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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 24 2012 10:02 thrawn2112 wrote: By that you mean examining and questioning everything he possibly can? I gotta agree with that. Well someone has to do it. The last game's attempt to spark activity (mass posting filters) turned out to be a waste of time. | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Anyway, from skimming through the thread I have a few things that I probably want to comment on, so that will follow shortly(or, when I've made some tea and eaten a sandwich). | ||
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WeeTee
Australia24 Posts
But then damn you meta comes into play! In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum. | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote: I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town.... But then damn you meta comes into play! In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum. Could you give your best guess and reason why? You gotta give us something to work with. It is difficult when you think about meta but you should at least try to make a read. After what I thought of your other post it's looking like you aren't eager to contribute. On August 24 2012 09:51 thrawn2112 wrote: Ok that definitely sounded suspicious to me. You shouldn't act like you are relying on other players to scumhunt for you. Shady expressed the same sentiment but he has been very active so far but all you did was agree with Shady. You gotta contribute more than that! I also wanna hear what mkfuba, kush, alsn, Spaghetticus, and Dandel Ion are thinking. More so mkfuba kush and spaghetti because dandel is sleeping and alsn already promised a post. | ||
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WeeTee
Australia24 Posts
Thinking about the meta is retarded so I wont speculate aloud any more. On me and my style, clearly i'm not as precise as some of you but there's no reason that everyone must conform to full fledged suspicions. Having a few cents is an influential position in any social scene. Perhaps I will blossom with content when I see a read that I believe and something more than the pokes and prods i'm getting. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 24 2012 10:23 WeeTee wrote: I hear on the grape vine that posting lots makes you look like town.... But then damn you meta comes into play! In my opinion Shady is neither town or scum. Im agreeing with the other noob here. Number 1, I don't think looking at the meta is an effective way of determining anything. Therefore, like weetee i have no idea what shady is. If i had to suspect someone its speghetticus, who is the perfect combination of bandwagoning and being quiet to remain off the radar. Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote: Im agreeing with the other noob here. Number 1, I don't think looking at the meta is an effective way of determining anything. Therefore, like weetee i have no idea what shady is. If i had to suspect someone its speghetticus, who is the perfect combination of bandwagoning and being quiet to remain off the radar. Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. Just wait till things start getting interesting if you wanna see some epically long posts with quotes It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. Hmm you must not have read all the posts I made disagreeing with people who said a lurker lynch is the only way to go. What you said I said and what I said are almost the exact opposite. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
I tend to agree that Shady is not deviating much from his town meta, but as I said earlier I don't think we can trust meta that much in a game like this, especially since many of us are not qualified enough to draw conclusions from it. With such a small sample size we are bound to make mistakes if we focus on it too much. In fact, I think it's too early to tell from a few hours of one-liners and newbie advice even if there was some good analysis to be had from it. As for yourself, I would think that as an experienced player you would be able to offer better advice to the beginners than: On August 24 2012 09:20 Lvdr wrote: Get out there! Don't use your newbiness as an excuse! Given that, I feel that the following comment deserves scrutiny: On August 24 2012 10:11 Lvdr wrote: New players what do you think of my claim on shady? This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!". Especially since comparing meta is not something easily done during a stressful day 1 as a new player(I tried while observing XXIV, it's really confusing). So Lvdr, while I have no good reason to suspect you on anything but what I right now perceive as laziness, that could change if you don't start leading by example instead of through fingerpointing. @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. Why, for example, did players call you out in the way they did? Was it to deflect? Was it to make themselves seem overly active while they in fact were not? Was there another reason such as simply trying to help you start contributing? There is a good reason for the "lynch the lurker" policy. This because it is in the towns interest to catch scum with dubious motivations or casting blame on shaky grounds and that can only happen if we force them to speak up. Thus, the worst thing you can do right now is to stay quiet and offer yourselves up to scum casting the blame on you without themselves seeming suspicious. Instead, what we presumably want to encourage are lots of backs and forths in order to have a history on who everyone suspected and when, and for what reason(the filter button on the right side of people's posts are good for seeing this). As long as you carefully think about your arguments, no self-respecting townie should have any problem with starting discussion. Things to start discussions about can be: Who seems to be promoting the town agenda? Who are the people that look the most suspicious to you? And why! Is there someone who you feel are using bad or dodgy reasons as basis for their arguments? Looking at the thread there have been a few posts since I started writing this, will read and post more in a while. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote: This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!" I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
I'm trying to get some good discussion started. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote: (Emphasis mine)Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote: If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Someone provided it during the early stages of XXIV and so here it is in this one too. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote: So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote: Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. Woah boy. Activity is good for the town. The more stances mafia are forced to take the harder it is for them to hide later on in the game. You may jsut be inexperienced, but my play so far has been extremely pro town in order to get people into the discussion. To directly address your post, I'm shifting focus to get everyone posting. I don't know anyone who is mafia yet. I invite you to challenge my town read on Shady. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote: If it was not clear from my post, that's what I think too. However, looking at his filter it consists more or less entirely of oneliners. Admittedly they are all somewhat pro-town oneliners. We're also only a few hours into the game, but I called him out because he could probably have done a better job of encouraging that discussion.I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) My point, if I did not make it clear enough was the following post: On August 24 2012 10:11 Lvdr wrote: The claim that he is referring to is that he thinks Shady Sands is acting like he was in his previous game. This is something that I feel is not a good way to encourage someone new to join the discussion since as I pointed out, I do not feel that comparing meta is particularly easy. In fact, with only a game or two to go off, it's particularly informative or revealing either. Sure, if someone experienced really wants to take the time to compare metas, then don't let me stop you. New players what do you think of my claim on shady? I stand by my argument however that it's not a good starting point for a beginner. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. I've already warned you, this is not a game based on gut feeling and emotion. A statement such as "85% mafia" is something which needs a lot more evidence than a few one-liners this early into the game. You are providing a lot of controversy with very little thoughtful analysis. I ask that if you are truly town to take a good look at yourself and think. You most certainly do not have to blame someone else in order for yourself to look like less of a target. In fact, baseless accusation only lets scum attack you for being incoherent while in one fell swoop make themselves look like town-heroes. This with town having only to agree that you were playing very weirdly.If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. I do believe that you are simply responding in a knee-jerk fashion to our attacks against you. Take a deep breath, take a look at what you have said, and think about if you really had good reason to say the things you did. If not, simply tell us. But if you truly suspect someone, you absolutely must provide better evidence than "waaah, he called me bad!", otherwise the rest of us can't make any sense of your suspicions. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 24 2012 06:30 mkfuba07 wrote: Hi everyone! I'm going to second everything that thrawn has said, as well as mention that this goes for night as well as day. As long as we keep the scumhunting going during the day, I think the conversation will carry over into night as well. Let's just make sure we keep it up! So MkFuba was fairly active before the game started, then posts as soon as the game starts... then is silent when everyone is actually making cases--in spite of arguing for the benefits of active scumhunting. His behavior thus far doesn't line up with what he's been arguing for. Also, he's pushing for active night posting, which is kind of strange from a townie perspective. Townies usually don't think about day/night cycles in terms of activity. And finally, his meta lines up with how he played when he rolled scum with me in the first half of XXIII, so, for now: FoS mkfuba07 Reviewing the other cases posted, will add my reads on them after I get some work done. | ||
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