio: 1.6667
Mining ratio: 1.6895

10>14
worker ratio: 1.4
mining ratio: 1.4081

14>18
worker ratio: 1.2857
mining ratio: 1.1949

18>22
worker ratio: 1.2222
mining ratio: 1.0809

as you can see you're getting basically 1:1 bang for your buck up to 14 workers, but after that your payoff per worker added drops and it gets less and less efficient to add workers.


Along with Zeke's info

Also, note that each worker has a walking speed of 2.8125. Every single one. There are also NO known differences in mining speed.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123657
tabako
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35 Posts
February 24 2010 16:48 GMT
#4
Why would it vary by race? I must be missing something pretty basic here...
Zavior
Profile Joined August 2009
Finland753 Posts
February 24 2010 16:57 GMT
#5
On February 25 2010 01:48 tabako wrote:
Why would it vary by race? I must be missing something pretty basic here...


My guess would be that it varies by race because... the workers are different! At least zerg workers move a bit faster on the creep if I'm not completely mistaken
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-24 17:02:39
February 24 2010 16:59 GMT
#6
On February 25 2010 01:08 Volshok wrote:
I don't have Terran.

Show nested quote +
Toss:
12Probes: 457-533
16Probes: 629-686
20Probes: 725-781
22Probes: 743-819
+24Probes: 762-838+
26Probes: 762-838
30Probes: 781-857
34Probes: 781-857

24-26 Probes is full saturation on 8 minerals


Show nested quote +
Zerg
16 drones 925
17 drones 945
18 drones 990 -- 995
19 drones 1040 -- -1050
22 drones 1080
32 drones 1060

19-20 Drones is full saturation on 8 minerals



Both of these numbers were taken from posters on this board, but I didn't grab the names. Sorry to the OPs, I copy-pasted these for friends on another forum.


ill add another perspective that supports the statement above about Zerg:

According to the income tool in the replay on a 8 mineral field 8 drones gather around 300-350 minerals. 16 drones will gathers around 2x 300-350 =600-700. The soft cap of mining per base is close to 8x3 drones, after this each drone mine 50% less until you reach 8x4 which is the hard cap where additional worker won't make more resources.

Once you have reached 8x2 drones each new drone you produce after that will gather roughly half the minerals of a drone, if you make 4 additional drones after the 8x2 you will in reality only get minerals from 2 drones. If you make 8 additional drones after the 8x2 you will only be getting minerals from 4 drones. any more drones after 2x8 plus 8 is a waste of resources and supplies.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
February 24 2010 17:11 GMT
#7
On February 25 2010 01:08 Volshok wrote:
I don't have Terran.

Show nested quote +
Toss:
12Probes: 457-533
16Probes: 629-686
20Probes: 725-781
22Probes: 743-819
+24Probes: 762-838+
26Probes: 762-838
30Probes: 781-857
34Probes: 781-857

24-26 Probes is full saturation on 8 minerals


Show nested quote +
Zerg
16 drones 925
17 drones 945
18 drones 990 -- 995
19 drones 1040 -- -1050
22 drones 1080
32 drones 1060

19-20 Drones is full saturation on 8 minerals



Both of these numbers were taken from posters on this board, but I didn't grab the names. Sorry to the OPs, I copy-pasted these for friends on another forum.


Holy shit why is it THAT much different for Zergs? Was this intentional :O?
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
Drunken.Jedi
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany446 Posts
February 24 2010 17:29 GMT
#8
On February 25 2010 01:57 Zavior wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2010 01:48 tabako wrote:
Why would it vary by race? I must be missing something pretty basic here...


My guess would be that it varies by race because... the workers are different! At least zerg workers move a bit faster on the creep if I'm not completely mistaken

I'm pretty sure that drones do not move faster on creep. At least it used to be like that when the movement speed bonus for zerg units was first implemented. Also, from watching streams and vods, drones do not seem to be any faster on creep.
Apart from that, movement speed has nothing whatever to do with the amount of minerals you get from full saturation. All that increased movementspeed would do is to decrease the number of workers required for full saturation.


My best guess as to why the numbers for zerg and terran are so different is that one of the two players (or both) that tested this somehow made a mistake or that they used different methods of measuring income.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
February 24 2010 17:31 GMT
#9
the only zerg ground unit that does not move faster on creep is the drone.

i think the numbers are mistaken
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
MannerMan
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
371 Posts
February 24 2010 17:37 GMT
#10
Or maybe it's because it is harder for zerg to get workers because they have to focus on building other stuff so to keep it balanced their workers harvest better?

I don't know just speculating.
Queequeg
Profile Joined September 2003
Germany263 Posts
March 16 2010 17:30 GMT
#11
I just tested it for Terran, just mining minerals on 8 patches, no MULEs.

16 SCVs: 610-667, avg 639, ~39.9 per SCV
20 SCVs: 705-800, avg 753, ~37.6 per SCV, 4 more SCVs yield 29 each
24 SCVs: 781-876, avg 829, ~34.5 per SCV, 4 more SCVs yield 19 each
28 SCVs: 781-876 ==> 24 = saturated

So if you have 20 SCVs mining, and you add another SCV, it will only be half as effective.
daywiss
Profile Joined March 2010
United States83 Posts
March 16 2010 17:42 GMT
#12
those numbers for zerg are wrong, it looks more like stats for 2 bases not one. from my own testing zerg 1 base looks closer to the toss numbers, i was barely able to break 800 rpm.
sorech02
Profile Joined January 2009
United States15 Posts
March 16 2010 17:54 GMT
#13
On February 25 2010 01:08 Volshok wrote:
I don't have Terran.

Show nested quote +
Toss:
12Probes: 457-533
16Probes: 629-686
20Probes: 725-781
22Probes: 743-819
+24Probes: 762-838+
26Probes: 762-838
30Probes: 781-857
34Probes: 781-857

24-26 Probes is full saturation on 8 minerals


Show nested quote +
Zerg
16 drones 925
17 drones 945
18 drones 990 -- 995
19 drones 1040 -- -1050
22 drones 1080
32 drones 1060

19-20 Drones is full saturation on 8 minerals



Both of these numbers were taken from posters on this board, but I didn't grab the names. Sorry to the OPs, I copy-pasted these for friends on another forum.


I'm guessing that since he pasted this together from two sources, they each had a different time limit, as well as other potential factors I'm not thinking of. The two sets can't be directly compared in this case.
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 18:01:16
March 16 2010 18:00 GMT
#14
On March 17 2010 02:54 sorech02 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2010 01:08 Volshok wrote:
I don't have Terran.

Toss:
12Probes: 457-533
16Probes: 629-686
20Probes: 725-781
22Probes: 743-819
+24Probes: 762-838+
26Probes: 762-838
30Probes: 781-857
34Probes: 781-857

24-26 Probes is full saturation on 8 minerals


Zerg
16 drones 925
17 drones 945
18 drones 990 -- 995
19 drones 1040 -- -1050
22 drones 1080
32 drones 1060

19-20 Drones is full saturation on 8 minerals



Both of these numbers were taken from posters on this board, but I didn't grab the names. Sorry to the OPs, I copy-pasted these for friends on another forum.


I'm guessing that since he pasted this together from two sources, they each had a different time limit, as well as other potential factors I'm not thinking of. The two sets can't be directly compared in this case.

obviously you are right. it's 2 different time limits, but that doesn't matter as both show when you reach the saturation.
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
March 16 2010 18:04 GMT
#15
lol drones don't move faster on creep...have u guys even played sc1?
zerg's always required fewer workers because they don't need to maynard workers unlike the other races
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
March 16 2010 18:08 GMT
#16
So we can conclude that P and T have the same mining rate, which isn't surprising. In sc2, Zerg actually does have a faster movement speed on creep, that's why Z mines faster. When you have 2 probes or SCVs mining a single patch, there is about half a second in between where the mineral patch is vacant. Zerg's faster movement compensates for it so they are efficient at 16.
Tristan
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada566 Posts
March 16 2010 18:22 GMT
#17
due to diminishing returns and because I'm a Zerg I'd rather just nom more delicious map with a hatchery when I have 16 drones.
http://Zangano431.tumblr.com/
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 16 2010 19:26 GMT
#18
Holy shit only 19-20 drones mine 30% more than 24-26 probes?

WTF?
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 19:37:37
March 16 2010 19:37 GMT
#19
I guess one of them was timed in-game for one minute, while the other was timed with the game clock in a replay.

On March 17 2010 03:04 da_head wrote:
lol drones don't move faster on creep...have u guys even played sc1?
zerg's always required fewer workers because they don't need to maynard workers unlike the other races

The reference to SC1 is hardly relevant, and I'm pretty sure the reason why Zerg require fewer workers is wrong. This results from using the hatchery to make both drones and army units. First off, to increase production capacity, you need to build hatcheries, which you might as well do at expansions, and if you expand more, you need fewer workers. Secondly, you will have fewer workers because you need the larvae for other units.
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
PizzaHash
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands76 Posts
March 16 2010 19:38 GMT
#20
yup - sounds fair - zerg loses probe for every building
Though terran should be buffed with minerals maybe - their worker is not mining when building, but will be back when building finishes, so they lose mining time while protoss doesnt.
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