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On August 24 2012 09:04 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up! :S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?
This is in response to XXIV, where there was extremely little discussion N1. It may have been because we mislynched the most active poster (sorry about that XD), but that night was almost completely wasted as far as scumhunting goes. My post was basically an effort to remind the newer players that posting during the night is both allowed and encouraged, as well as a way to remind myself to keep up good posting habits throughout.
On August 24 2012 10:37 thrawn2112 wrote:
-snip-
I also wanna hear what mkfuba, kush, alsn, Spaghetticus, and Dandel Ion are thinking. More so mkfuba kush and spaghetti because dandel is sleeping and alsn already promised a post.
Yeah, my apologies. I couldn't fall asleep last night, so I was exhausted when I made my previous post and crashed right afterward. My posting will certainly pick up now.
On August 24 2012 11:55 Shady Sands wrote:
Where is mkfuba? Why is he not posting?
Well this is inconvenient timing for me to wake up XD
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
You can't apply what you would do if you yourself rolled scum to other scum behavior, except in a set of very limited circumstances (e.g. scum will usually never bus their scumbuddy on D1, barring an imminent townie-led lynch on their scumbuddy.)
Why do you think Lvdr is scum?
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Bugger I F5ed my post... Okay I'll start again...
@Kush
So in the few hours this game has been running I have somehow managed to both bandwagon and lurk? This seems brash considering how tentative you have seemed to want to be so far.
I have not bandwagoned. The extent of my contribution is having agreed with Scrawn's lurker policy, but also criticised it for being too conservative. I haven't had time to lurk, as afore mentioned I am a busy person who does not have time to sit on this thread all day and respond in real time to every comment. There is also very little to go on at the moment, just because I am not pretending to contribute does not mean that I am not going to actually contribute as soon as I have something to say.
Now looky here... I do have something to say! 
I think Scrawn is doing a good job as town, this certainly does not mean he is beyond suspicion, but he has been fairly reasonable up until now.
I do however, disagree with Lvdr's assessment of Shady Sands. He has been very critical so far, but nothing he has said comes to mind as particularly proactive (I'll eat my word if he can give me a counter-example). In particular, his critique of Lvdr's comment:
filter
On August 24 2012 08:54 Lvdr wrote:
'Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.'
He said:
'I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How?'
This seems like empty criticism, as he almost seems to deliberately misinterpret the statement in order to give himself something to say. If Lvdr thinks we should lynch lurkers, but not give up actively scumhunting in order to do this, then it does not at all seem that he is suggesting these two things are mutually exclusive. Yet this is what Shady seems to suggest.
Furthermore, Lvdr has played with Shady before, and claims that Shady should by now have an idea of Lvdr's policy preference.
Soon afterwards, he had the following criticism of Fubu's post:
On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
'Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!'
He wrote:
':S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?'
This is an accurate criticism, but not particularly useful. IMO (and fubu feel free to step in and correct me) Fubu's post was poorly written and he mistakenly made his both a descriptive and prescriptive assertion: that we will all look for scum during the night and that we should all look for scum in the day and the night.
If my interpretation is correct, then this is a completely understandable mistake and speaks extremely little of some scummy motivation he may or may not have.
So far I have shown you two examples of what I believe are needlessly critical posts, that is: posts that are needlessly skeptical of things that will not help us catch scum. Now, as WeeTe has already mentioned, posting lots is generally attributed to town behaviour. However, posting lots of unproductive criticism seems like the sort of thing a scum would do to look like town but not contribute to the lynching of scum.
FoS Shady Sands
I would like to note that I am the first person to my knowledge that is acting against Shady, and IMO I am the first person to put up a decent reason to actually suspect anyone. I'm gonna get back to study, and I'll likely be unable to post for the next 11 hours, at which point I'll go through a read and post before heading to bed.
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Also, I would like to point out that kushm4sta has at least been right in one thing so far and it needs mentioning again. Spaghetticus has produced no content of his own whatsoever. This could of course be due to having daytime responsibilities(him being aussie and all) but I would like to see him take part in the discussions at some point soon.
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EBWOP: Hah, scratch that then. Gonna read what you've said.
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way.
What do you think about my read on lvdr?
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide.
Arguing about what you would have done if you were mafia is not the best way defend yourself, I get a null read from that.
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
You're 85% sure? First you open the game with "I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT." Then you suspect me of being scum because of a reason I already pointed out was flawed:
On August 24 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite.
And now you are 85% sure that Lvdr is mafia because of a reason someone other than you came up with? If you're going to assign such a high probability to someone being scum you should make your own case against them instead of borrowing someone else's.
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Oh and I apologise for the quoting format of that last post, I'll need to play around with the forum tools in order to make it more easily readable. Both of my quotes were of Shady's quote criticisms, so I have pasted in the quote he was criticising, then added his response underneath in both cases. Once again, my apologies
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On August 24 2012 12:09 Spaghetticus wrote:Oh and I apologise for the quoting format of that last post, I'll need to play around with the forum tools in order to make it more easily readable. Both of my quotes were of Shady's quote criticisms, so I have pasted in the quote he was criticising, then added his response underneath in both cases. Once again, my apologies No worries!
Actually I find some of your analysis intriguing and while I'm not as eager to suspect Shady Sands had any other intention than spur on some healthy conversation I would like to make it known that I'm backing you up on wanting an explanation.
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Spaghetticus please repost your case with proper quote formatting. It will make reading it much more straight forward.
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This is a repost of my case against Shady Sands.
I hope I'm using the tags correctly now... As I will probably be unable to respond to any criticism immediately for the next 10.5 hours, it would be lovely if any comments directed at me could be made quite salient. I'll be tired when I get home and deciphering pages and pages of text can be difficult without cues.
@Kush
So in the few hours this game has been running I have somehow managed to both bandwagon and lurk? This seems brash considering how tentative you have seemed to want to be so far.
I have not bandwagoned. The extent of my contribution is having agreed with Scrawn's lurker policy, but also criticised it for being too conservative. I haven't had time to lurk, as afore mentioned I am a busy person who does not have time to sit on this thread all day and respond in real time to every comment. There is also very little to go on at the moment, just because I am not pretending to contribute does not mean that I am not going to actually contribute as soon as I have something to say.
Now looky here... I do have something to say!
I think Scrawn is doing a good job as town, this certainly does not mean he is beyond suspicion, but he has been fairly reasonable up until now.
I do however, disagree with Lvdr's assessment of Shady Sands. He has been very critical so far, but nothing he has said comes to mind as particularly proactive (I'll eat my word if he can give me a counter-example). In particular, his critique of Lvdr's comment:
filter
On August 24 2012 08:54 Lvdr wrote:
Having learned from hapa, I think mafia tend to be pretty lurky in newbie games.
Therefore, d1 lurker lynch is a great policy. However, this should not be a reason to not be scum hunting: scum hunting is vital, and forcing reads early is how town can catch mafia later in the game.
He said:
I'm confused here: you seem to be implying that D1 lurker lynch and scumhunting are mutually exclusive. How?
This seems like empty criticism, as he almost seems to deliberately misinterpret the statement in order to give himself something to say. If Lvdr thinks we should lynch lurkers, but not give up actively scumhunting in order to do this, then it does not at all seem that he is suggesting these two things are mutually exclusive. Yet this is what Shady seems to suggest.
Furthermore, Lvdr has played with Shady before, and claims that Shady should by now have an idea of Lvdr's policy preference.
Soon afterwards, he had the following criticism of Fubu's post:
On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote:
Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up!
He wrote:
:S I don't get what you're trying to say here. If you believe the scumhunting convo will carry automatically from day to night, then why do you need to encourage activity specifically during the night as well?
This is an accurate criticism, but not particularly useful. IMO (and fubu feel free to step in and correct me) Fubu's post was poorly written and he mistakenly made his both a descriptive and prescriptive assertion: that we will all look for scum during the day and the night and that we should all look for scum in the day and the night.
If my interpretation is correct, then this is a completely understandable mistake and speaks extremely little of some scummy motivation he may or may not have.
So far I have shown you two examples of what I believe are needlessly critical posts, that is: posts that are needlessly skeptical of things that will not help us catch scum. Now, as WeeTe has already mentioned, posting lots is generally attributed to town behaviour. However, posting lots of unproductive criticism seems like the sort of thing a scum would do to look like town but not contribute to the lynching of scum.
FoS Shady Sands
I would like to note that I am the first person to my knowledge that is acting against Shady, and IMO I am the first person to put up a decent reason to actually suspect anyone. I'm gonna get back to study, and I'll likely be unable to post for the next 11 hours, at which point I'll go through a read and post before heading to bed.
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On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
Yes, my first post was policy. That's pretty much how every game starts off. Then my second post was responding to a direct question from Shady, as well as explaining why I was apparently lurking. The only thing I consider fluff is the last bit, and for that I'll apologize. When the game's just started I tend to be more liberal with what I will comment on, and the fact that Shady called me out right when I was about to post a response was entertaining.
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Shady has been accused of intentionally misinterpreting things before, but it has happened a lot when he is town. However, def is a point worth paying attention to.
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS: MKFUBA
##FOS:Kushm4sta
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On August 24 2012 12:54 Lvdr wrote:
Shady has been accused of intentionally misinterpreting things before, but it has happened a lot when he is town. However, def is a point worth paying attention to.
Kush is my #1 scum read right now based on his 85% sure post. There is no real evidence and so it only spreads suspicion without anything to back it up. Please make better reads and use evidence.
##FOS: MKFUBA
##FOS:Kushm4sta
I agree with the FOS on kush and your meta read on shady but I really want to get some actual reads from mkfuba before deciding on him.
As far as kush goes, my suspicion on him goes beyond the "85% sure" post. I want to see his answer to this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
and this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 12:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote:
So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting.
FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. What do you think about my read on lvdr? Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Arguing about what you would have done if you were mafia is not the best way defend yourself, I get a null read from that. Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. You're 85% sure? First you open the game with "I dont wana lurk but I got nothing to say TT." Then you suspect me of being scum because of a reason I already pointed out was flawed: Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:09 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite. And now you are 85% sure that Lvdr is mafia because of a reason someone other than you came up with? If you're going to assign such a high probability to someone being scum you should make your own case against them instead of borrowing someone else's.
Also, I'm sure we're all eagerly awaiting dandel lon's 2nd post.
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On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong.
If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum?
He knows they are townies because he is mafia is what I mean. Mafia knows who is mafia and who is townies. Therefore, lvdr is trying to get me lynched because he knows I'm a townie. Also I know the quality of my posts have been pretty shit, because I am new and terrible at this game maybe, but I don't see how the poor quality of my posts makes me a suspect for mafia. It just makes me easier to read if anything IMO.
But let me give you a little peak into lvdrs mind right now. He thinks, ok who is a townie i can easily target. Ah kush said some dumb shit so everyone will agree with me to get rid of him.
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@kush
something I learned D1 of my first game was just because someone is wrongly accusing you doesn't mean that they're scum
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Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
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On August 24 2012 13:21 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
What is your read on me? I'm questioning you quite a bit, does that make me scum? If you post some, as you said, "dumb shit" then people are definitely going to wonder about it.
Did you read my thoughts on alsn's description of lvdr? I think my explanation makes sense given that the point of the game is scumhunting, and asking people for their reads is part of scumhunting.
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote:
This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: Show nested quote +@kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads)
If you're town just know that it's no hard feelings in any way.... sometimes in this game people will accuse you of stuff and then you will have to defend yourself. You just gotta make sure and not do stuff like assign "arbitrary" percentages to your reads because people will want to know the reasons behind the arbitrary numbers.
I'd still like you to give a response to what you think about my read on Lvdr.
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On August 24 2012 13:17 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 12:50 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong.
If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? It strikes me as odd that you would say this since no townie should know who the other townies are. So the argument you use against Lvdr can be turned against you as well. What makes you think that the players Lvdr is targetting aren't scum? He knows they are townies because he is mafia is what I mean. Mafia knows who is mafia and who is townies. Therefore, lvdr is trying to get me lynched because he knows I'm a townie. Also I know the quality of my posts have been pretty shit, because I am new and terrible at this game maybe, but I don't see how the poor quality of my posts makes me a suspect for mafia. It just makes me easier to read if anything IMO. But let me give you a little peak into lvdrs mind right now. He thinks, ok who is a townie i can easily target. Ah kush said some dumb shit so everyone will agree with me to get rid of him.
Well you made a pretty strong statement. 85% scum after a few hours into D1 is something you have to back up with more than simply WIFOM.
On August 24 2012 13:21 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone is focusing on how I said 85 percent... That was just a completely arbitrary percentage based on how convinced I was from Alsn's post. Maybe I'm easily swayed but I feel like Alsn truly revealed lvdr's mo.
What part of Alsn's post was most convincing for you? What you said indicated a strong scum read, and I don't get a similar read from Alsn's post. As a side note, just remember that nothing you say in regard to scumhunting should be said arbitrarily. This isn't an accusation, just a suggestion for the rest of your play.
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@WeeTee
I'd like to hear from you more. I think there's enough to at least comment on the various reads that people have made. Are there any you agree with? Disagree with? Do you think any are contrived or have ulterior motives? So far I have a null read on you, but the longer you refrain from posting the more suspicious it becomes.
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EPT
