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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On April 09 2012 23:37 stevewch wrote: very well said, man. yea, bw started its pro scene because it grew big. but now it seems some people want to make sc2 become big by forcibly putting it into pro scene. that's not correct. Yeah we hear that argument way too often. The tail doesn't wag the dog. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On April 09 2012 20:39 storkfan wrote: If you want to use the america example - USA had free market CHEAP and HIGHEST quality healthcare in the world in the 50ies. Ever since then theyve been piling on more and more regulations so costs have staggered up, to the point that even crappy socialised healthcare of Europe costs less. In a sense, BW has had the same - the computer changes are like regulations that make what was originally excellent, into a somewhat troublesome experience Thats actually nowhere close to the reason costs went up but I would also say that I wonder how the computer changes could have effected BW all that much other than the windows7 issue. As a whole though I hate this idea. I enjoy watching good BW and good SC2 (I also enjoy a few other games but thats not relevent atm). The high level BW players who make BW worth watching arent stupid enough to not see whats happening so they will put much more time into sc2 than BW which will ultimately lower the quality of games that we get for BW. For SC2 with an even partially split practice schedule not to mention the fact that they are playing catch up I cant imagine seeing as high level matches as one would see watching say the GSL for a night. Even if its a seperate league entirely the players will still see whats coming and if they dont the teams will. This as a whole just makes me very very sad because unfortunetly it looks like the end of an era is coming. | ||
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Lordanubis
United Kingdom198 Posts
Also, assuming Proleague has a 'final' format (like MLG/IPL/Dreamhack do - I wouldn't know as I don't follow BW) then how exactly would that work? What happens if you end up with a team that dominated in BW facing a team that dominated in SC2? What game do they play for the final? If both, which game gets the 4/3 split assuming a Bo7? Someone would end up getting royally shafted, and it'd ruin the whole thing. You'd more than liklely just end up with whichever team gets 4 out of the 7 games to suit them winning. If this transition has to happen (and I'm still very wary of it, and would rather any converting players to be forced to join GSL instead so as not to alter how SC2 is structured at present in the way people are suggesting KESPA might alter it), then they need to think of a better way to do it than this. Absolutely ludicrous. Titles won under this format would be essentially meaningless and always contraversial. | ||
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TestSubject893
United States774 Posts
On April 10 2012 02:27 Lordanubis wrote: Whether or not BW transitioning over to SC2 is a good thing or not, this seems like a terrible idea. All that trying to play both games in the same league in such a way will do is cheapen the league. Imagine if one BW team dominates the BW rounds, and one team dominates the SC2 rounds and beats the BW team to first place as a result. The BW team would be up in arms, and vice versa if the situation were reversed - "They only won because they're better at an old outdated game/a new game we haven't practiced enough (delete as appropriate)". And their complaints would be completely justified. Also, assuming Proleague has a 'final' format (like MLG/IPL/Dreamhack do - I wouldn't know as I don't follow BW) then how exactly would that work? What happens if you end up with a team that dominated in BW facing a team that dominated in SC2? What game do they play for the final? If both, which game gets the 4/3 split assuming a Bo7? Someone would end up getting royally shafted, and it'd ruin the whole thing. You'd more than liklely just end up with whichever team gets 4 out of the 7 games to suit them winning. If this transition has to happen (and I'm still very wary of it, and would rather any converting players to be forced to join GSL instead so as not to alter how SC2 is structured at present in the way people are suggesting KESPA might alter it), then they need to think of a better way to do it than this. Absolutely ludicrous. Titles won under this format would be essentially meaningless and always contraversial. One of the only ways to get symmetry here would be to alternate sets, and have a restriction that a team needs to win by 2. This of course could result in matches lasting nearly indefinitely, so I don't see it being practical. (Although it is worth noting that tennis more or less does this, so its not 100% unheard of.) | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 09 2012 22:36 Zergneedsfood wrote: ... What the hell? This is such a blatant falsehood. Where did you ever get this analogy? O_o I think this is a pretty big exaggeration. About Brood War or health care? | ||
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PhoenixDark
United States286 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On April 09 2012 18:30 RageCommodore wrote: Would somebody please stop anybody but the OP from posting in this thread? I want to get updates on the situation, but all I read is useless arguments about BW vs SC2. Don't worry; if there are any updates I'm sure we'll have a different 80 page thread arguing about it. | ||
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Pasargadae
Korea (South)173 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:32 PhoenixDark wrote: So tired of elitist BW fans shitting on SC2 while refusing to honest or consistent. Guess what, SC1/BW wasn't particularly amazing or good in its first couple years either. SC2 is growing rapidly and will soon reach an impressive level of play Exactly which "elitist BW fans" are you referring to? I'm fairly certain no one here is of the mind that BW was big upon it's inception (or that they have even been inconsistent/dishonest in this regard). If anything, a majority of us see SC2 as mostly incapable of reaching the depth of BW simply because the game itself caps the degree of skill and strategy. | ||
white_horse
1019 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:32 PhoenixDark wrote: So tired of elitist BW fans shitting on SC2 while refusing to honest or consistent. Guess what, SC1/BW wasn't particularly amazing or good in its first couple years either. SC2 is growing rapidly and will soon reach an impressive level of play The point isn't how advanced the play of SC2 is. The point is that it cannot attract viewership at the level of BW. BW was total shit as a competitive game when it first started but it still attracted the viewership and mainstream interest that made the progaming scene what it is today. SC2 couldn't do that because it capped itself too much as a competitive game and it wasn't interesting as a spectator sport. SC2 is huge to the SC2 community...and only to the SC2 community, which has become a highly niched group of only SC2 players. If it cannot attract significant viewership, what makes anybody think that adding it to proleague is going to make things better? This is the heart of the reason why BW fans are angry about kespa's apparant decision to combine SC2 and BW in proleague because of the idiotic way to promote another game (SC2) at the potential ruin of BW. It would have been different if they had simply made a separate league for SC2. | ||
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kinray
Bulgaria49 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:40 white_horse wrote: The point isn't how advanced the play of SC2 is. The point is that it cannot attract viewership at the level of BW. BW was total shit as a competitive game when it first started but it still attracted the viewership and mainstream interest that made the progaming scene what it is today. SC2 couldn't do that because it capped itself too much as a competitive game and it wasn't interesting as a spectator sport. SC2 is huge to the SC2 community...and only to the SC2 community, which has become a highly niched group of only SC2 players. If it cannot attract significant viewership, what makes anybody think that adding it to proleague is going to make things better? This is the heart of the reason why BW fans are angry about kespa's apparant decision to combine SC2 and BW in proleague because of the idiotic way to promote another game (SC2) at the potential ruin of BW. It would have been different if they had simply made a separate league for SC2. I really dislike your point of view for SC2 but i agree that the BW/SC2 mixed league is the worst idea ever. The argument about viewership and which game is bigger is useless because the Korean and international scenes are different. What i think would be better than this mixed idea is either to have 2 different leagues or if the sponsors don't see monetary interest in BW to just have SC2 league. Let's be honest here it's not about how good BW and SC2 are it's about how much money the sponsors can make out of them. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7886 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:40 white_horse wrote: The point isn't how advanced the play of SC2 is. The point is that it cannot attract viewership at the level of BW. BW was total shit as a competitive game when it first started but it still attracted the viewership and mainstream interest that made the progaming scene what it is today. SC2 couldn't do that because it capped itself too much as a competitive game and it wasn't interesting as a spectator sport. SC2 is huge to the SC2 community...and only to the SC2 community, which has become a highly niched group of only SC2 players. If it cannot attract significant viewership, what makes anybody think that adding it to proleague is going to make things better? This is the heart of the reason why BW fans are angry about kespa's apparant decision to combine SC2 and BW in proleague because of the idiotic way to promote another game (SC2) at the potential ruin of BW. It would have been different if they had simply made a separate league for SC2. I have never played SC2 because my computer doesn't support it (yeah I know...) and I have tried numerous times to get into watching SC2, but to be honest I have never managed. Both players macro a lot, make a big ball, there is a battle in which someone manage to throw more emp / shields / storms / whatever than the other and one army is detroyed. There is also some cute harassement, but I haven't seen anything nearly comparable to the level of awesomness vulture / storm drop / reaver / wraith / stacked muta harass is in BW. I don't think it has to do with the metagame. BW was amazing to watch from the first day. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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rslee
Canada226 Posts
From what I read, it's not good. But I don't want to translate anything because I'm not 100% sure. So I'm going to leave the link here for a proper translation. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:13 rslee wrote: http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=59107 From what I read, it's not good. But I don't want to translate anything because I'm not 100% sure. So I'm going to leave the link here for a proper translation. It still says that osl still have trouble finding a sponsor and also confirm that kespa is including starcraft 2 in to proleague . Edit : Not sure if google translate is trolling me or not, but the article says that the inclusion of sc2 will lead to some players retiring ? | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On April 10 2012 17:26 Biff The Understudy wrote: I have never played SC2 because my computer doesn't support it (yeah I know...) and I have tried numerous times to get into watching SC2, but to be honest I have never managed. Both players macro a lot, make a big ball, there is a battle in which someone manage to throw more emp / shields / storms / whatever than the other and one army is detroyed. There is also some cute harassement, but I haven't seen anything nearly comparable to the level of awesomness vulture / storm drop / reaver / wraith / stacked muta harass is in BW. I don't think it has to do with the metagame. BW was amazing to watch from the first day. Whenever you say awesome harass/micro, i remember last SPL Finals. Oh man ... I agree it was a mistake trying to market the game as "competitive eSports" from the get-go. If it's interesting, (many) people will play it, and it will get big. Skipping the "journey" in favour of jumping immediately to the "destination" was a poor design choice, and led to many other poor features as a result (B.net 2.0 coming to mind). Part of the reason why for SC2's massive drop in attendance nowadays. Making the game interesting should always come first, and long before any marketing strategy. As an aspiring game-developer, i will definitely keep this in mind for the future. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:38 ffreakk wrote: Whenever you say awesome harass/micro, i remember last SPL Finals. Oh man ... I agree it was a mistake trying to market the game as "competitive eSports" from the get-go. If it's interesting, (many) people will play it, and it will get big. Skipping the "journey" in favour of jumping immediately to the "destination" was a poor design choice, and led to many other poor features as a result (B.net 2.0 coming to mind). Part of the reason why for SC2's massive drop in attendance nowadays. Making the game interesting should always come first, and long before any marketing strategy. As an aspiring game-developer, i will definitely keep this in mind for the future. Not commenting on which game is better, just wondering, where are you getting "massive drop in attendance" from? I don't know about korean GS(T)L viewers but in the foreign scene i see a definite upwards trend, not a "massive drop". | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:28 Sawamura wrote: It still says that osl still have trouble finding a sponsor and also confirm that kespa is including starcraft 2 in to proleague . Edit : Not sure if google translate is trolling me or not, but the article says that the inclusion of sc2 will lead to some players retiring ? Does it actually confirm it, which would be big news, or is it just more speculation? On April 10 2012 19:04 Morfildur wrote: Not commenting on which game is better, just wondering, where are you getting "massive drop in attendance" from? I don't know about korean GS(T)L viewers but in the foreign scene i see a definite upwards trend, not a "massive drop". The foreign scene kind of plateued a little, but 250% growth wasn't ever feasible long-term, so that's not all that surprising. GSL attendence is still pitiful compared to BW, but has slowly ticked up, even with them no longer having a K-Pop group there as incentive. The perceived drop is because a.) The ladder is less popular now, so fewer people playing, and b.) A lot of tournament are treating the current scene as the scene they've got, and are now trying to make money now instead of making money in a few years (MLG doing PPV events, etc). The latter is also because they want to protect themselves against putting all their eggs in the sponsorship basket and repeating KeSPA's mistake. Also there's a general pessimism that KeSPA entering SC2 will pretty much destroy SC2 outside of Korea because Koreans will be training in sweatshoppy BW-style team houses 14 hours a day instead of going to foreign events. | ||
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
The article talks at length about the difficulty of finding sponsors for SC1 events. However, it ends with the following: 협회 관계자는 "아직 어떤 결정을 내린 상황은 아니지만 스타2의 도입에 대해 적극적이고 구체적으로 고민하고 있는 것은 사실"이라 말했다. "The Kespa spokesperson said: 'No final decision has been made yet, but we are definitely and actively considering the adoption of SC2.'" So no, nothing has been confirmed. | ||
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DiMano
Korea (South)2066 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:28 Sawamura wrote: It still says that osl still have trouble finding a sponsor and also confirm that kespa is including starcraft 2 in to proleague . Edit : Not sure if google translate is trolling me or not, but the article says that the inclusion of sc2 will lead to some players retiring ? Google translated the last sentence in this way: 협회 관계자는 "아직 어떤 결정을 내린 상황은 아니지만 스타2의 도입에 대해 적극적이고 구체적으로 고민하고 있는 것은 사실"이라 말했다. Association official said, "The situation is not yet made any decisions on the introduction of Starcraft 2, but actively and specifically worried about the fact that", said. It would be awesome if someone could translate that article. | ||
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On April 10 2012 18:13 rslee wrote: http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=59107 From what I read, it's not good. But I don't want to translate anything because I'm not 100% sure. So I'm going to leave the link here for a proper translation. 1. The article does say that kespa has not made a final decision but they report that kespa has already talked with the korean representative of blizzard among other things, and the article suggests that they basically are going to include SC2 in the next season. 2. The article talks a lot about how they are going to implement SC2 into proleague and what format and even about totally replacing BW with SC2. Then it discusses the effects on BW fans, and the existing player base, and the worry that a lot of fans are going to leave while a lot of players might retire if they end up with a bad format (players might retire simply because of the fact that they might be forced to play SC2). 3. The article also says that kespa is pretty much forced to include SC2 because it's nearly impossible to get sponsors for BW. Companies acknowledge that a hefty fanbase still exists but from their perspective BW is just too old as a game and doesn't attract enough international viewership, which is what they are interested in (advertising their companies to the world). IMO BW is finally feeling the effects of turnover and the transition in esports to the casual, easy gaming era (SC2 and now LoL). I feel like 2012 really might be the last starleague, and this might be the beginning of the end of BW with the way things are going. It'd be hard but still ok to take in a close of BW on it's own but I'm going to be pissed if kespa accelerates the close with some stupid fuckup like a deadheaded business move. If they honestly cared about the BW fans and the players, they should decide to run a separate league for SC2. Anything else and they might as well ask all the BW fans to leave because BW fans don't give a shit about SC2. I'm not definitely going to watch some shitty combined BW-SC2 league. | ||
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