• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:51
CET 15:51
KST 23:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage1Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?1Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top? Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ?
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2 iNu's Battles #22 SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement!
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Starcraft 2 Advance [G] How to playtest arcade maps [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [BSL23] RO16 Group Stage List of top players active on ShieldBattery BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09 50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy)
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck? Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 13026 users

The Loudness War

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 01:27:06
September 02 2009 17:46 GMT
#1
I just did a quick search of these forums and it's surprising to me that I couldn't find any threads that talk about the "loudness war" in music

Wikipedia background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

My summary/opinion:
+ Show Spoiler +
The loudness war refers to the increasing average volume of recorded music over the last 20-30 years or so (it's debatable exactly when the "war" started). The music industry has been steadily increasing the average volume of their releases; which include albums, radio broadcasts, singles, etc. A major reason why it happens is because the loudest track in a song rotation tends to draw the most attention from listeners, so there is a "survival of the fittest" effect in which record companies have incentive to produce louder music. This effect is bad for consumers because it lowers sound quality and encourages dangerous/unhealthy listening volumes.

So, why should you care about any of this? Well, first off there are health effects that you may or may not know about.

If you stand at a busy intersection, the sound of traffic can easily reach 80-90+ dB in volume, even inside a car. Now listen to your ipod/mp3 player. Can you clearly hear your music over the sound of traffic? If you can, then you are probably causing permanent, irreversible damage to your ears. If you listen to your music regularly at that volume, there is a high probability that you will need a hearing aid when you get older. But why don't all old people have hearing aids then? Because you are living in the first generation that suffers from this problem. Ipods/mp3 players are new, and the loudness war which encourages increasingly loud listening levels is new.

Second, if you care about music, you probably care at least a little bit about sound quality. A recorded album cannot get infinitely louder. CD quality recording offers about 90 dB of dynamic range, which basically means you can have a range of 90dB between the loudest sound and the quietest sound. 90 dB is more than enough for 99.99999% of music. Classical orchestras tend to have the widest dynamic ranges in music, but even the most dynamic pieces rarely exceed 40dBs of dynamic range.

However, a problem arises when you try to push all sounds (both quiet and loud) to higher volumes. You eventually hit the volume ceiling of the medium, which causes clipping (very bad distortion, not the "good" distortion that guitar amps/etc. use) unless you use a limiter/compressor. A limiter basically reduces the dynamic range of music (makes louder sounds quieter and/or quieter sounds louder).

Due to the loudness war, and the excessive overuse of limiters in the modern music industry, typical modern recordings often use only the highest 5dB of a CD's dynamic range (thats 5dBs of range on a medium that offers 90dB of range). That means a whisper can only be 5dB quieter than a drum snare; you can imagine how negatively this affects sound quality. Some artists still produce good recordings, but they are becoming increasingly rare, ESPECIALLY in the genres of rap, hiphop, and popular music.


Pretty sad when you think about it. So now, the next time you make fun of popular music (mainstream rap/pop/etc.) for being crappy, you'll have objective/scientific evidence that explains why it sucks



edit:
Here is a good video explanation I just found
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
September 02 2009 17:48 GMT
#2
One word: screamo.
Peace~
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
September 02 2009 17:51 GMT
#3
On September 03 2009 02:48 fanatacist wrote:
One word: screamo.


Funny that you mention that. A lot of modern rap is actually recorded louder than 99% of screamo. Meaning if you set your music player at a certain volume, a mainstream rap CD would sound louder than many screamo CDs.
ZeroCartin
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2390 Posts
September 02 2009 17:56 GMT
#4
+ Show Spoiler +
Some artists still produce good recordings, but they are becoming increasingly rare, ESPECIALLY in the genres of rap, hiphop, and popular music.

I do not agree with this. I do realize modern mixing is pumping alot of the stuff up, but knowing how to do it is really unique. There are a bazillion of talented guys with this trend that are awesome.
"My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
September 02 2009 17:57 GMT
#5
However you must also appreciate the fact that screamo is more often than not lacking in any sort of harmonic value in the vocals, is shrill and deafening, and is not much quieter than the typical hip hop track which actually focuses on the lower tones, with bass lines and such.
Peace~
the_enborfser
Profile Joined February 2009
13 Posts
September 02 2009 17:58 GMT
#6
The worst part of being a musician is knowing that anything you record is going to end up way over-compressed and in mp3 form... i hate mp3s so much
Although, if I may, let me take off my assistant’s skirt and put on my Barbra Streisand in The Prince of Tides ass-masking therapist pantsuit
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
September 02 2009 18:04 GMT
#7
MP3s have progressed the distribution of music beyond any former boundaries available to both professional and amateur musicians. Life without MP3s would be a life without exposure, a life without options, a life without motivation to push forward and record that next song that might be a sleeper hit. Higher quality sound rates of MP3 manage to capture many of the original sounds unless you incorporate dog whistles and million watt sub woofers into your musical range, which would be both ridiculous and hilarious for anyone in your presence.
Peace~
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
September 02 2009 18:08 GMT
#8
On September 03 2009 02:56 ZeroCartin wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Some artists still produce good recordings, but they are becoming increasingly rare, ESPECIALLY in the genres of rap, hiphop, and popular music.

I do not agree with this. I do realize modern mixing is pumping alot of the stuff up, but knowing how to do it is really unique. There are a bazillion of talented guys with this trend that are awesome.


I'm not sure you understand what I mean by "good recording"

Any "loud" song can be recorded and produced at a lower volume, which improves sound quality in an objective way. The listener can then choose to make that song 100% the same volume as the original "loud" version, only they have to increase the volume on their music player slightly.

You might think that compression doesn't hurt rap, but keep in mind that it DOES affect voices and drum beats. people hear the word distortion and think about "good" distortion like electric guitars or talkboxes (tpain/etc.), but that's not necessarily true. these things I am talking about (limiting/clipping/etc.) do NOT produce "good" distortion. There is very very little good that comes out of those effects other than allowing louder volumes.
GunSlinger
Profile Joined June 2006
614 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-02 18:13:32
September 02 2009 18:12 GMT
#9
On September 03 2009 03:04 fanatacist wrote:
MP3s have progressed the distribution of music beyond any former boundaries available to both professional and amateur musicians. Life without MP3s would be a life without exposure, a life without options, a life without motivation to push forward and record that next song that might be a sleeper hit. Higher quality sound rates of MP3 manage to capture many of the original sounds unless you incorporate dog whistles and million watt sub woofers into your musical range, which would be both ridiculous and hilarious for anyone in your presence.



So now that anybody who can pick up a guitar a play a few chords can now write 'music'. Yeah, thanks for that progressed distribution oh glorious MP3. And MP3's don't come close to matching an original recording. Try listening to classical music in MP3 form and then listen to the same track off of a CD, even at high bit rates it will never come close to matching the original audio... and both will never come close to the live experience.
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-02 18:14:14
September 02 2009 18:13 GMT
#10
On September 03 2009 03:04 fanatacist wrote:
MP3s have progressed the distribution of music beyond any former boundaries available to both professional and amateur musicians. Life without MP3s would be a life without exposure, a life without options, a life without motivation to push forward and record that next song that might be a sleeper hit. Higher quality sound rates of MP3 manage to capture many of the original sounds unless you incorporate dog whistles and million watt sub woofers into your musical range, which would be both ridiculous and hilarious for anyone in your presence.


There is nothing hugely wrong with mp3s. anything encoded at 256kbps or higher (or with a good VBR encoder) is essentially the same as lossless audio unless you have a very high end audio system. There may be some sibilance and/or rolloff in high frequencies, but average listeners can't tell

The kind of compression that mp3s create is "bad," but its nothing compared to stuff that some mastering engineers do in studios.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-02 18:20:52
September 02 2009 18:20 GMT
#11
On September 03 2009 03:04 fanatacist wrote:
MP3s have progressed the distribution of music beyond any former boundaries available to both professional and amateur musicians. Life without MP3s would be a life without exposure, a life without options, a life without motivation to push forward and record that next song that might be a sleeper hit. Higher quality sound rates of MP3 manage to capture many of the original sounds unless you incorporate dog whistles and million watt sub woofers into your musical range, which would be both ridiculous and hilarious for anyone in your presence.


This is a huge exaggeration. Yes mp3s and digital distrubtion (amateur or otherwise) have allowed for greater market and audience reach for all levels of musicians, but you took it way too far.
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
September 02 2009 18:20 GMT
#12
i thought this thread was about that game where you and a friend yell "penis" or some other vulgarity louder and louder in a public place until one person gives up
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Killy
Profile Joined September 2008
United States39 Posts
September 02 2009 18:24 GMT
#13
I think there are more serious issues why "Mainstream Music" sucks, than being too loud or over compressed.
Money is your army, every dollar is a soldier
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
September 02 2009 18:25 GMT
#14
Luckily for me I listen to mostly Black Metal and MDM / Tech Death. Unlucky for me, I listen to music quite loudly, but I enjoy it so I guess hearing aid here I come when I turn 70.

Anyways dB recording doesn't matter as much as how loud you listen to the music. If you record it at 120dB it won't matter if you play it on volume 1.
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
September 02 2009 18:35 GMT
#15
On September 03 2009 03:20 Hot_Bid wrote:
i thought this thread was about that game where you and a friend yell "penis" or some other vulgarity louder and louder in a public place until one person gives up

That's what I've been doing in this thread. I thought that's what it was about?
Peace~
Shattered
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States267 Posts
September 02 2009 18:36 GMT
#16
On September 03 2009 03:20 Hot_Bid wrote:
i thought this thread was about that game where you and a friend yell "penis" or some other vulgarity louder and louder in a public place until one person gives up


that reminds in 7th grade i did that with a few friends and we got in trouble
CJ entus fighting
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
September 02 2009 18:36 GMT
#17
On September 03 2009 03:25 Aegraen wrote:
Luckily for me I listen to mostly Black Metal and MDM / Tech Death. Unlucky for me, I listen to music quite loudly, but I enjoy it so I guess hearing aid here I come when I turn 70.

Anyways dB recording doesn't matter as much as how loud you listen to the music. If you record it at 120dB it won't matter if you play it on volume 1.


well that's my point... it does matter. you can't just pick a random volume and record at that volume. CDs have a set natural range. in order to make something louder, you have to compress the sound more and more (reduce sound quality more and more, to get louder sound).

"heavy" music doesn't have to be loud. Listen to rage against the machine's albums for reference. Their albums are among the most well recorded albums in history.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
September 02 2009 18:50 GMT
#18
On September 03 2009 02:46 Wangsta wrote:
Pretty sad when you think about it. So now, the next time you make fun of popular music (mainstream rap/pop/etc.) for being crappy, you'll have objective/scientific evidence that explains why it sucks


It's not limited to mainstream music though. In fact, my first introduction to the loudness war came from hearing Eddie Trunk bitch about how some of his favorite bands were taking part.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
nicoaldo
Profile Joined March 2009
Argentina939 Posts
September 02 2009 18:58 GMT
#19
I think u can get better sound quality by recording at a higher volume, because u don´t need to amplify (and distort) the sound if u want to hear it very loud.
Wangsta
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States776 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-02 19:03:32
September 02 2009 19:02 GMT
#20
On September 03 2009 03:58 nicoaldo wrote:
I think u can get better sound quality by recording at a higher volume, because u don´t need to amplify (and distort) the sound if u want to hear it very loud.


thats not really true (CDs, and most other modern mediums, are digital not analog)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
21:00
WardiTV Not-Summer Championshi
Solar vs Percival
WardiTV726
TKL 201
Rex101
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Serral 921
TKL 181
Rex 108
trigger 52
EnDerr 6
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 73191
Rain 1923
Horang2 1120
EffOrt 871
Jaedong 772
BeSt 503
Stork 346
Snow 288
firebathero 206
Zeus 188
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 135
Rush 123
Barracks 88
ProTech87
Pusan 66
Sharp 65
Mong 63
Hyun 63
JYJ 52
sSak 41
Shinee 32
ToSsGirL 29
HiyA 26
Killer 25
Shine 20
Trap 20
PianO 19
scan(afreeca) 19
Movie 18
Aegong 17
Terrorterran 17
Rock 14
sorry 13
sOs 13
Sacsri 12
zelot 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
Hm[arnc] 8
Dota 2
qojqva1554
Dendi1196
420jenkins158
monkeys_forever147
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1283
markeloff661
Heroes of the Storm
crisheroes453
Other Games
singsing2180
B2W.Neo856
hiko738
FrodaN334
syndereN198
ArmadaUGS75
Mew2King66
QueenE60
NeuroSwarm32
Railgan25
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL84
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 6
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1976
• WagamamaTV474
League of Legends
• Jankos1982
• Nemesis1452
• TFBlade418
Upcoming Events
OSC
8h 10m
ByuN vs MaxPax
herO vs Krystianer
Percival vs Shameless
LetaleX vs YoungYakov
Nicoract vs Gerald
GgMaChine vs ArT
PiGosaur Cup
10h 10m
INu's Battles
21h 10m
ByuN vs Classic
3D!Clan Event
1d 1h
The PondCast
1d 19h
KCM Race Survival
1d 19h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
OSC
2 days
Ultimate Battle
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
4 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
IPSL
5 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-09
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.