EPTI find that Thor/MMM/Ghost/Viking to be a well rounded late game army versus Protoss that is more forgiving when it comes to micro slips compared to pure MMM. Plus it gets rid of the excess gas you often have when going MMM. It also solves the upgrades problem Terran has when going two tech lines, you do not need the attack upgrade for Thors since they take the same number of shots to kill most Protoss units anyway so you just have to upgrade their armor.
[G] SkyMech: The Lost Terran Art of TvP - Page 8
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I find that Thor/MMM/Ghost/Viking to be a well rounded late game army versus Protoss that is more forgiving when it comes to micro slips compared to pure MMM. Plus it gets rid of the excess gas you often have when going MMM. It also solves the upgrades problem Terran has when going two tech lines, you do not need the attack upgrade for Thors since they take the same number of shots to kill most Protoss units anyway so you just have to upgrade their armor. | ||
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esiex3
United States25 Posts
On December 29 2011 01:42 rgTheSchworz wrote: Three words. Try 4 factory. Expand when you timing push his 3rd. Get armory after 2nd or after 3rd fact. Starport for raven if you get it early,else armory after 2nd or 3rd fact. After 2nd fact +1 will finish in time for your push. .Cut scvs before you push and go with 6-10 of them while you are pushing. Any 1 base fact or fact port expand will do it. +1 Hellion unsieged tanks 6-10 scvs to tank and repair and 10 marines vs your Blinkers while you takin that 3rd. Expect feedback. How does this solve the blink stalker problem? A decent blink stalker attack can hit before your 4 factories are up. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
Ok, so you 1 gate expoed, I reaper siege expanded with my fact at 23, 3 rauders out of the rax after reaper( Tlab first on the rax, no initial marine), a bunker and orbital done on my expo when my fact finishes.I can switch the fact to the Tlab.Time: 5:40-5:45. I also have gotten at least my 3rd gas, 4th if you early expoed as it is safe.Naturally siege +2 tanks out of the factory first.I scouted with my reaper,if he is alive i scout you again between 7 and 8:30. If not I scout your front. If I have NO IDEA blink stalkers are coming, yeah sure you can do damage.If i see a lot of stalkers,Or the twilight, well you just lost the element of surprise.I'll get constant rines out of my rax till 10. Already I know that your third will not be made before 11:30 or so. Why? You need a robo, decent numbers of stalkers which cost a ton,twilight and i would say 5 gates.Then i have to scout at 12:00 to see if your third is going up, so my first 2-4 hellions need to be timed so they can scout that. Scanning would be a waste considering I have 3-4 gases very early and I need those minerals for 3 turrets(twilight can mean DT's) and 3 Factories as well as my marines. Before my 2nd factory finishes I will use the rax as an add-on whore for my 2nd fact(tlab). I can delay the marine, as your immortal timing push will be late because of many stalkers.In fact, I may as well delay marines, because you will snipe them and while their dps is large, you will snipe them.2nd fact comes when i have the gas for it while prodding tanks from the first.Then, I do a little assesement, which is basically: armory or starport? If you are Really stalker heavy, and your stalker count shows me that you haven't teched, or expoed, i'll get the port for a raven and delay my other 2 facts.I will reactor the rax as i wont have as many hellions.Else i get the armory for +1, it's better for late game purposes and helps my push tremendously.I'll skip BF as I really don't need a +5 damage increase when you have 0-4 zealots. If your stalker count is low-ish after getting blink, that means DT's, chargelots, or collosi are coming. Turrets will keep me relatively safe from DT's so I proceed getting 2 reacts and blue flame before I push as I can expect zealots anyway( If you are teching to collosus/ stalker you won't hold 4 fact once +1 or a raven pdd finishes UNLESS you are getting a later third than mine.I can stop scvs the moment you throw that 3rd and roll you). I am not advanced enough to discuss stargate tech and how do you push against it. I have not encountered it as frequently as ground based protoss, and protoss air vs terran is underexplored. Ok, now for the answer to your question(How do you defend blink stalker harass?). I exposed the build first as an anticipation of ,, you can't get that many tanks'' or ,, how did you get 3 rauders''. You can't outrange Rauder/Tank as you can Rines. Here you are outranged. Since I scouted with a reaper, i know there is no stargate, and that you're probably going blink. I can skip rines, or get really few of them short-term, and get 2 factories with tlab ASAP. Basically, I abuse my superior range with my tanks, pull them back if you hit them,repair. If you blink in to snipe a tank I focus fire a single stalker while repairing my tank. With 1 tank, 3rauders that takes 2 shots to FF one stalker.So you have to be VERY QUICK with blinks, it's not like vs roaches where they do low damage slowly and at short range.You have, at GM level, a real micro battle.Plus, you really can't abuse shield regen cause i have repair and the longer you wait, the more tanks I have and I really don't care as much about the Rauders.Once I get 3 tanks I siege one on my cliff as you may be doing an immortal push, and I put that tank to be within range of as much of the 2 mineral lines and buildings as much as I can. I understand I can't cover all of those, but my goal is to bring the other 2 tanks in range of the stalkers, and If you want to hit them I pull back 2or 3 distance and THEN my sieged tank is able to hit the clump of stalkers. Once i have 4-5 tanks your blink gimmicks are over as I can have 2 sieged tanks which cover both mineral lines and buildings and 3 unsieged as well as some marines which you can't kite due to the sieged tanks. Then it's time for you to tech to something else and me to push. This is like 5x harder than bio strats | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
ChaoxTech vs VileYong The replay isn't even that old. This guy is ranked number 4 grandmaster on the NA server (Because the Grandmaster feature is broken on NA, Grandmasters has already started) and he plays Mech. OMG, that's like exactly what we were looking for: A really good player who uses Mech. Watching his replays, I came to the conclusion that: This guy makes Mech by abusing everything he can (not in this replay, but in all hisgames on Shattered Temple TvP) Grandmaster Protoss players can beat a straight out battle with a Mech army (this replay is the proof. Watch the last few minutes, and how the whole macro game falls apart) I would reccomend watching the game, maybe find a few other games where he plays TvP mech (Don't watch any of his games on Shattered Temple. They all end up the same, and I'm surprised none of the protoss raged more), and then looking if his style is similar/different to your game. | ||
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Ralara
United Kingdom3 Posts
I think the main reason this works is that protoss tend to neglect base defense, the reason I succeeded and how this build succeeds is due to the massive econ damage the helions can provide, giving the terran time to mass up that huge mech army needed. As soon as protoss's throw a few cannons down to stop the helion run-bys or sim-city a bit better this build will be hard to pull off. But until this build is a lot of fun, and nice change from the usual MMMGV -> die in the late game ^_^ | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 29 2011 01:44 TBone- wrote: Can you post the replay of blink stalkers rolling you? Perhaps we can find a solution. There is no solution. The only units that can deal with Blink Stalkers properly are Thors and Tanks, both which are slow as shit. You also need Tanks in LARGE numbers to deal with Blink Stalkers, and you need them to be positioned properly in siege mode. A 2 base Robo/Blink timing attack like Hero utilizes would utterly smash a Mech build into oblivion. There's just no possible way you can defend against it because it'll hit before you have significant amount of Tanks out. You'll outright die most of the time, or be so crippled from the harass/contain that he's on 5 bases and you just took a 3rd. Not to mention that Mech outright blows in a straight up fight anyways. 200/200 Mech ball can't even fight a 200/200 HT/Archon ball without losing. Charge/Blink/Storm is just too much for Mech to deal with half the time, not to mention any feedbacks on Thors. It's not like it hasn't been tried; lots of good players have already tried to run Mech, but simply could not make it work no matter what they tried. There is no space control with the current incarnation of Mech. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
A 2 base Robo/Blink timing attack like Hero utilizes would utterly smash a Mech build into oblivion. I disagree for certain maps. The main ones are Xelnaga and Metalopolis, as the mains have relatively small open edges. You can defend the entire Metalopolis main base from Blink Stalkers with two tanks. I do have to agree on some maps though: There is just no way you could place your tanks perfectly on Shattered Temple, and Shakuras Plateau has a relatively vulnerable main as well. 200/200 Mech ball can't even fight a 200/200 HT/Archon ball without losing. Charge/Blink/Storm is just too much for Mech to deal with half the time, not to mention any feedbacks on Thors. You don't have to go pure Mech. As a rule, you should always be implementing Ghosts in your composition (Although I haven't seen this thread mention the topic yet). After all, you get Ghosts in late game TvZ Mech as well, you can just as well make them in TvP. Did anyone see my post above? It's another guy who uses mech in TvP as well. | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
How are there Protoss that engage like that in Masters league while I'm still stuck in Diamond?  I feel like you'd have been in trouble in these screenshots if he had some multi-pronged harass going, as the ebays would slow down your ability to counter drastically (Not to mention they bottleneck your units as you try to counter). How does your build deal with the warp prism speed upgrade? How heavily do you need to invest in turrets? Can you deal with two speed prisms on opposite sides of your base? Also did you post screencaps in the OP of you BMing and pre-GGing some guy? That's a little out of place for a guide thread, imo. All that being said, I really like the guide, and will be trying this on my offrace T account in my TvPs! | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:26 DarkCore wrote: I disagree for certain maps. The main ones are Xelnaga and Metalopolis, as the mains have relatively small open edges. You can defend the entire Metalopolis main base from Blink Stalkers with two tanks. I do have to agree on some maps though: There is just no way you could place your tanks perfectly on Shattered Temple, and Shakuras Plateau has a relatively vulnerable main as well. You don't have to go pure Mech. As a rule, you should always be implementing Ghosts in your composition (Although I haven't seen this thread mention the topic yet). After all, you get Ghosts in late game TvZ Mech as well, you can just as well make them in TvP. Did anyone see my post above? It's another guy who uses mech in TvP as well. You need more than 2 Tanks to secure Metal; you will get sniped big time by Blink Stalkers. By the time your reinforcements make it up there he's taken out 2 Tanks for maybe a stalker or two, while taking out some tech labs or whatever else he could find. The problem is that unlike Mauraders, Tanks have to siege to actually do damage to large clumps of units. Ghost/Mech is too gas costly, and is simply too cost inefficient. You need to secure a 3rd, and a Robo/Blink opening or any kind of Warp Prism play will prevent that 3rd from going up for a very long time. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On December 28 2011 06:43 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: This is why I love mech pic derp lulz why atack wtf. REPLAY: http://drop.sc/80208 I don't even know what to........ First the guy collosus drops when he knows there is a starport out. Like what the fuck? Then he proceeds to take a 3rd at minute fucking 18? At minute 18 protoss at my level are on 4 bases fully maxed on 3/3 but you were both barely on 150 food without any aggression. You should've been maxed and he should've been maxed with 20 gateways. This is just a typical example of a protoss who doesn't have a clue what to do against mech. Why does he atack anyway? He just needs to mass gateways =.= and blink stalker harass/warp prism harass. Also just looked at sc2ranks, you aren't high master. More like mid-master. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 26 2011 05:53 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: I didn't know european people had a special sense for mech counters. Silly me. In all seriousness, if European players are better than American players as a whole by a whole league (exaggeration) and a half (more exaggeration), which makes sense because Europe is like 10 more countries, then they should have the refined mechanics and game sense themselves to be able to figure out how to fine tune this build to make mech work for their opponents in Sweden, Germany, etc... No protoss players have a special sense for Mech counters on any server, we rarely see it. I think I have played against it twice since launch and both times I was confused as hell. The play style is the exact opposite of bio and really throws protoss for a loop. Upgrades are not as powerful and seige tanks are rude beasts if used well(but really funny if used poorly). Also, the opening looks so much like the 1/1/1, which has to be respected or the protoss risks flat up losing to it. The best tip I have seen is using buildings to block the zealot pathing. Zealots are totally AI dependant and no one has discovered an effective way to micro them and take advantage of charge. Considering the amount of banshee harass that is going on, is it worth while to drop a seperate robo with the sole purpose of build obs? I feel that you need to be make immortals and lots of them and a lot of the power of the banshee is that the protoss has to choose between them or the obs. Also, how do you deal with HTs once they hit the field. Do you just spam cloak to drain the mana from the banshees and send them with low mana assuming they will get hit with FB? | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:26 Durp wrote: + Show Spoiler + How are there Protoss that engage like that in Masters league while I'm still stuck in Diamond? I feel like you'd have been in trouble in these screenshots if he had some multi-pronged harass going, as the ebays would slow down your ability to counter drastically (Not to mention they bottleneck your units as you try to counter). How does your build deal with the warp prism speed upgrade? How heavily do you need to invest in turrets? Can you deal with two speed prisms on opposite sides of your base? Also did you post screencaps in the OP of you BMing and pre-GGing some guy? That's a little out of place for a guide thread, imo. All that being said, I really like the guide, and will be trying this on my offrace T account in my TvPs! late game, banshees and helions are MORE than enough to stop laughable 4-5 gateway units in your base haha i thought those moments were quite funny, and hes my friend (and hes been posting in this thread too) and we've played a lot of practice games for me to really get this down. I have NEVER seen double warp prism harass, and 2 vikings are more than enough to 100% deter warp prism harass. Just deal with the first 2 immortals with your initial marine count, some tanks (Micro them back) and a banshee if its in town. Then the vikings come out and you patrol vikings + your barracks in the air space around your base and the protoss will simply stop prism harassing. I spend no money on turrets unless i am a. very ahead b. late game to slow down blink stalker base trades by killing wayward obs. c. at each PF d. late game and i feel i will be vulnerable to hidden voids/carriers. I will have tons of mins anyways so i put them up everywhere. | ||
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THEPPLsELBOW
United States190 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:42 Plansix wrote: No protoss players have a special sense for Mech counters on any server, we rarely see it. I think I have played against it twice since launch and both times I was confused as hell. The play style is the exact opposite of bio and really throws protoss for a loop. Upgrades are not as powerful and seige tanks are rude beasts if used well(but really funny if used poorly). Also, the opening looks so much like the 1/1/1, which has to be respected or the protoss risks flat up losing to it. The best tip I have seen is using buildings to block the zealot pathing. Zealots are totally AI dependant and no one has discovered an effective way to micro them and take advantage of charge. Considering the amount of banshee harass that is going on, is it worth while to drop a seperate robo with the sole purpose of build obs? I feel that you need to be make immortals and lots of them and a lot of the power of the banshee is that the protoss has to choose between them or the obs. Also, how do you deal with HTs once they hit the field. Do you just spam cloak to drain the mana from the banshees and send them with low mana assuming they will get hit with FB? lol, there is no such thing as a mech hard counter. Its called solid play vs solid play. If protoss metagames you and does stuff so out of the way just to counter a mech build, you know he will be vulnerable to a 1 or 2 base 1/1/1. Constant scouting and denying scouting, and since you have scans it should be very easy. Scans->kill obs is soooo much better than mules with mech, I should emphasize this in the OP soon. Cannons are a much better investment IMO. Cannons + blink stalkers really really shut down harass. The only downfall is once I am maxed on 3/0 you have a bunch of t1 units that can blink, but are terrible in a straightup fight (think mutas that dont even fly) I get double armory to get 3/0 and 3/0. And 3/3 air if I see a lot of stargates and I will make a full transition to sky terran, with a few thors and helions for mineral dump. A really important thing to note, is if a protoss player metagames you by going pure stalker immortal and fast 3rd greedily, you can add 4-5 barracks, cut scv, and end the game. Please always be wary of his third timing. If he is stalker/immortal heavy but not as greedy, use bunkers to help hold off aggression at your third (great minearl dump) HT's are scary if you don't have ghosts on the field. They are extremely effective against your maxed army with their massive AOE and tanks will clump up soon late game too. You must maintain at least 4 ghosts out on the field if he is on 3 base templar tech (cloak will help). In a push, if you can do an observer snipe, I keep my banshee energy at 50-75. At that point, its a waste of money for them to feedback, plus its like an APM sink for protoss (think using snipes vs ultras) so I actually prefer them to spam feedback (just not on thors, you might want to pre emptively emp your thors) | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 30 2011 03:23 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: lol, there is no such thing as a mech hard counter. Its called solid play vs solid play. If protoss metagames you and does stuff so out of the way just to counter a mech build, you know he will be vulnerable to a 1 or 2 base 1/1/1. Constant scouting and denying scouting, and since you have scans it should be very easy. Scans->kill obs is soooo much better than mules with mech, I should emphasize this in the OP soon. Cannons are a much better investment IMO. Cannons + blink stalkers really really shut down harass. The only downfall is once I am maxed on 3/0 you have a bunch of t1 units that can blink, but are terrible in a straightup fight (think mutas that dont even fly) I get double armory to get 3/0 and 3/0. And 3/3 air if I see a lot of stargates and I will make a full transition to sky terran, with a few thors and helions for mineral dump. A really important thing to note, is if a protoss player metagames you by going pure stalker immortal and fast 3rd greedily, you can add 4-5 barracks, cut scv, and end the game. Please always be wary of his third timing. If he is stalker/immortal heavy but not as greedy, use bunkers to help hold off aggression at your third (great minearl dump) HT's are scary if you don't have ghosts on the field. They are extremely effective against your maxed army with their massive AOE and tanks will clump up soon late game too. You must maintain at least 4 ghosts out on the field if he is on 3 base templar tech (cloak will help). In a push, if you can do an observer snipe, I keep my banshee energy at 50-75. At that point, its a waste of money for them to feedback, plus its like an APM sink for protoss (think using snipes vs ultras) so I actually prefer them to spam feedback (just not on thors, you might want to pre emptively emp your thors) There is no metagaming involved, a normal 1 gate expo = > Robo can reactively counter any Mech play with Blink/Obs play which will cripple you so badly you'll be too far behind to do anything. By the time you have your Factories up and running, he has Blink Stalkers/Obs harassing you already containing you and preventing you from taking a fast 3rd. If you try to all-in him he simply slows you down long enough to get his tech units out in time to deal with your Mech play. You don't even need Immortals against Mech; Colossus do just fine with their insane mobility for a unit that does so much damage. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:01 superstartran wrote: There is no solution. The only units that can deal with Blink Stalkers properly are Thors and Tanks, both which are slow as shit. You also need Tanks in LARGE numbers to deal with Blink Stalkers, and you need them to be positioned properly in siege mode. A 2 base Robo/Blink timing attack like Hero utilizes would utterly smash a Mech build into oblivion. There's just no possible way you can defend against it because it'll hit before you have significant amount of Tanks out. You'll outright die most of the time, or be so crippled from the harass/contain that he's on 5 bases and you just took a 3rd. Not to mention that Mech outright blows in a straight up fight anyways. 200/200 Mech ball can't even fight a 200/200 HT/Archon ball without losing. Charge/Blink/Storm is just too much for Mech to deal with half the time, not to mention any feedbacks on Thors. It's not like it hasn't been tried; lots of good players have already tried to run Mech, but simply could not make it work no matter what they tried. There is no space control with the current incarnation of Mech. I disagree on your last paragraph. You can strike cannon archons and immortals, use yamato cannons on colossi, emp, and use pdd. Also I'm getting really fucking sick of people trying to make points without bringing in replays or examples. I've heard this "everyone's tried it" bs but yet no one who says that brings in replays when I ask. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:26 Durp wrote: + Show Spoiler + How are there Protoss that engage like that in Masters league while I'm still stuck in Diamond? I feel like you'd have been in trouble in these screenshots if he had some multi-pronged harass going, as the ebays would slow down your ability to counter drastically (Not to mention they bottleneck your units as you try to counter). How does your build deal with the warp prism speed upgrade? How heavily do you need to invest in turrets? Can you deal with two speed prisms on opposite sides of your base? Also did you post screencaps in the OP of you BMing and pre-GGing some guy? That's a little out of place for a guide thread, imo. All that being said, I really like the guide, and will be trying this on my offrace T account in my TvPs! Ive actually taken to building bunker not ebays for this reason. You can salvage and push very quickly. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
As a reply to some which say blink is unmanageable, well I just plain don't believe that in 2base vs 2base when T gets unsieged tanks and actually lets them unsieged, with a few marines and marauders off 1 rax, he can't deal with your blink with the aid of scvs and repair. Once the first hellions are out,you can't deny scouting coz they're faster than stalkers and can take 9 hits. Once T finds that you expand greedily off pure stalker, guess what??There's a BIG timing push that comes that you can't possibly hold since stalkers cost for cost DO NO BEAT UNSIEGED TANKS, especially if +1 or a raven is on the field. You'll have pitiful numbers of collosi/immortals and most of the times you'll get A-move rolled. 1 tank 1 marine beat 2 stalkers, blink won't help once tanks can 1 shot, you can't stall cause you'll get contained and your third busted and the zeals you'll warp will be bout even with the 5-6 hellions a T can produce off 2 base.And scvs, btw. Blink stalkers off 2 base vs mech is semi-all-in. You have to do damage or you're behind in tech. And a fast third will only hinder you. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
People actually severely underestimate how hard it is to deal with Hellion drops on some maps in PvT (I played him on Entombed, and some of the spawn positions allow for the most insane drop points). I think the war of attrition really is underrated right now, but if a player goes for that and even their first harassment is successful, the rest of the game gets easier and easier. Limiting army sizes, limiting income, etc is viable with Hellions.. Terran players just must not want to sink the APM into doing that. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 31 2011 03:36 rgTheSchworz wrote: Squigly you build bunkers by your minline? Well how do you deal with DT's without turrets?Plus you need marines which are bad when they pass the dozen. As a reply to some which say blink is unmanageable, well I just plain don't believe that in 2base vs 2base when T gets unsieged tanks and actually lets them unsieged, with a few marines and marauders off 1 rax, he can't deal with your blink with the aid of scvs and repair. Once the first hellions are out,you can't deny scouting coz they're faster than stalkers and can take 9 hits. Once T finds that you expand greedily off pure stalker, guess what??There's a BIG timing push that comes that you can't possibly hold since stalkers cost for cost DO NO BEAT UNSIEGED TANKS, especially if +1 or a raven is on the field. You'll have pitiful numbers of collosi/immortals and most of the times you'll get A-move rolled. 1 tank 1 marine beat 2 stalkers, blink won't help once tanks can 1 shot, you can't stall cause you'll get contained and your third busted and the zeals you'll warp will be bout even with the 5-6 hellions a T can produce off 2 base.And scvs, btw. Blink stalkers off 2 base vs mech is semi-all-in. You have to do damage or you're behind in tech. And a fast third will only hinder you. Rofl. 12+ Stalkers picking off random Tanks/Buildings/Etc. and then running away. You make it sound like you can just instantly move units in and around your base like no problem. You can't stall? Are you serious? You just sit outside of his natural and if he even comes out you just pick off random units, blink away, repeat, and continue. By the time he reaches your base he has enough tech to deal with whatever the hell you have. You make it sound like Mech can just straight up 2 base all-in if he sees any Blink Stalker play. You can't. People have tried this shit, it doesn't work. Mech is just simply bad against any competent Protoss player. The only reason why it works half the time is because Protoss players react badly. Any Blink play RAPES Mech. Period. You have 0 mobility to deal with it. He will contain your ass and you won't be able to do anything at all. You will be getting harassed non-stop hardcore. You will not be able to afford +1/Raven/Thor/Tank/whatever in order to deal with significant amount of Blink/Colossus play, because you're too busy trying to make sure you simply don't die to a Blink into your base. There have been very good Terran players who have tried to make it work, and to a degree they got it to work, but there are simply too many holes in Mech play right now for you to be able to win. You have no ability to react to harass, no ability to control space on the map (lack of Spider Mines really hurt Mech), and Protoss has the ability to instantly close gaps with Charge/Blink and has heavy hitting with Immortals/Storm/Colossus/etc. that can totally roll Mech play. This style of play forces you to take a faster 3rd, which is indeed good against Double Forge styles of play. The problem is that it starts to leave you wide open to 2 base timings or harass heavy play. You are just crippling yourself even further by choosing to run Mech, which is notoriously bad at dealing with Prism/Blink/Immortal drop play. | ||
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