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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:30 Toadesstern wrote: how is it that this apparently ISN'T considered to be the natural thing to do I told you exactly why. People respond and talk about the posts that you're ignoring, so you have no context of what they're saying, no idea if what the people are saying about Holy is reasonable or not. Is x twisting this? Is y misrepresenting that? Is z making a fair assessment? You have no idea! | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
What I posted makes Foo' look worse than Holy/Toad though (i.e Foo can still be scum because of it with Toad being town). | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Do you just mean that you'd expect him to be stronger in his suspicions of him on n1? I mean maybe it's something? but you seem to be making a lot of it in that post | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:20 Toadesstern wrote: see this: so he agrees in principal, but you seem to have a problem with the fact that I didn't go back and read his filter and like I said, I still had 10 or so pages left inbetween to read, I still had to reread the voting section, I still had to watch through WoS filter and that's what I've done so far. Like I said, reading Holy's filter isn't even on the list of things I want to do, I'm going through foolish's filter right now and probably will take another look at prior to deadline afterwards. I just don't get why you think it's that strange that if I left them out in the first place it's so weird that I haven't read his filter when obviously other filters are way more important And what a thorough read of my filter it was. You read it so well you didn't consider anything post lynch, you didn't realize I was afk WELL before the lynch, and you nitpick and single words right at the start of the game. This totally explains how you didn't have time to read the thread and your own predecessor. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 25 2014 04:12 gonzaw wrote: Toad, what do you think about Foolishness' attitude towards you and your predecessor? I.e instantly finding Holy scummy (because of my case), but never doing anything else about it (other than fleetingly mention him a few times), to him being his 2nd scum read after Prome, to him not mentioning him nor you AT ALL after he had a 100% change of heart on Prome? I think it makes him look bad to just drop it out of nowhere, without any kind of explanation and to do an almost 180. Just like I said when I answered it from the Sandroba point of view and if what you pointed out in your bigger post is true it's literally the same thing. Want me to repeat it? That's the reason I'm in his filter right now. He did mention BOTH Holy (aka me) and Sandro early, really early and he has been going on about it + Show Spoiler [example] + On January 23 2014 06:59 Foolishness wrote: Yes Yes As I said, my posts always accomplish something (besides the one I posted before this cause you guys frustrate me to no end). You want to run wild theories that's fine by me, but I'm pretty sure you find less mafia than I do. Yes, HolyFlare lynch is good. I find that post to be the prime example of this to be honest. So he thinks Sandro is mafia and very clearly states so, but doesn't vote him, he thinks marv is mafia, he thinks Holy is mafia and I guess he was on prome around that time already? That just doesn't make sense to me and yeah like you said he completly and utterly dropped both Holy and Sandro later on like nothing happened. Marv and Prom are understandable because they voted Sand but the Sand and Holy drops are weird. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:43 gonzaw wrote: He wanted him to die on D1, why wouldn't he want his replacement to die N1-D2, specially when he had the revelation that his top scum read is town? Oh I see. Like why is he on Wave now and hasn't thought about toad so much type thing. hmm. yeah ok that's weird. For some reason it feels less far through the day than it is if you know what i mean (probably not) | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:45 Toadesstern wrote: That one, right? I think it makes him look bad to just drop it out of nowhere, without any kind of explanation and to do an almost 180. Just like I said when I answered it from the Sandroba point of view and if what you pointed out in your bigger post is true it's literally the same thing. Want me to repeat it? That's the reason I'm in his filter right now. He did mention BOTH Holy (aka me) and Sandro early, really early and he has been going on about it + Show Spoiler [example] + On January 23 2014 06:59 Foolishness wrote: Yes Yes As I said, my posts always accomplish something (besides the one I posted before this cause you guys frustrate me to no end). You want to run wild theories that's fine by me, but I'm pretty sure you find less mafia than I do. Yes, HolyFlare lynch is good. I find that post to be the prime example of this to be honest. So he thinks Sandro is mafia and very clearly states so, but doesn't vote him, he thinks marv is mafia, he thinks Holy is mafia and I guess he was on prome around that time already? That just doesn't make sense to me and yeah like you said he completly and utterly dropped both Holy and Sandro later on like nothing happened. Marv and Prom are understandable because they voted Sand but the Sand and Holy drops are weird. Oh and for the record, this is the kind of post I'd make if I were scum worried about what people think of my reads etc. Very safe, agreeable, non threatening, following sentiment. Though I guess if he was trying to blend he wouldn't say something like 'I didn't read Holy.' | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Toad can't straight up lie? Ha! | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote: honestly wave, gonzaw's case boils down to simply that central point. Well, there's also the "Doesn't push Holy at all throughout D1, just casually mentions his lynch is 'good'" stuff, and the "Mentions his lynch is good, and in the same post is wishy washy about him" stuff. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote: honestly wave, gonzaw's case boils down to simply that central point. an I want to put serious though into it when I'm not on my phone. I'm not being useful right now, just flinging shit at toad so ill bbl | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:51 gonzaw wrote: Well, there's also the "Doesn't push Holy at all throughout D1, just casually mentions his lynch is 'good'" stuff, and the "Mentions his lynch is good, and in the same post is wishy washy about him" stuff. Yeah, I don't really agree with that though. How he posted about Holy on day 1 looked quite natural to me. Mebbe I should have said that that was the point I agreed on :p | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 25 2014 07:51 marvellosity wrote: I'm gonna do to you what VE did to me Toad can't straight up lie? Ha! there's no way I would have read this game at all as mafia. I'm the laziest guy around, I can hardly push myself into reading the game when being town and when I don't have to because I consider myself confirmed through role (blues) I don't do so as town either lol Now you're probably going to claim "waitwaitwait, what about that failgame, you were mafia in there and you read it". Yes but I replaced in thinking I'm town and was given a 24hour advance warning before replacing for someone and therefore caught up with the game before actually replacing in. In this case it's literally been "want to replace? - eeehm, sure why not" and bam I'm in this game. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 25 2014 00:08 kitaman27 wrote: This is the post that still bothers me the most about Foolishness when he groups austin and sandroba in his null reads. Foolishness, I know you stated several times that you were treating sandroba as wait and see, but what are the "strong appearances" and "things brought to the thread" that you are referring to with sandroba's posts. I mentioned earlier that I disagreed with his assessment, but you didn't reply. Could you please point out what you were seeing? This is from a while ago, but his posts I saw when I made that post were: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=20#381 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=21#408 And I thought these were fine at the time. A lot of you seem to think that I'm doing things 12 hours after they happened when in reality it's been a lot closer. I saw sandroba and austin both come to the thread and start posting, and I didn't post long after that (a few hours at most). As I said, my mindset was, "well they've been kinda afk so far, but as long as they keep posting I don't have an overwhelming reason to suspect them". Look at my list where I put austin and sandroba in the same category; this is exactly why. Gonzaw kinda brought this up here but let's go through these scenarios cause it's important. Scenario 1 Foolishness is mafia Promethelax is mafia Yes, after seeing that my case on WoS during day 1 didn't have as much merit as I thought at the time, I immediately decided to bus my own teammate. Not only that but I was also under scrutiny in the thread, why would I bring attention to another mafia member when I can push a case on someone else (HolyFlare? Marv maybe?). Better for me to just keep pushing on WoS or pick a new target, no sense is putting two mafia members under scrutiny on day 1. Speaking of HolyFlare, this is off topic from my current explanation but when I went back later on and reread his posts I thought he might be town. I don't even remember why but that's what I thought. I don't like reading into people getting replaced out so I focused my attention elsewhere. If HolyFlare is town I expect Toad to be able to prove it to us sooner and not later. And by sooner I mean end of night 2 at the absolute latest. Secnario 2 Foolishness is Mafia Promethelax is town This is the only scenario out of the three that the town should be worried about as I didn't want to switch to sandroba and even said so straight up (the reason I didn't want to was because I saw Marv move his vote and I was really sketchy about him at the time. I didn't like what I was seeing last minute and I got super scared it was just town derp switching onto another town). But as I pointed out in my earlier posts what is the mafia doing the entirety of day 1 when I'm accumulating votes? As gonzaw pointed out this would only make sense if the entire mafia team (but myself) is afk (so like, HolyFlare also mafia). Furthermore, if I'm mafia and Promethelax is town, then wtf is up with sandroba's vote 30 minutes before the deadline? His post wasn't a mafia post trying to save his buddy, that was a mafia pushing what he perceived to be a safe lynch to make his team look pretty for the future days after I flip town or Promethelax flips town. I think it is even more apparent through the entirety of day 1 as a whole. Where is my mafia team to save me? Are they just afk (we all know mafia games on TL are never that easy)? The only one trying to deflect votes off of me was me. Sure, kitaman and austin both said I was town, but there was never a hard push. It seemed like their attitude was, "yeah Foolishness is town I'm sure, but I got nothing better to propose". Kitaman's push on Promethelax was mediocre at best (in terms of aggressiveness, not content). I was 100% on my own for all of day 1. Scenario 3 Foolishness is Town Promethelax is mafia Why the hell did sandroba push onto Promethelax when he could have easily just been like, "yo guys I've caught Foolishness as mafia in three separate games on day 1/2, this is a free town lynch"? Doesn't make sense. Secnario 4 Foolishness is Town Promethelax is Town I brought this up before, but go back and read sandroba's case on Promethelax. After sandroba's vote both Promethelax and I had 3 votes apiece (if I'm not mistaken here). Mafia were very very very happy with the votes at this time. Town Foolishness is under scrutiny and about to get lynched, and second in line is another town who Foolishness (apparently well-known scumhunter) is 100% convinced is mafia. Wow find me a happier mafia team on day 1 in a normal or all-vanilla game. Sandroba was not throwing his vote down to save someone or push for any lynch. Mafia were happy with who was getting lynched that day and there was no need to do anything about it. THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTANT Look at this from sandroba's point of view in this scenario. The only people with votes are two townies. He drops his vote on Promethelax with the following mindset. "Let's say Foolishness gets lynched. Sweet, I just push on Promethelax the following day and tell the town, 'yeah guys you fucked that up, Foolishness is best scum-hunter NA we gotta lynch Promethelax now'. Let's say Promethelax gets lynched. Sweet, I just admit my mistake and push Foolishness the following day and tell the town, 'yeah damn sorry about that read, this guy Foolishness is definitely mafia and 100% misled the town into a bad lynch. Many people said that lynch was bad from the beginning we should never have listened to Foolishness'". No matter who got lynched sandroba was in a great position, that is until he himself got lynched instead. Sandroba's vote was not a push to get the town to do something. No, it was lazily cast knowing that both suspects were town and he could ride it through the next day. THIS SHOWS THAT PROMETHELAX IS TOWN Look at all four above scenarios. Scenario 3 makes the least amount of sense cause then sandroba's vote is an awful mistake. Scenario 1 doesn't make sense cause that means I bussed my own teammate (when I could have easily gone after WoS from the start or anyone else) and oh btw also means Promethelax bussed sandroba last minute (keep in mind him and Hapa voted 1 minute apart so in essence they both hammered that vote). The remaining two scenarios both have Promethelax as town. Because he is. Regardless of what you think of me as well, though the above and my earlier posts should prove my innocence as well. If you guys wanna spend 9 hours going down the conspiracy theory hole then cool story bro. Or you can just look at the facts and deduce the following: Town wins if WaveOfShadow, VisceraEyes, Kitaman, and Toad all die. Also my time is very limited today and tomorrow but I will try to be here when I can. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On January 25 2014 09:35 Foolishness wrote: Look at this from sandroba's point of view in this scenario. The only people with votes are two townies. He drops his vote on Promethelax with the following mindset. "Let's say Foolishness gets lynched. Sweet, I just push on Promethelax the following day and tell the town, 'yeah guys you fucked that up, Foolishness is best scum-hunter NA we gotta lynch Promethelax now'. Let's say Promethelax gets lynched. Sweet, I just admit my mistake and push Foolishness the following day and tell the town, 'yeah damn sorry about that read, this guy Foolishness is definitely mafia and 100% misled the town into a bad lynch. Many people said that lynch was bad from the beginning we should never have listened to Foolishness'". No matter who got lynched sandroba was in a great position, that is until he himself got lynched instead. Sandroba's vote was not a push to get the town to do something. No, it was lazily cast knowing that both suspects were town and he could ride it through the next day. | ||
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